The Horn, Really!!????

[saberjustin]

I'm a little worried about the Model 3 release as it may relate to Tesla's capabilities. From what I can see, I'm concerned about their ability to handle service calls if issues with the model three occur roughly at the same frequency as issues with the S and X. The sheer volume will be overwhelming. I also think that plenty of 3 owners will expect a "luxury" experience, but aren't prepared for the commitment that comes with a luxury car (other more well established car companies have encountered similar problems when introducing a "budget" model).
Ultimately, the masses love their cars right now because nothing else compares. But if Lucid (or Jaguar, or Mercedes, or any of a number of other companies) comes out with a better product and they run a better show, Tesla's days will be numbered.
Tesla has been compared to Apple, but they're not there yet. Not by a mile. And their window is short to get these kinds of things fixed.

 

[Canuck]

Tesla caught the car companies off guard, but those companies are bigger, with more money and resources, and Tesla won't have this market all to themselves for long. Someone WILL cut into it and, when they do, they'll do it handily if their product competes and their customers don't experience similar "concerns."

I really wish they'd get off their butts and build some competition. That requires not only a compelling, long range electric vehicle, but also a comparable supercharger network -- not only in the US and Canada but Europe, Australia, etc. Plus, in order to compete on the same level, they will need more than few batteries and where will they get them from? Tesla had to build a battery gigafactory since it couldn't source as many as it needs.

You might think Tesla won't have this market cornered "for long" but there's nothing even on the horizon from any of your "bigger, with more money and resources" established car companies on any of these fronts.

Also, to suggest that they were "caught off guard" is laughable to me. You might have been able to have me buy that a few years ago. Not anymore. Now they've shown themselves to be asleep at the wheel -- or perhaps in a coma is a better analogy.

As for our family, despite truly enjoying my machine, we are going to very carefully consider, when the time comes in the not too distant future, whether or not to replace my wife's aging SUV with an X or another S. Or perhaps something else that may be on the market.

If you're anything like many of us who own a Tesla, just driving an ICE on occasion makes me cringe. I can never go back to doing that daily. I don't really buy your "careful consideration" stance since if you can afford a Tesla I think it's really no contest, and I think you know that too, deep down anyway.

Then again, I could be wrong. It just seems so foreign to me that anyone can go back to an ICE after a Tesla just because of some problems that need fixing from a brand new car company, that didn't even exist not too many years ago. Expecting no problems is what I find bizarre.

 

[saberjustin]

Come on, LOL. Tesla's splash is relatively short term, but there is strong evidence those other companies have noticed (just on Facebook, I'm regularly getting shown Jaguar's new all-electric concept, plus the Chevy Bolt upended Tesla in a major award this year) because they HAVE made a splash. Most importantly, Tesla has proven that there IS a market for electric-only vehicles. There IS clear evidence "on the horizon" that the other companies have noticed. And they DO have more money and resources.

I don't presume to know what goes on in the minds of others. I find it interesting that you can presume to judge me, or call me insincere, based upon a single post (my opinion) and the fact that I can afford a top-of-the-line Tesla. That means you've MISjudged me, sir. I think my Model S is awesome, as I said. I don't regret buying it. I also think that Tesla has some obvious problems, and that WHEN (not if) they are faced with competition, people that can afford to go in any of a number of different directions will do so. You might think these examples I have outlined are minuscule, but when a customer pays $160k plus for a "luxury sedan," which includes the Premium Audio upgrade, that customer expects to receive a machine that arrives without a buzzing, non-functioning speaker, or windshield wipers that aren't set properly, or a handle that breaks after one week. Or do you not think these things are "concerning?" I think they are. I think Elon Musk would agree. And I think that if Tesla's attitude about these things is similar to yours, they'll alienate customers and fail long term. That's my opinion.

To be clear (since it may have been missed in my first post), I want to see them succeed. But I'm experienced enough in life to know that achievement of excellence requires both an honest assessment and critical awareness of where one is, and the obstacles that exist between that place and the desired location. Making excuses for shortcomings is a setup for failure. I am NOT "Tesla bashing."

As for my careful consideration, you ARE wrong. Plain and simple. My wife and I have been planning our dream home and were thinking about a Model X in the near future. When we saw the announcement of the Solar Roof, we thought about becoming an early adopter for that. After my S, however, both of those plans are now on hold. We don't want to rush the Solar Roof and learn it's suffering from similar issues that aren't being reported or properly vetted. My Model S is awesome and I love driving it, but there is no denying these "concerns" and our experience has left us with less trust in the company than we had when we placed the order. It doesn't mean I regret buying it or wouldn't do the same thing again, but maybe that question should wait a year. I just think it would be foolish for the company to ignore, or take personally, such "concerns." If a year or two goes by and Lucid Aur, or Faraday, or Jaguar, or whoever puts out something comparable and more reliable...we all know what will happen.

 

[Canuck]

I don't presume to know what goes on in the minds of others.

I think we all presume what is going on in the minds of others. That's just human nature.

I find it interesting that you can presume to judge me, or call me insincere, based upon a single post (my opinion) and the fact that I can afford a top-of-the-line Tesla.

I didn't call you insincere. I said:

I think you know that too, deep down anyway.

I believe that you what you posted was sincere to you on a conscious level hence the "deep down" part. But I also said:

Then again, I could be wrong.

You won't be first person who bought a Tesla, wasn't happy with it or the service, and went back to an ICE. For all I know that could be you. But since those people are the rare exception rather than the rule, I was playing the odds, that's all.

My Model S is awesome and I love driving it, but there is no denying these "concerns" and our experience has left us with less trust in the company than we had when we placed the order.

When did I ever deny your concerns? You totally missed my point. I said:

Expecting no problems is what I find bizarre.

Your expectations for a brand new car company is different than mine, that's all. I expect Tesla to fix all of your problems to your satisfaction. I also expect the build quality to continue to get better, as we know it has. You must understand that it costs Tesla money every time a customer has a problem with a door handle, like we both have. The handles have got considerably better. This is about expectations and mine are different than yours for a new car company.

Making excuses for shortcomings is a setup for failure.

I'm not making excuses. I'm providing explanations. There's a big difference. I've criticized Tesla many times on a number of issues.

I am NOT "Tesla bashing."

Where did I ever say you were "Tesla bashing". Please don't use quotation marks around words I never used.

There IS clear evidence "on the horizon" that the other companies have noticed.

Really? There's another car company building fast charging networks on different continents, a battery giga factory and a long range compelling EV? Please tell me who?

Tesla's splash is relatively short term, but there is strong evidence those other companies have noticed (just on Facebook, I'm regularly getting shown Jaguar's new all-electric concept, plus the Chevy Bolt upended Tesla in a major award this year) because they HAVE made a splash.

Ha! That's funny. We will agree to disagree. I really want competition but we see this "competition" very differently.

If a year or two goes by and Lucid Aur, or Faraday, or Jaguar, or whoever puts out something comparable and more reliable...we all know what will happen.

You will not be able to reliably drive these vehicles from my home in the Pacific Northwest to Florida in a year or two, guaranteed.

I find it interesting that you can presume to judge me, or call me insincere, based upon a single post (my opinion) and the fact that I can afford a top-of-the-line Tesla.

I didn't even know you had a top of the line Tesla until you mention it here. Perhaps you posted it before, but I was dealing with Tesla vehicles in general regardless of the options.

But I'll bet you $1 your next vehicle will be another Tesla?

 

[stefan.bc]

Expecting no problems is what I find bizarre.

Can you let me know what do you consider "Expecting no problems"?

How many issues do you expect to find after the car passed 2,3 maybe more inspections before delivery?
How many issues do you expect to have after a few thousand miles?
How many days do you think it's acceptable to wait for a SC to fix the issues above?
How many times do you expect to visit a SC to fix your car under waranty?

In my experience the answer to all the questions above is 0 or 1. What number do you find acceptable for Tesla in 2017?

 

[Tanquen]

Yea but many of these other brands like Jaguar or Mercedes have issues of their own. If my loaner Mercedes was any indication, I never want to own a Mercedes. The YouTube videos of lightly used Ferraris and Lamborghinis and Aston Martins are pretty depressing. For better or worse that's what the S and the X are but the Model 3 needs to be more like what people think a Honda or Toyota should be, even though my Lexus had a bunch of lame issues.

 

[saberjustin]

If I took things you said out of context, I apologize. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when my motives are "declared" by someone who really doesn't know me. It irks me. Came across that way.

For the record, I often use quotes just to emphasize the point. I think it's pretty clear I'm not quoting you on the Tesla bashing front. I'm just stating my position.

I often wonder what people are thinking, but I don't presume to KNOW. In some ways, though, I've gotten awfully good at making predictions based upon what I see as the best odds. I'm pretty good st human nature.

We could probably go back and forth on a lot of things, but rather than point out where I think you are misunderstanding me (as where you've done for me) I'll just say that my post is pretty much just an opinion editorial rather than a deconstruction of what you've said to me. I never said you were making excuses (it was just a philosophical point), I wasn't quoting you with "Tesla bashing," and we CAN agree to disagree about what "on the horizon" means. I don't think I'm expecting no problems with a new car, but it seems to me that mine's delivery raises an issue of serious lack of attention to detail. Thats a problem if you're selling a "luxury sedan." It's concerning. And they DID get it fixed, but the fact that these issues are a bit more widespread than just with me is concerning...and I am thus now concerned about the upcoming model 3 release. If these same problems are occurring with that brand new car, Tesla's ability to service all of their customers will be compromised. They're spread thin enough as it is. Tesla really needs to not lose their customers' trust. I think they're flirting with it, though.

It's much too soon to say whether we'll buy another one in the near future, but I can tell you this: we were much more likely to buy two when we placed our order for mine than we are to commit to a second one now. Thankfully, we aren't in any dire need to replace a car at the moment, so we'll happily wait and see what happens.

 

[m2140]

While a big part of me wants another Tesla because no other car compares. I'm seriously having doubts because of the recent service & parts issues i've experienced. My wife and I considering just flipping our model 3 when it comes, Specially if it's delivered within that first year. We may change our mind if there are some cool features on it. But as of right now another Tesla does not look like a good option for us.

 

[scottm]

It's funny how a broken sounding horn thread ends up talking about flipping model 3's.

Here's the thing... my model S is now off warranty, but even if under warranty, my options for getting Tesla service are 'remote'. No more free ranger, that got redacted in late 2015.

So what I'd do is... find the horn and replace it myself. It's a mechanical part and one of the simplest things that are possibly for DIY on such a high tech car. I can source "one like it" for less than the part Tesla would sell me.

This is an easy fix. The first good sign is something happens when the horn button is pressed, so the circuit path is "trying". There's three things that typically go wrong with a horn (that is still make a noise but a funny noise).

In order of execution here's what I'd do with HEARING PROTECTION on or you can sh*t yourself in an instant.

1. bad ground or weak supply wires, not delivering full power... corrosion, poor contact mating, etc. Check: supply a solid +12 from a car battery directly to car horn (unhooked) terminals. No Change? Bad horn, step 2. Prove the wires: take any other good horn and hook the Tesla wires to it. Loud!? Your wires are good.
2. dirt / debris / small stone finds its way up the horn and jambs the free movement needed of the vibrating sound plate. Check: visual, tap on hard surface, shake listen for rattles.. reapply +12 on the bench.. fixed?
3. tuning adjustment. Often horns have a couple of sealed set screws for adjusting features like loudness, pitch.. They basically stress the inner parts in ways that restrict / enable movement. There's a "magic point" that will allow good oscillation to begin. Below that point, it can be quite muted sounding. Check: diddle the screws a bit at a time to see if there's a change. Fixed?

That was all free above except for your time. For me, would be less time than trying to arrange Tesla service.

IF that didn't solve it. Your Tesla supplied horn is not sounding good. You could open it up (if possible, often not) and have a deeper look.

Or buy another for a few buck and install it instead. Now is the time for you to select what you like. IF you loved the way that Cadillac dual-tone sounded, go to a wrecker yard and buy a Caddy horn set. Or buy brand new, pitch and dB of your liking. Or get original Tesla replacement to keep it true. Choices!!

 

[mrjedistud]

I actually had my horn fail on me. Took it to Tesla and they ran a diagnostic and checked the connections. Couldn't find any issues. Then they rebooted something (CPU?) and the horn came back. Looks like it was some sort of software issue.

I've had the car for just over a year now. I bought it as a CPO and have had the following work done (not counting the due list items from delivery):
Sound blanket installed for the AC
Both side mirror mechanisms replaced
One side mirror skull cap replaced
Front right suspension control arm repair
Horn reset

As you can see nothing was that critical, except maybe the suspension.

Tesla also found a few items voluntarily and took care of them. Overall the service level has been great and thankfully I live near a service center.

 

[scottm]

Here, the horn was eeking out a sound... so it's a mechanical / electrical issue at the horn.

It's when the 'horn in inoperable' (like your case of "no sound") is when you get a little more concerned if a software reboot doesn't fix it. This is when hi-tech of the car is getting in the way.

For critical safety systems of the car... and maybe the horn qualifies as such (it should!) ... these are not controlled by center stack computer.

You can find out! Honk the horn. Now, reboot the computer to the get T logo coming up and while it's doing that... honk the horn again!

Did it sound while the computer was rebooting? If it does sound, you know it's not be controlled (limited) by the center stack.

 

[saberjustin]

I think m2140's post, although ultimately precipitated by a fizzling horn, is really an indication of much greater frustration. Considering the problems outlined and the relative timeframe, I think the frustration exhibited would be similarly felt by a majority of consumers if they found themselves in the same boat. Going out on a limb, but it's fair to say that if my Model S were to ultimately give as much trouble and be proven as unreliable as m2140's, there is absolutely ZERO chance I would invest in another Tesla product without witnessing some major and verifiable changes in company production and policy. I'd wager that, in retrospect, m2140 is a rare Tesla customer who wouldn't make the purchase again.

That's why I think the original post was totally reasonable. They are quite-understandably frustrated. Their experience has not been a good one. That's fair.

Maybe theirs was a rare lemon. I could accept that. My own experience with Tesla PEOPLE has been outstanding, which has helped me cut them some slack. I think the Model S product, working as intended, is sublime. I still think there's really no excuse for a P100D with Premium Audio to be delivered to the customer with the speaker issue mine had, but they did get it worked out (but what else was supposed to happen???), for which I was and am thankful. Take that, however, plus the windshield wipers (which is just plain someone along the chain not paying attention to details), plus one of my handles going out in a week, and yes - I'm "concerned." Not mad, or abandoning the company, but concerned. And hoping they're paying attention to these truths so that they can improve, the same way a professional athlete identifies shortcomings in technique to improve their game.

Do I, personally, regret my purchase? Not at all. Would I do it again? Yes, so far. I'm hoping my early experience was just a hiccup on a long road of loving my machine (which I am, but then again, it's behaving like it's supposed to).

 

[jerry33]

FWIW, my four year old 84K mile Model S has been as reliable as any other car I've had--and more reliable than some.

 

[saberjustin]

Worth a lot!
Tesla's absurdly high customer satisfaction ratings were very important to me in deciding to pull the trigger on my machine.

 

[somnambule]

I also think it's fair to expect that, when you've spent enough on a "luxury sedan" to have bought two of most other "luxury sedans" on the road, what you get (both in build quality and service) lives up to those expectations.

I agree with you that the frequency of initial quality lapses we hear about on Teslas is higher than we fans would like and the service capacity constraints are a concern. However, I do not agree with the above. Just because you bought car that's twice the price of most luxury sedans does not guarantee you better quality. For example, the S-class is one of the worst models from Mercedes in terms of initial quality (much worse than the Model S, if you believe Consumer Reports' stats). Range Rovers have had some of the worst initial quality of any brand known to mankind (ok, maybe only among the ones available in North America). Lower volume vehicles do suffer more from quality lapses. That's just reality.

Now, the attention and service I received from Tesla in response to this issue was AMAZINGLY GOOD. Absolutely top notch.

This is also my experience. And, at the end of the day, that matters a whole lot to me. I'm much more willing to accept the risk of problems if I know those will be taken care of.

 

[somnambule]

the Chevy Bolt upended Tesla in a major award this year

Just out of curiosity, what is this award? That's an honest question. I like the Bolt as well but not aware of any head-to-head upending of Tesla.

I'm aware of the North American Car of the Year win, which the Bolt very much deserved, but that award is given to new vehicles every year. There was no Tesla in the competition.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I agree with you that the frequency of initial quality lapses we hear about on Teslas is higher than we fans would like and the service capacity constraints are a concern. However, I do not agree with the above. Just because you bought car that's twice the price of most luxury sedans does not guarantee you better quality. For example, the S-class is one of the worst models from Mercedes in terms of initial quality (much worse than the Model S, if you believe Consumer Reports' stats). Range Rovers have had some of the worst initial quality of any brand known to mankind (ok, maybe only among the ones available in North America). Lower volume vehicles do suffer more from quality lapses. That's just reality.

Why set the bar so low? Why CAN'T quality be proportional to price? Elon Musk said in 2012 and 2013 that his goal is to create the best cars on the road. Gilbert Passin, who was head of manufacturing at the time (formerly with Toyota), said in a video that Teslas will have the highest quality ever in a production vehicle. Clearly neither of these statements have panned out, one has to ask: 1) why, and 2) why don't customers hold Tesla to its word?

As a community we seem to have very short memories about what Tesla promised when compared to what it is actually delivering.

 

[Max*]

As a community we seem to have very short memories about what Tesla promised when compared to what it is actually delivering.

Ah, you must have missed all the constant complaining on all the threads started here about every little detail of the car.

 

[somnambule]

Why set the bar so low? Why CAN'T quality be proportional to price? Elon Musk said in 2012 and 2013 that his goal is to create the best cars on the road. Gilbert Passin, who was head of manufacturing at the time (formerly with Toyota), said in a video that Teslas will have the highest quality ever in a production vehicle. Clearly neither of these statements have panned out, one has to ask: 1) why, and 2) why don't customers hold Tesla to its word?

As a community we seem to have very short memories about what Tesla promised when compared to what it is actually delivering.

To me, the real question is why Tesla folks repeatedly run their mouths and make unrealistic promises. That seems an easier question to answer than how a new company with almost no manufacturing experience could "out-manufacture" companies with a century+ of manufacturing experience.

There is something to be said for out-of-the-box thinking (e.g., I'm excited to see how Elon taking a page out of silicon fabrication pans out for car manufacturing) but, at some level, you do learn from mistakes and experience is a tremendous asset.

 

[scottm]

Alt-reality ?

...define "best"