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The Inhumanity of the World Petroleum Trade

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by AudubonB, Jun 15, 2014.

  1. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    I have become increasingly infuriated - and despondent - over news coming mostly out of the Middle East in recent years, months, weeks and now hours.

    Leaving aside any discussion regarding the role of hydrocarbon consumption may have with respect to the world's ecosystem, more and more what I am seeing is now that innovators such as Mr Musk have successfully demonstrated that at least one enormous fraction of oil consumption can be substituted with today's technology and at today's price levels (personal transportation, of course), I absolutely believe that there can be no more justification under any grounds whatsoever that we remain complicit in the barbaric terror that occurs in too many of the oil-producing regions of the planet.

    For long, we have held that anyone who consumes products like cocaine and marijuana are personally responsible for atrocities committed along the production and supply chain of such substances from the fields of Latin America and southern Asia to the consumers in (inter alia) North America and Europe. "Smoke a joint: Kill a Peasant" remains true, but now more than ever, "Follow The Money" holds true in the domain of Middle East oil production. "A gallon of gas = A village destroyed", or "A liter of petrol = a Taliban bullet"...these may not be the catchiest or most effective slogans, but they are close enough to the truth that something like that ought be disseminated.

    I am so spitting mad at this I don't know even what the appropriate sub-forum should be.
     
  2. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    How about Energy-Environment-and-Policy?

    Actually, it's worth taking a look at where global production really is. I don't really see the correlation in this list with the barbaric terror you talk about and Afghanistan (Taliban country) doesn't produce any oil. I'm not saying that people don't fight over oil at all but it's not the case when viewed globally.
     
  3. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    LOL Nigel, you replied at the exact moment I moved it to Energy Environment and Policy.
     
  4. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    Maybe Nigel's not read of the 1,700 Iraqi - not Afghan - soldiers executed just now. And even I, who obtain 100 percent of my fuel from Alaskan-derived crude, know that the fungibility of the commodity business is such that it is worse than hypocritical to believe that "because my fuel comes from outside Region X, what happens in Iraq or Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Nigeria or Venezuela is independent of my addiction to petroleum products". That most fundamentally is exactly not the case.
     
  5. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    Agree 100%. This is another very good point why we should try as much as possible to get rid of the need of oil. It's a matter of democracy. I don't want that my money goes to anti-democratic Countries.
     
  6. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

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    Wikipedia isn’t always a reliable source of information, so I really don’t know if the following is accurate or not:

    Regardless, I do wonder where ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab and Al-Qaeda et al. get their money from…
     
  7. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    No kidding :)


    The same place the Westboro Baptist Church does: Fanatical followers.

    But really, the Middle East has always been a place of violence, and is always likely to be. There seems to be something about hot climates that creates religious fanatics. There's probably a paper in this.
     
  8. Tharo

    Tharo Member

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    I agree with you, but oil not only kills in distant countries, in America/Europe the carcinogenic smoke from cars kills thousands, and thousands more sick. All that should be enough for us to stop buying gasoline car.
     
  9. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    The OP said:

    Leaving aside any discussion regarding the role of hydrocarbon consumption may have with respect to the world's ecosystem
     
  10. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    Oil is poison in every respect -- for the economy, politics, the environment, personal health, global security, human rights. And to one degree or the other we are all addicted. It doesn't matter one bit where the junk comes from -- that doesn't make it any less a poison. The sooner we all the kick the habit the better.
     
  11. Vger

    Vger Active Member

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    Well said!
     
  12. Canuck

    Canuck Active Member

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    Point taken but we shouldn't be blind to the fact that the use of fossil fuels have given our species a high standard of living and very comfortable lifestyle (or, at least the fortunate of our species, which is all of us here). There's nothing wrong with trying to raise our standards of living for our ourselves and our children -- and I do realize the irony in that statement but that is how we got to this place in time and it's not necessarily a bad thing to try to conquer nature when not too long ago we were part of the food chain rather than at the top of it, and huddled around fires to keep warm.

    Also, the problems in the middle east date back centuries, well before oil extraction, and it's somewhat simplistic to blame the current events on oil. Our species is tribal in nature and warfare over land, power, belief systems, etc. have existed from our outset and won't be gone even if we cease to use one drop of oil.

    But that's not to say we shouldn't dramatically reduce our reliance on oil. Rather, it's an attempt to give some historical perspective on the sad scenes we are seeing coming out of Iraq.
     
  13. Chipper

    Chipper Active Member

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    This is a VERY unfair comparison! The fact that I choose to support my church does not make me a fanatic! I resent being compared as similar to terrorists and murderers.
     
  14. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    Cooler climates have plenty of religious fanatics as well. Also religious fanaticism doesn't automatically equate to violence; sure, plenty of conflicts have arisen in the name of religion but most of the widest and longest wars in history had nothing to do with religion. The argument the OP was making with this thread is that the fight over oil has lead to inhumanities....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just noting that if you don't like Wikipedia in this case, then you see the list(s) of oil producers at CIA-The-World-Factbook and/or International Energy Agency - Key Statistics
     
  15. DRS1

    DRS1 Banned

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    Where does the power come for the Tesla? 65% coal, 15% nuc, 15% natural gas or fuel oil. Only a smidgeon from "clean" energy.

    Now let's look at the energy it takes to produce such a luxury vehicle. Much exploited tare earth minerals, hazardous elements and final materials.. Which take countless amounts of power and "pollution" generated through the supply line and production.

    Thousand year toxic materials compose a large percentage of the car. Waste by products from the materials in the car are massive.

    How many people in this post are totally off the grid and produce their own "clean energy"? Crickets.. And if one did, would be generating such energy using toxic materials that make up such clean energy devices. Let alone all the toxic elements, exploited minerals mined to produce such "clean" power for those who can afford the Tesla.

    The point is... Let's not get on a high horse about things unless you are willing to live the life yourself as say a Old order Amish family. I suggest getting out of the globalists brainwashing. There is a amazing world and history to learn. Not the fascist handlers who have you engrained in something that is false.

    Enjoy the car for what it is.. Amazing tech. And a way for the future. It is not about bragging rights of pious vanity how one person is saving the world driving a Tesla.
     
  16. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    #16 nwdiver, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
    See... that's the kind of attitude that keeps things from moving forward... "Nothing is perfect so might as well not make the effort to improve". Do I think driving a Tesla while producing more energy from solar than my car + house consumes makes me a better person? Of course not. Just like I don't think the fact I didn't rob the guy in front of me at the ATM makes me a better person... That doesn't translate to the fact that ROBBING people or making life more difficult for future generations by not making responsible energy choices DOES make you a bad person. I'm unaware of any moral paradigm that condones risking the quality of life of others for the sake of personal convenience when viable options exist.

    Are solar panels perfect? No... but they are orders of magnitude better than fossil fuels and improving every year. Pretending that maintaining an addiction to fossil fuels is simply a personal choice no different than what color car you choose is ignoring reality and does nothing to mitigate the problem. The simple fact is that using fossil fuels as a source of energy when viable options exist IS NOT OK.

    Quick fact check... we're now <40% coal and solar PV is doubling every 18 months.
     
  17. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    He was only talking about Westboro not religion in general.
     
  18. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    + 1
     
  19. CalDreamin

    CalDreamin Member

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    You are quite wrong. The electric utility that serves my region is PG&E, which is one of the largest in California and probably powers more Teslas than any other electric utility anywhere. Tesla's Fremont factory is also powered by PG&E.

    PG&E says:
    The power mix we provided to our customers in 2012 consisted of non-emitting nuclear generation (21 percent), large hydroelectric facilities (11 percent) and eligible renewable resources (19 percent), such as wind, geothermal, biomass, solar and small hydro. The remaining portion came from natural gas/other (27 percent) and unspecified power (21 percent).

    PG&E has no coal or oil fired power plants. None. PG&E's "eligible renewable resources" will steadily grow from 19% in 2012 to 33% by 2020, as mandated by state law. Add in the 11% large hydro and that's 44% total renewables. Much of the "unspecified power" is probably imported hydro from the PNW.

    In addition, I have rooftop solar that offsets a large majority of the electricity used to charge my Tesla and power my home. On a net basis, almost all of my power is "clean".

    About 40% of California EV owners have rooftop solar, a far higher percentage than the average California home.

    Nonsense. There are zero rare earth metals in the Tesla Model S battery and drivetrain. The only rare earth element in the Model S is a small amount in the audio speakers, as is the case for most cars. The other elements that make up the Model S can be found in all cars. Tesla's CTO has said that the embedded energy payback for a Model S is less than 10k miles. I'm at 21k miles, I'm well past that.
     
  20. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

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    Stop it with all of these facts!! They don't mesh well with ill-informed, FUD-like arguments against Teslas and EVs! Next I bet we're going to hear from DRS1 how driving a Hummer is more environmentally friendly that driving a Tesla. :rolleyes:
     

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