I agree. I get some stick for pointing out the faults of my Tesla. The thing is it’s with love. And concern that when the big boys catch up, is Tesla don’t sort out build quality people will quickly go off them. They have a head start on the EV game but they need to capitalise.
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The Pub - OT posts and discussions
- Thread starter m3p_uk
- Start date
I own a Tesla by choice so if I point out what I don't like about it I see no problem in that. I certainly don't have the time or desire to purchase something just for the sake of criticising it. I genuinely like the car and company and would like to see them do excellently. I think they have the best EV out at the moment. If they stopped leading the EV market would I jump ship immediately. Maybe, maybe not. Other things to consider for me like price, company ethos etc.
I meant there was no need to make the switch so large and take up a load of prime console space above an imaginary gearbox. I prefer the Tesla stalk for gear selection. I’d rather have storage space in the centre console.
Yes I know people still want more traditional controls. Until at some point in the future they don’t. Like at some point people will realise that it’s pointless in an EV having 2 round dials in a traditional dash binnacle.
Not sure I agree with that last sentiment. We are still measuring speed the same. Sure a rev counter is unnecessary but everything else can be measured in the traditional way and usually it looks a lot better that way. Screen got no soul
For me the screen has become more of a media/nav interface. Digital speed display is fine and actually easier to read precisely than an analogue dial. I’ve noticed most modern cars have both and I never look at the analogue version. Model S/X still have the pointless round power meter/energy display, replaced in the 3 by a simple straight line above the speed display.
Having now lived through several iterations of the Tesla UI I think it looks pretty cool. Okay the latest M3 split screen with huge FSD display is not so good. But whenever I jump back into a car with a traditional dash and controls it feels ancient!
It's interesting how people see things differently. One thing I really dislike about the M3 is the power regen bar. I much prefer the s/x power meter. You can barely see it sometimes. I kind of agree with the digital speedo it's easier to be accurate with your speed. I would prefer a dial for power and a dial for battery life. A traditional fuel bar can work fine with a modern fuel. I also miss buttons. It's nice to have controls always in the same place rather than move after a software update!
Also, and this is a niche thing and probably too nerdy for the mainstream. I'd like a battery temp gauge similar to a traditional oil temp gauge. I think as more high speed chargers come in and more people get used to charging speeds increasing when batteries are at optimum temp I think it would be a handy edition. So you can roughly work out if you'll get full charge from a fast charger.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
Many, many people have studied, in great depth, how human beings acquire and process visual data. It's been proven, time and time again, that the fastest way to acquire and process key visual information is to present it in a non-numerical form. Doesn't matter too much whether this is round dials, linear bar graph type displays, or some other way of being able to show something as a very simple image, although in tests round indicators usually come out best. Anything that avoids the need for a different data processing pathway, one that involves interpretation of numbers or letters for example, which is a great deal slower to process, is a good thing.
Tests with different ways of presenting information to people always, without fail, prove that people can interpret data very much faster if it's presented graphically, rather than numerically. Part of this is because much of the time there's no need to read some information to a high degree of accuracy, something like reading the time, or reading speed from a speedometer, just involves determining the relative position of a hand, needle or bar. With a speed display we only need to resolve it to about 10 mph, for example, just seeing a marker is higher or lower than the position where we know it should be for a desired speed is usually enough.
This key understanding of how we acquire and process visual information led to the unusual (to anyone not used to aircraft) arrangement where a lot of the older dial-type instruments were oriented so that the normal reading was with the needle pointing upwards. An extremely rapid (fraction of a second) scan across a panel almost instantly shows an anomaly, without the pilot actually reading the data from any of the instruments.
There's not a lot wrong with the principle of having a minimalist car cockpit, like that in the Model 3, if it's designed well, taking account of several decades of hard-won knowledge about the way human beings best acquire and process visual information. The central screen position isn't ideal, but if it presented data in a way that reduced the time the driver has to spend looking at it, rather than the road, it would be a great deal easier to use, and almost certainly safer.
Tests with different ways of presenting information to people always, without fail, prove that people can interpret data very much faster if it's presented graphically, rather than numerically. Part of this is because much of the time there's no need to read some information to a high degree of accuracy, something like reading the time, or reading speed from a speedometer, just involves determining the relative position of a hand, needle or bar. With a speed display we only need to resolve it to about 10 mph, for example, just seeing a marker is higher or lower than the position where we know it should be for a desired speed is usually enough.
This key understanding of how we acquire and process visual information led to the unusual (to anyone not used to aircraft) arrangement where a lot of the older dial-type instruments were oriented so that the normal reading was with the needle pointing upwards. An extremely rapid (fraction of a second) scan across a panel almost instantly shows an anomaly, without the pilot actually reading the data from any of the instruments.
There's not a lot wrong with the principle of having a minimalist car cockpit, like that in the Model 3, if it's designed well, taking account of several decades of hard-won knowledge about the way human beings best acquire and process visual information. The central screen position isn't ideal, but if it presented data in a way that reduced the time the driver has to spend looking at it, rather than the road, it would be a great deal easier to use, and almost certainly safer.
The only reason I ever look at the power bar is to see if there is a restriction on power or regen. I wouldn’t want the distraction of anything more prominent. The S/X version is easier to see, but it doesn’t need to be round and it certainly doesn’t need the useless embedded energy graph in the middle. I think they had the right idea with the M3 version but just made it a bit too thin!
I’m fine with the battery level bar. I have it set to show percentage so it looks just like my phone battery indicator. I’m not sure what a dial battery display would add to the party?
Battery temp gauge is a good idea, but I wouldn’t want it permanently displayed. Be nice to have it pop up when navigating to a Supercharger.
I guess I just don’t like mixing traditional buttons and dials with a modem touchscreen UI. Most automotive attempts at mixing them end up with displays that are way too small and sometimes oddly shaped. Then you have to guess whether a particular control is accessed directly from the screen or from some physical button/knob. At least with the Tesla M3 you are presented with a single decently sized hi-res tablet that doesn’t require arms like an orangutan to reach. Then it all comes down to the quality of the display UI and Tesla have done a pretty good job on that. At least compared to other automotive attempts. The Volvo UI for example is considerably less intuitive.
Difficult to argue with the science of these things, or properly analysed data. That said, it doesn't feel like it takes me any longer to process reading the speed in the M3 compared to my ICE. Personally I find it much easier to determine an accurate reading from the screen in the M3 in an instant. The fact that plod feels I should resolve my speed to an accuracy within 10mph when reading from a traditional dial is evidenced by the 3 points they recently awarded me
One of the most noticeable things about my first drive in a 3 was the complete absence of spurious non-essential trivia that normal cars through at you. My last car had three clocks....an analogue at the base of the console, one on the nav screen and one in the binnacle. It had three speedometers, all within a couple if inches of each other. A huge dial telling me how fast all the little bits of metal in the engine were spinning. All that crap is a throwback to the days when engines blew up every 5 minutes and a drive of more than 200 miles meant resetting the tappets on the side of the road.
It's intrusive and no matter how familiar you are with driving, they do take a tiny bit of attention away from the job at hand. I can ind it mildly hilarious that some car makers charge you extra for an engine RPM meter or see it as some sort of selling point.
What earthly reason would you want to know what temperature the battery is at? You can't do anything about it, you can't affect it and even if you could then you would do a worse job than the computer in the BMS.
It's intrusive and no matter how familiar you are with driving, they do take a tiny bit of attention away from the job at hand. I can ind it mildly hilarious that some car makers charge you extra for an engine RPM meter or see it as some sort of selling point.
What earthly reason would you want to know what temperature the battery is at? You can't do anything about it, you can't affect it and even if you could then you would do a worse job than the computer in the BMS.
I entirely agree with this regarding a rev counter. It needs to be presented graphically as you are using it to time gear shifts, so a numerical display will simply not work. It can be done in the form of a traditional dial or as a series of linear lights (racing car style). They both work fine.
But I disagree about speed. In a road car a decent numerical speed display easily trumps a traditional dial for me. In the age of speed cameras I want to know if I’m doing 30 mph, not 30 something. Our last Nissan had both numerical and analogue speed and I never once looked at the analogue display. I just glanced at the numerical speed to check I was on target. Same as I do in a Tesla. I’ve noticed HUD displays tend to show numerical speed too. The last thing I would want is a speed dial on a HUD.
Dials are a PITA for speed displays, especially when the marginfor error is small. Even more so when the dial reads up to a ridiculously high speed which makes the graduations too small. On my last Merc the Speedo dial was nothing more than a waste of space as it was nearly impossible to see if you were doing 27, 30 or 33....the graduations were just too small.
Difficult to argue with the science of these things, or properly analysed data. That said, it doesn't feel like it takes me any longer to process reading the speed in the M3 compared to my ICE. Personally I find it much easier to determine an accurate reading from the screen in the M3 in an instant. The fact that plod feels I should resolve my speed to an accuracy within 10mph when reading from a traditional dial is evidenced by the 3 points they recently awarded me
I honestly don’t think it does take any longer to read off a numerical speed. I’m pretty sure reading off a dial would take longer. The same way it takes longer to read an analogue weight scale vs digital. The only thing a dial helps with is the perception of rate of change, which is very useful with a rev counter in a manual car, but completely redundant in an EV
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
Depends whether you "read" the dial or note it's relative position. The fact that some cars have dial instruments (as described above) that are poor, because the marketing people want them to have an insane top speed marker and a very compressed scale is not a reason to dismiss the principle.
No matter what someone thinks, if you put large numbers of people in a test rig and flash key information in short bursts, everyone will "read" an analogue type display much faster and more accurately than numbers, if it's properly designed. Years ago, before stylists started messing about with instrument design, some cars had speedometers that had key speed markers, like 30mph, that were easily distinguishable, without needing to read the digits, for example.
If the dynamic range of a dial-type display is sensible, with a maximum speed indication at, say, 10 or 20mph over the maximum that can be driven on public roads, then it's easy enough to see at a very quick glance if the needle is a over or under the desired speed. If the indicator is over the 30mph marker, and you're in a 30mph limit, it doesn't matter if the true speed is 31mph or 35mph, does it?
No matter what someone thinks, if you put large numbers of people in a test rig and flash key information in short bursts, everyone will "read" an analogue type display much faster and more accurately than numbers, if it's properly designed. Years ago, before stylists started messing about with instrument design, some cars had speedometers that had key speed markers, like 30mph, that were easily distinguishable, without needing to read the digits, for example.
If the dynamic range of a dial-type display is sensible, with a maximum speed indication at, say, 10 or 20mph over the maximum that can be driven on public roads, then it's easy enough to see at a very quick glance if the needle is a over or under the desired speed. If the indicator is over the 30mph marker, and you're in a 30mph limit, it doesn't matter if the true speed is 31mph or 35mph, does it?
Cars are not planes. In a 'plane you need to quickly scan the Ts and Ps for a couple of reasons; an engine out consequences are far more serious when at 5,000 feet and secondly, light aircraft engines fail regularly. In a plane you have to be able to scan quickly and do a health check.
It's the opposite in cars. Dials, indicators and so on are a throwback to when car engines failed regularly. They are not needed in a modern car.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
Cars are far more demanding than aircraft when it comes to reducing the time spent eyes-in, so the need to have key information conveyed as quickly as possible is far more important. There are very few occasions when flying that a few seconds spent scanning instruments, looking at a chart, changing radio frequencies, etc poses any real risk. Driving a car is far more demanding, as just a second or two longer to read information from within the car could result in death.
The last accident I had, where my car was written off, was caused by exactly this. I'd stopped behind a queue of cars waiting for the one in front to turn right. A car drove into the back of me at around 40mph. There were not even any skid marks on the road, as the driver didn't have time to hit the brakes. It turned out that something had been making a rattling noise in her handbag, which was on the passenger seat. She took her eyes off the road to find what it was, and the next thing she knew she was hit by the airbags going off.
Your second point is, frankly,* irrelevant. All the dials in the world won't stop someone who allows themselves to be distracted by something or nothing. Do any motorway miles and you will spot lots of people for whom the act of driving doesn't seem to enter the top 10 things that they are doing at that particular moment.
Planes and cars operate in fundamentally different environments and have different needs. Dials are great for quick scans (is the needle in the green?) hence having them pointing straight up, or for showing the rate of change (a rev counter, for example). A numeric display is far better when you need to know an absolute measurement as opposed to a relative measurement. As I said before, the "analogue" speedo in my last car was functionally useless as the dial graduations were too small. It is simply not good enough to know that your speed is 10% plus-or-minus of nominal as that can result in a speeding ticket. You have to know the actual speed. In this instance a numeric display is superior as you can see it at a glance without having to concentrate on exactly where the needle is.
*Don't call me Frank
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
You're missing the point. The key thing is "How long does it take to acquire and process critical information?"
That's easy. Reading numeric information is always slower. It's demonstrably slower. Has been proven time and time again. If it's slower, that means more time spent eyes-in. More time spent eyes-in means less time spent with your eyes on the road and that means more chance of seeing a threat and taking avoiding action.
Citing a badly designed analogue instrument as some sort of "proof" that analogue information representation is somehow inherently worse is a flawed argument - a bad analogue instrument display can easily be worse than a very good digital display.
That's easy. Reading numeric information is always slower. It's demonstrably slower. Has been proven time and time again. If it's slower, that means more time spent eyes-in. More time spent eyes-in means less time spent with your eyes on the road and that means more chance of seeing a threat and taking avoiding action.
Citing a badly designed analogue instrument as some sort of "proof" that analogue information representation is somehow inherently worse is a flawed argument - a bad analogue instrument display can easily be worse than a very good digital display.
phil4
Member
If you think about it, and trusted Tesla, this is where they could be -very- smart with their display, and info.
For example - assuming for one second that the car knows the speed limit, it could choose to simply show you an up or down arrow (size dependent on the differential) as to whether to slow down or speed up to get to the limit... no need to show a guage or a number.
Likewise, with the power graph, no need to show you unless there's an issue. Same with battery guage, unless asked, don't show it.
As has been said much of the interior info is a throw back. With a smart car, an entirely dynamic display... you could do away with a lot more.