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The most useless warning message

Discussion in 'The UK and Ireland' started by pgkevet, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. pgkevet

    pgkevet Member

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    So I'm coming home on a single track rural road where the ultrasonics are orange both sides and it's hissing down with rain just now and the message pops up "Blindspot detection limited" ollwoed by "Lane departure warning limited"

    Oh, yes, full self driving is only months away........:rolleyes:
     
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  2. Puddles

    Puddles Member

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    I've been to Wales! I was on that road! I was sitting on top in a double decker bus and as it lurched from side to side I could look down onto the top of the hedgerows.
     
  3. pgkevet

    pgkevet Member

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    You must have been on the wide road! you'ld never get a double-decker round these corners or see the tops of the hedges without a cherry-picker:D
     
  4. VanillaAir_UK

    VanillaAir_UK Moderator UK and Ireland

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    One minute I am amazed by how much auto pilot can actually see (mostly I am a passenger so can pay close attention to the screen road and vehicle visualisation), the next I am perplexed by how some common occurrences (such as sun angle) can cause the systems to struggle so much. Tesla really need to cater for what is for some, common driving conditions. No point having a system where half of it has shut down when driving west in the morning, or east in the evening simply because its rear view cameras are being blinded by the low sun. It needs to be far more robust.
     
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  5. Need

    Need Active Member

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    You will see those messages often if it rains a lot or early morning. If any water drop cover the side camera, it will give that message. They pretty much translate to "my cameras cannot see the lanes on the side clearly."
     
  6. gangzoom

    gangzoom Active Member

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    I had those warnings for about 1/3 of the trip down the M42/M5 yesterday in the rain. At one point AP just stopped working completely, not unreasonable given the conditions.
     
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  7. tess19

    tess19 Member

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    Wouldnt like that to happen when I am on FSD in robotaxi at the end of this year.
     
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  8. pdk42

    pdk42 Member

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    Let's face it, AP ("FSD" or otherwise) is an interesting fun thing to show off to friends and family, and perhaps even useful in some favourable circumstances, but as a serious system that can be relied upon, it falls way short.
     
  9. pgkevet

    pgkevet Member

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    Also with condensation in the B pillar..
    But that's not the point. If car doesn't know a single track road in rain (and it has no markings apart from the hedges) then it's another example of very basic flaws in programming. At the very least it's sloppy.
    I also agree with Vanilla-Air that the current hardware sensor setup cannot cope with common weather and driving conditions; rain, muddy spray from other vehicles and even a single camera going down will halt autonomy. Robotaxis that only work on nice days and after the passenger has gone round with a cloth to clean everything will be as useless as leaves on the line and the wrong sort of snow.
     
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  10. pdk42

    pdk42 Member

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    Like Brexit, FSD is an interesting fiction that most people continue to believe in. At some point, we'll all realise we've been sold a pup.

    How's that for a political and topical post? ;)
     
  11. phillcom3

    phillcom3 Member

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    do you seriously think they will design a car for this edge case? think how much the cars going to cost if they did? you'd have maybe 70 percent of cases covered before it can be classed as full self drive. there will have to imho be a steering and pedal all the way until all these roads are removed from existence in the first place. give the companies working on the autonomy a break 10 years ago it was literally an infant now we are trusting it to drive us at 70 plus, give it 20 years and a proper driving lesson and it should be able to do it.
     
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  12. phillcom3

    phillcom3 Member

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    you are correct there is no redundancy. each camera should be a duplex camera in stereo at least to allow for proper functionality in all situations however each I believe when the chips are small enough should also have their own processor which then feeds a central quadruplex decision making computer. similar to fly by wire in an aircraft at minimum there is 4 flight computers. if 1 goes down the other 3 take over for the hand shake and the secondary function of the 4th is transferred to one of the others. it goes into limp mode though still just for safety but it will still allow for the mission. if the next goes down its time to get home. mission is aborted. if the 3rd goes you are landing now or not at all.

    give the car even a little bit of redundancy and I think it will be come not the current safest but the future safest car even in all weather types and all road types. the next issue though is that roads simply arnt mapped in gps and on-board computers with enough accuracy. if they could be then the car could follow these crazy roads even better.
     
  13. VanillaAir_UK

    VanillaAir_UK Moderator UK and Ireland

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    Place I use to work had a self driving car 50 years ago. They also had a self driving car with no steering wheel 3 years ago. The first would have needed road modifications to work now, the second would work now if the mapping was there, just not very fast.

    The problem is, I think Tesla have over estimated their sensor capabilities, and many are over estimating the capability of the cars. Like many things, there is a tradeoff, but you would like to think that Tesla looked outside their lat/long and ensured that their AP and other capabilities were equal in those areas too.
     
  14. pdk42

    pdk42 Member

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    #14 pdk42, Oct 19, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
    In truth, driving a car is a much harder job than flying an aircraft. Aircraft fly in protected airspace with routes preplanned by their pilots and controllers. And an aircraft's response to control inputs is rigorously modelled and highly predictable. Then when they land they have highly precise and accurate radio navigation aids to guide them to the threshold. In comparison, a car has to navigate complex roads, and deal with the vagaries of other drivers and their erratic behaviour.

    Then the aircraft manufacturers have had 50 years or more of automation development experience, plus a regulatory regime that demands compliance with the most stringent safety standards, including operating in all weathers and adverse conditions. And finally, these AP systems have clear limits and the pilots are well trained in when to take over.

    For all these reasons I'd trust an aircraft's autopilot, but I wouldn't trust the Tesla's system beyond a simple demo as a party trick.
     
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  15. pgkevet

    pgkevet Member

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    I had reason to look it up the other day and the first autopilot was developed 90 years ago - amazing. Of course aircraft don't have to worry about kids chasing footballs or stray dogs or fallen trees and potholes etc.
    If one is fixated on using cameras as a main optical sensor and trying to emulate human interpretation and driving then such cameras need to have equivelents to blinking and squinting and shading and duplicate redundancy and preferably all paired for stereovision which adds a huge computing overhead.
     
  16. phillcom3

    phillcom3 Member

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    one would have thought but nah. americans for you, they tend to forget there's more of a world outside of their own state.
     
  17. phillcom3

    phillcom3 Member

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    I design aircraft I know that. The issue is humans are not willing to take the training needed to know when to take over in car vs an aircraft. It is all or nothing for the 99 x 10^9 people however, the statement that they have all the instrumentation you made is moot. a plane is traveling on average 140 knots at landing speed with a big long runway in front of it after following a 1 Trak ILS down to touchdown which is known every step of the way. It is not as advanced as you would like to think it is. The routs are so simple that if they were turned into a walking path for a child they would be able to follow it for the reason it HAS to be simple. Landing without automation of any kind is a 4d exercise in judgment and flight a straight lien to touchdown down a path assessed to be safe most of the time. a car on the other hand tends to be driven by someone who’s not very good at thinking more than 10 seconds plus the journeys eta down about at most half a mile down the road going a route that doesn’t change much every day other than what cars are where and if there has been some rain or not.

    the erraticness however is the MAIN point of all this so yes aircraft will win on the autonomy as like you say it is simpler to do but only down the path PREPLAND as soon s anything different happens it kicks the pilot into action and a pilot is mostly always aware of his surroundings (give or take an illness here or there or a airhostess coming in... I digress; the point being those 50 years has been on an almost blank slate and one they have not had to wade into against many people saying it will never work. Car manufacturers now have to change people’s perceptions and it can only be done properly once EVERY car on the road is semi or fully autonomous plus a pilot to take over, and even then the autonomy will be quicker to react than a driver will. The issue is now that we have to train these systems to recognise everything from bears to bollards to bicycles to make it safe and then work down roads in the pitch black in the mud and rain when half the sensors are out. An aircraft would not fly if its main sensors are down simply not airworthy, yet people will drive a car if the Speedo is not showing the correct speed. The severity of the incident is not as bad as in an aircraft but the likelihood is billion fold at the moment.
     
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  18. MaDProFF

    MaDProFF Member

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    I personally think with the current hardware, there is no way the 3 will be 100% full driving capability, certainly not in the UK on our dodgy roads, missing white lines, crap weather and all the debris on the roads, then we have dodgy GpS connection and worse phone connection in our 3rd world country :). It might be fine on a nice wide motorway in the good weather.

    Not that it bothers me, I do not use it, I added it out of curiosity, and Maybe later when it is a little better for traffic, but in its currant form, it is not for me.
     
  19. spon88

    spon88 Member

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    Bang on! I didn't vote Leave and didn't buy FSD mind. Sadly looks like I'll still get one of them grrrrr
     
  20. m-i-l

    m-i-l Member

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    #20 m-i-l, Oct 21, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    The difference is, you aren't forced to buy FSD, and if you do opt to buy it and change your mind about it you don't have to keep on using it, plus you certainly won't have your children and your children's children still paying the price for it in future generations, not to mention that FSD should only improve over time because it is built by smart people who generally know what they are doing and are genuinely trying to create a better future rather by than a bunch of clueless idiots trying to recreate an imaginary past.
     
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