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The real benefit is V3 supercharging...

Fourdoor

Member
May 31, 2016
900
709
North East Arkansas
The main benefit is not having shared cabinets, so you never have your charging rate cut by someone who doesn't understand shared cabinets parking at the A that matches your B, or someone being forced to share due to the location being anything over 50% capacity.

This is regardless of driving style.

If you drive like Kyle Conner, driving for 100 miles, arrive at low SOC and only charge up to 50% or 60% before heading out, you up your ground speed (including charging time) from 67 mph on V2 to 71 mph on V3. This is not including time lost to getting off the highway, plugging in, and getting back on the highway. So, driving this way you get a 4 mph advantage from V3! This is significant over a 1000 mile trip (saves around 40 min), but for people going a few hundred miles it is negligible.

If you drive more normally, 150 miles or so, charging up to 75% to 80% your ground speed including charging time goes from 65 mph on V2 to 68 mph on V3. Once again, this is not including time lost to getting off the highway, plugging in, and getting back on the highway. It only makes a very small difference in how fast you can cover ground on a road trip. Driving this way you get a 3 mph advantage from V3! Once again, this is significant over a 1000 mile trip (saves around 35 min), but for people going a few hundred miles it is negligible.

The only time it would make a significant difference would be if they put V3 superchargers 60 miles apart and you were willing to stop at every one. That would increase your ground speed a bit... but due to the time to stop, plug in, and then get back on the highway even then it might be a wash time management wise... and definitely not worth the hassle in my opinion even if it DID significantly speed up a trip.

Later,

Keith

PS: Charging profiles may have changed since I compiled the charging speed data in the attached word document...

PPS: Can't edit title... should have been "of" V3 supercharging... not "is" V3 supercharging
 
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Johnny Vector

Member
Jun 21, 2020
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363
Maryland
This is very helpful, thanks for posting it. I hadn't really thought about it, but it makes sense. I'm definitely more of the "stop often and charge to 60% or less" persuasion, at least along I-95 which is where I travel the most. So my style does take the most advantage of the V3s, but now that you mention it the difference (assuming no slowdown due to V2 cabinet sharing) is still pretty minimal. Especially when you count the additional minutes getting to and from the charger.

So what I take from this is that there's no point in increasing charger peak power; the only way to significantly reduce charging time is to change batteries to accept higher charge rates at higher SoC.

I mean, personally I have no need for faster charging; the extra 15-20 minutes I spend during a 12 hour trip compared to ICE travel is more than made up the rest of the year by never having to visit a gas station. But for those who want that time back too, it's all about the taper.
 

Big Earl

bnkwupt
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Jul 12, 2017
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Springfield, VA
I question those average ground speeds. My average is about 60 MPH and I travel much like Kyle does (although I keep a slightly larger buffer). Out West with 80 MPH speed limits and V3 chargers, I can push that up to the mid 60s. A 70+ MPH average across an entire day (more than 600 miles) would be near impossible without traveling in excess of 90 MPH for extended periods of time, perfect Supercharger stops and ideal weather.

But yes, I absolutely agree that V3 makes a difference on a road trip, particularly when passing through areas with high utilization. Another benefit is cable cooling in the summer. V2 cables get so scorching hot in the summer sun that charge rates are significantly reduced. This can be minimized with the wet rag trick (very effective), but V3 cable cooling eliminates the problem.
 
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LoudMusic

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Jul 21, 2020
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I think improved ground speed is obviously an advantage, but having had my charge rate sniped by a neighbor at a V2 multiple times I can say this is far more detrimental than any gains you could possibly hope to have with the difference between V2 and V3.

In addition to that, I've actually only gotten peak speed from V3 a handful of times. It's usually faster than V2, but honestly not by a whole lot. Perhaps 180 to 200kW. I know there are a variety of reasons for this but my car nearly always preconditions for supercharging. And running to very low SoC will negate a portion of that preconditioning to preserve range. So you lose right back out on the perceived gains.

Regardless, V3s are CLEARLY superior to V2s. I just think it's for a different reason. The cords are thinner! ;)
 

CinciT$LA

New Member
Jun 3, 2021
4
1
Cincinnati OH
I question those average ground speeds. My average is about 60 MPH and I travel much like Kyle does (although I keep a slightly larger buffer). Out West with 80 MPH speed limits and V3 chargers, I can push that up to the mid 60s. A 70+ MPH average across an entire day (more than 600 miles) would be near impossible without traveling in excess of 90 MPH for extended periods of time, perfect Supercharger stops and ideal weather.

But yes, I absolutely agree that V3 makes a difference on a road trip, particularly when passing through areas with high utilization. Another benefit is cable cooling in the summer. V2 cables get so scorching hot in the summer sun that charge rates are significantly reduced. This can be minimized with the wet rag trick (very effective), but V3 cable cooling eliminates the problem.
Wet rag trick?
 
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Big Earl

bnkwupt
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Jul 12, 2017
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Wet rag trick?
4B33920A-A014-4DCB-89B5-3C1DF3F0EB7C.jpeg


Evaporative cooling for the win. Works best in hot, dry climates.

It’s only beneficial on V2 Superchargers (thick cable) since V3 have liquid-cooled cables.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,446
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San Diego
View attachment 676915

Evaporative cooling for the win. Works best in hot, dry climates.

It’s only beneficial on V2 Superchargers (thick cable) since V3 have liquid-cooled cables.
I tried this a few times on a recent 2600-mile road trip in 100-110 temperatures, on the occasions where I was forced to use the terrible V2 chargers. I didn't find that it was successful. I don't doubt that it helps if this is the actual problem, but my impression is that many of the V2 chargers are pretty garbage at this point, not limited by the temperature of the charging handle, and a better strategy (if there are enough open spots) is to move quickly to a better charger if you're not hitting the expected rate initially. And then apply the evaporative cooling strategy as well. I wouldn't expect the evaporative strategy to help too much, until there is substantial joule heating of the cable which would take a little while. So if you're not meeting the taper initially at an uncrowded station...the charger is probably garbage.

When it's 100 degrees and you've been driving for a couple hours, it's pretty easy to tell when the charger is bad, if you know what your taper profile looks like. Useful for taking the car battery temperature out of the picture.

I wasted 10 minutes of charging time in Klamath Falls trying to cool the charge handle with wet cloths packed with ice, etc. Should have just moved to a different station! There was never any hope. In the end I stayed at the station since the damage was done with underperforming the profile at that point (those first few minutes are SO important).

V3 chargers are awesome though. Consistently got good results, hitting 250kW every time, except once in Reno where the charging equipment had an error (I knew there were two that were bad, and my gambling luck was predictably poor). I hope they hold up well long term and don't fall into disrepair like the V2s. They are so amazing. In my opinion 250kW in combination with a reliable and well-distributed network with sufficient capacity (there are still plenty of holes) makes traveling by EV completely competitive with ICE vehicles (the charging stops will not slow down travel appreciably relative to ICE, for 95% of people (if you have a massive bladder, you're towing or have other massive efficiency hits of course are the exceptions)).
 
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Big Earl

bnkwupt
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Jul 12, 2017
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I tried this a few times on a recent 2600-mile road trip in 100-110 temperatures, on the occasions where I was forced to use the terrible V2 chargers. I didn't find that it was successful. I don't doubt that it helps if this is the actual problem, but my impression is that many of the V2 chargers are pretty garbage at this point, not limited by the temperature of the charging handle, and a better strategy (if there are enough open spots) is to move quickly to a better charger if you're not hitting the expected rate initially. And then apply the evaporative cooling strategy as well. I wouldn't expect the evaporative strategy to help too much, until there is substantial joule heating of the cable which would take a little while. So if you're not meeting the taper initially at an uncrowded station...the charger is probably garbage.

When it's 100 degrees and you've been driving for a couple hours, it's pretty easy to tell when the charger is bad, if you know what your taper profile looks like. Useful for taking the car battery temperature out of the picture.

I wasted 10 minutes of charging time in Klamath Falls trying to cool the charge handle with wet cloths packed with ice, etc. Should have just moved to a different station! There was never any hope. In the end I stayed at the station since the damage was done with underperforming the profile at that point (those first few minutes are SO important).

V3 chargers are awesome though. Consistently got good results, hitting 250kW every time, except once in Reno where the charging equipment had an error (I knew there were two that were bad, and my gambling luck was predictably poor). I hope they hold up well long term and don't fall into disrepair like the V2s. They are so amazing. In my opinion 250kW in combination with a reliable and well-distributed network with sufficient capacity (there are still plenty of holes) makes traveling by EV completely competitive with ICE vehicles (the charging stops will not slow down travel appreciably relative to ICE, for 95% of people (if you have a massive bladder, you're towing or have other massive efficiency hits of course are the exceptions)).
Oh, for sure; the wet rag trick isn’t a panacea. It won’t solve charger malfunctions nor an overheating equipment cabinet. The only thing it can help with is an overheated handle, which in my experience can happen about half way through a charging session when the handle is in direct sun on a hot day.

I don’t usually bother applying the rag unless I see a reduction in charging speed combined with a hot handle. If it starts out slow, I’ll just move to another charger.

On your trip with temps over 100F, you were probably running into thermal limits with the charging cabinet. V3s seem to be better about that, too.
 
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AlanSubie4Life

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Oct 22, 2018
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San Diego
On your trip with temps over 100F, you were probably running into thermal limits with the charging cabinet. V3s seem to be better about that, too.

Maybe, but I don't think so. Klamath Falls northbound was fine, at higher temperatures, with higher utilization. Southbound, it was more quiet, still had some morning "cool" (was around 10:30AM and probably about 90 degrees, with the car having been run continuously for 3 hours, starting from a 70 degree cold soak overnight - there was no preconditioning for supercharging needed as I recall). I should have just picked the same charger I used on the northbound leg. Instead I ended up in the situation I was in. When by myself I have fewer reservations about moving, but I had wife and dogs in tow so it just wasn't convenient in this case - though I regretted it.

It also tricked me by starting out at around 135kW and then it very quickly dropped to ~75kW (not sure when). When I saw that 135kW I should have just moved to something that gave me 150kW. Live and learn. In hot weather, I always expect to get 150kW, unless there are obvious reasons I should not be getting that. In future I will move if I don't.

One of the reasons I like the V3 is that they seem (so far) to be much more reliable. They either work or they don't (rather than a continuous slippery slope of decay), and I don't recall having to shuffle around unless they are completely broken. I'm sure there are examples of failing V3s as well, I just haven't encountered them yet.
 

Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
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I think I’ve only seen 150 kW on a V2 a handful of times. Nominal is 144. Anything over 130 and I’m satisfied, especially since battery conditioning can knock the displayed number down by 7 kW. Most of my V2 charging sessions have been in the high 130s and low 140s depending on various factors, excluding busy sites and tired or broken equipment.

Another phenomenon I’ve encountered recently is site limiting due to maxing out the transformer. Lots of little 500 kVA boxes powering some of these old V2 and even some new V3 sites, although the latter are predominately 1000 kVA feeds.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,446
12,698
San Diego
I think I’ve only seen 150 kW on a V2 a handful of times. Nominal is 144. Anything over 130 and I’m satisfied, especially since battery conditioning can knock the displayed number down by 7 kW.

Interesting - I'll have to pay closer attention! I'm certain I've seen substantially over 140kW, but I can't remember exactly the max I've seen. On this trip there were only a couple of opportunities, so not sure what the max I saw was. All I know is that the mid 130s number was notably low.
 

outdoors

Always roaming
Supporting Member
Aug 10, 2014
1,681
2,878
in the moment
I question those average ground speeds. My average is about 60 MPH and I travel much like Kyle does (although I keep a slightly larger buffer). Out West with 80 MPH speed limits and V3 chargers, I can push that up to the mid 60s. A 70+ MPH average across an entire day (more than 600 miles) would be near impossible without traveling in excess of 90 MPH for extended periods of time, perfect Supercharger stops and ideal weather.

But yes, I absolutely agree that V3 makes a difference on a road trip, particularly when passing through areas with high utilization. Another benefit is cable cooling in the summer. V2 cables get so scorching hot in the summer sun that charge rates are significantly reduced. This can be minimized with the wet rag trick (very effective), but V3 cable cooling eliminates the problem.
Many a thousand mile day, but this is not the time of year for sure. Heat is good, but this is too much all around. Cables, summer travel, construction. I prefer fall, and even winter if dry and can get out of cold quick enough with a hot battery going south.
 
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Fourdoor

Member
May 31, 2016
900
709
North East Arkansas
Maybe, but I don't think so. Klamath Falls northbound was fine, at higher temperatures, with higher utilization. Southbound, it was more quiet, still had some morning "cool" (was around 10:30AM and probably about 90 degrees, with the car having been run continuously for 3 hours, starting from a 70 degree cold soak overnight - there was no preconditioning for supercharging needed as I recall). I should have just picked the same charger I used on the northbound leg. Instead I ended up in the situation I was in. When by myself I have fewer reservations about moving, but I had wife and dogs in tow so it just wasn't convenient in this case - though I regretted it.

It also tricked me by starting out at around 135kW and then it very quickly dropped to ~75kW (not sure when). When I saw that 135kW I should have just moved to something that gave me 150kW. Live and learn. In hot weather, I always expect to get 150kW, unless there are obvious reasons I should not be getting that. In future I will move if I don't.

One of the reasons I like the V3 is that they seem (so far) to be much more reliable. They either work or they don't (rather than a continuous slippery slope of decay), and I don't recall having to shuffle around unless they are completely broken. I'm sure there are examples of failing V3s as well, I just haven't encountered them yet.

Funniest thing in the world coming from the Bolt EV world was the idea that Superchargers were not universally perfect in operation. That is the information fanboys put out to the world while taking crap about the CCS charging infrastructure, and it is what I expected to get until I discovered Kyle Conner's video's.
Him showing Superchargers that don't work at all, or work at a reduced rate even when not being shared, etc. were an eye opener for me, as well as the wet rag trick for superchargers suffering from over heated handles due to solar heating and ambient heat.

Thanks to Kyle if I have poor charging at a Supercharger where I am not sharing a cabinet I will just move to a different station... exactly like I do with my Bolt at an Electrify America station :)

Keith
 
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