The M3 terrifies BMW

[Red Sage]

I disagree. Things have to be inspired to be cool. Over-engineering makes things prone to failure or at least a significant inconvenience. Hence the word "over."

I was referring to the doors mainly, yeah. But the windshield probably qualifies as well, as do the second row seats. The ones that don't fold flat and have glossy seat backs. In my world, those are weird things.

Living with it every day, I can assure you that it's definitely a bit of a weird EV. I can make anyone understand the Model S. The X isn't quite as easy a mental sale.

Did you ever notice how no one says something is 'over crafted' or 'over artistic'...? Over engineered is a GOOD thing. In fact, it is precisely what fans of German automobiles have claimed was the case about Mercedes-Benz vehicles for like, EVER, and stuff. Basically, it was their reason for existence in the face of Rolls-Royce. It was a brilliant fiction -- and then... Tesla.

 

[ohmman]

Did you ever notice how no one says something is 'over crafted' or 'over artistic'...? Over engineered is a GOOD thing. In fact, it is precisely what fans of German automobiles have claimed was the case about Mercedes-Benz vehicles for like, EVER, and stuff. Basically, it was their reason for existence in the face of Rolls-Royce. It was a brilliant fiction -- and then... Tesla.

You're mixing up the way the term has been used. I agree, over-engineering (that is, engineering with a high factor of safety) can be a good thing, though it's extremely wasteful. Think Roman bridges that are still standing. When the labor is all free (slave labor from conquered lands), the engineers don't have to be very lean.

The way that the term is being used is more in line with "overly complex," at least that's the way I read it and use it when discussing the Model X. It's not over-engineered, or my doors wouldn't have had as many failures as they have. They'd have had none. The windshield isn't over-engineered, or I wouldn't see triple vision at night when driving. These are things that are overly complex and therefore introduced problems that haven't been solved to date.

I get it, it's innovation and all that. I mean, I bought it, didn't I? But I do think it's important to distinguish between the two terms.

 

[Red Sage]

So, no one, anywhere, has EVER had any issues with dual sliding doors on a minivan in the past 25 years since that 'innovation' was introduced? The entire world today would be classified as 'overly complex' to someone who prefers Holley carburetors to electronic fuel injection with variable valve lift and timing, or steam engines to diesel electric locomotives, or waterwheel grindstones to electric mills, or slave labor to unionized workforces. My mobile phone is a device that is gozillions of times more complex than a Commodore C-64 was in 1982. And both are far more advanced than the Texas Instuments digital calculator my Uncle used in his office 40 years ago. Needless complexity? Not if that complexity offers additional functionality beyond what could have been accomplished using less complex technology. Hence, why Toyota and Jeep both abandoned the notion of exposed hinges on SUVs with the passage of time.

 

[CuriousG]

So, no one, anywhere, has EVER had any issues with dual sliding doors on a minivan in the past 25 years since that 'innovation' was introduced? The entire world today would be classified as 'overly complex' to someone who prefers Holley carburetors to electronic fuel injection with variable valve lift and timing, or steam engines to diesel electric locomotives, or waterwheel grindstones to electric mills, or slave labor to unionized workforces. My mobile phone is a device that is gozillions of times more complex than a Commodore C-64 was in 1982. And both are far more advanced than the Texas Instuments digital calculator my Uncle used in his office 40 years ago. Needless complexity? Not if that complexity offers additional functionality beyond what could have been accomplished using less complex technology. Hence, why Toyota and Jeep both abandoned the notion of exposed hinges on SUVs with the passage of time.

I guess you won't let this die.

We over-engineered the car

Third paragraph.

 

[FlatSix911]

I guess you won't let this die.

We over-engineered the car Third paragraph.

On Wednesday, after reporting earnings, Tesla CEO Elon Musk told investors that the Model X SUV's delays were caused by the vehicle's extreme complexity. In fact, the Model X proved to be so difficult that it became a pain for Tesla.

"There was some hubris with the Model X," Musk said. "We over-engineered the car."

According to the Tesla CEO, everything from the seals around the windows to the construction of the second-row seats proved to be hurdles. But Musk said the company overcame these issues, which led to a redesign of certain window seals and the insourcing of seat construction. There aren't any fundamental issues with the Model X, Musk said. In fact, the Silicon Valley tycoon called the vehicle the "best car ever" made.

"I'm not sure anyone will make a car like this again," he said. "I'm not sure Tesla will make a car like this again."

 

[Red Sage]

So, solved issues is a problem? Really? C'mon, MAN!

As I've said many times before, I prefer engineering over craftsmanship.

Even when the rear doors are completely open on a Toyota Sienna, the door panels still cover the opening. Same thing with a Honda Odyssey or Chrysler Town & Country or Kia Sedona. Sliding doors be [DURNED]! Falcon Wing Doors forever!

And oh yeah... The Model X is currently outselling the Cayenne in the US.

 

[CuriousG]

So, solved issues is a problem? Really? C'mon, MAN!

There's claim to be solved and actual evidence. Much like the drive train issue that's been ongoing for a long time now. With the X you still have the ghosting windshields and numerous latch issues with the doors. Look at the numerous posts regarding snapping doors for the Model X and then look at videos if you want to cringe.

It probably didn't help with pushing out cars as fast as they could during Q3. I'm sure we'll hear of more QA issues.

 

[SageBrush]

Ohmman and RedSage have caused me to wonder what Elon meant when he said 'over-engineered.'
Probably not un-needed safety or reliability given the context of hubris, unfortunately.

When I heard him speak of it at the M3 reveal I took him to mean that the benefit was not worth the eventual resources required for successful production.

Ohmman says something similar from a customer standpoint, that the door's hassles are not worth the benefit (to him.)

 

[Jayc]

IMO features like MS active door locks and MX falcon wings helped promote Tesla within the premium car market in a way that advertising could not do - Tesla scored marks in that demography of buyers with those features. They also paid a price for it in terms of reduced reliability but to go back now and question those decisions is pointless because their job is done - today, most people know about Tesla and want to buy their cars.

With Model 3 as we suspect, EM will focus on simplicity, ease of manufacture and reliability which is also going to be great because these goals will also score marks in that demography of buyers for M3.

 

[SΞXY P100D]

All these issues are great lessons learned by Tesla and will surely benefit Model 3 and other future vehicles' production. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that once Tesla resolves an issue it rarely ever comes back.

 

[Zapped]

Not so sure the drive train issues are completely resolved. I've only had 2 (original + 1), others not so lucky.

 

[ohmman]

Not so sure the drive train issues are completely resolved. I've only had 2 (original + 1), others not so lucky.

I don't know if they're resolved, but I've been watching the drive unit replacement threads and they've gone pretty much silent after a long period of high activity. I'm on my second unit for the S and it's been solid. My feeling is that things are getting much better.

 

[Zapped]

I don't know if they're resolved, but I've been watching the drive unit replacement threads and they've gone pretty much silent after a long period of high activity. I'm on my second unit for the S and it's been solid. My feeling is that things are getting much better.

Agreed. Some were rebuilt. I was able to get a completely new one at the time, perhaps the reason I never had any issues again.
Drive unit replacement - getting better?

 

[JeffK]

Agreed. Some were rebuilt. I was able to get a completely new one at the time, perhaps the reason I never had any issues again.
Drive unit replacement - getting better?

They've publicly stated that this was a greasing issue and have since automated it... It would be extremely surprising if this issue still existed (in new cars).

 

[raysspl]

Current new BMW owner here & firm believer in Elon's vision. Will also be getting Teslas soon.

 

[Cyclone]

Not so sure the drive train issues are completely resolved. I've only had 2 (original + 1), others not so lucky.

I don't know if they're resolved, but I've been watching the drive unit replacement threads and they've gone pretty much silent after a long period of high activity. I'm on my second unit for the S and it's been solid. My feeling is that things are getting much better.

Agreed. Some were rebuilt. I was able to get a completely new one at the time, perhaps the reason I never had any issues again.
Drive unit replacement - getting better?

They've publicly stated that this was a greasing issue and have since automated it... It would be extremely surprising if this issue still existed (in new cars).

I'm on my 3rd Drive Unit in under two years. Thankfully, this "Q" variant I got last time has been holding steady. On the threads here on TMC, the Q (for standard) and P (for performance) variants have been rock solid so far, and some have had them for almost a year. I hope we finally have them behind us, but they are still a relatively new Development. I would have to go back, but I believe "Q" came out in 2016.

 

[bmah]

I'm on my 3rd Drive Unit in under two years. Thankfully, this "Q" variant I got last time has been holding steady. On the threads here on TMC, the Q (for standard) and P (for performance) variants have been rock solid so far, and some have had them for almost a year. I hope we finally have them behind us, but they are still a relatively new Development. I would have to go back, but I believe "Q" came out in 2016.

If I've never had any drive unit issues (and therefore have never seen the part number of the drive units in my car), how would I know what I've got? (April 2015 build, S85D, 24K miles.)

Or if I've never had any issues should I not even care?

Thanks,

Bruce.

 

[ohmman]

Or if I've never had any issues should I not even care?

I think this is the correct answer. Some will tell you they're prone to failure or degradation, but if you've put 24k miles on the car and it's operating properly, I think you're good. Plus, you have until April 2023 for Tesla to replace it for you.

Enjoy the ride.

 

[SΞXY P100D]

you have until April 2023 for Tesla to replace it for you.

Will probably get the next gen Model S by that time.

 

[bmah]

I think this is the correct answer. Some will tell you they're prone to failure or degradation, but if you've put 24k miles on the car and it's operating properly, I think you're good. Plus, you have until April 2023 for Tesla to replace it for you.

Enjoy the ride.

Cool, thanks!

Bruce.