The Real Use for Auto-Pilot

[turnem]

Love AP and FSD, even in this embryonic state. Definitely one reason I bought my M3 and am all in on its development. Just wish there was a way to tighten up the distance behind other vehicles in heavy traffic - even at supposedly 1 car length, the gap is a like an open invite for other cars to cut in, at least in metro NY area. Drivers here are not bashful or particularly gentile.

Agree that they need to tighten this up a bit as well. I'd like to see the car come to a near stop and then creep up a bit to close the gap.

The other thing that they need to work on is resuming from a stop. Currently the car in front of you will gain up to 10 or so car lengths on you which invites folks to cut in front of you OR in a worst case scenario could fool someone into thinking that you are leaving room for them to turn into your lane... I've had this happen a few times. So I currently nudge the accelerator a bit if the gap is getting to be too large.

 

[Beprimeau]

I got the Traffic Aware Cruise Control because we were taking a long trip, but before we ever got on the interstate I discovered the beauty of it handling stop-and-go city traffic. That is absolutely the best thing about it!

We added the Full Self Driving mostly so as not to miss out on the promised future developments in autonomy. I was skeptical that I would like it that much, since, like many, I don't find steering the car a big chore! However, I have been surprised at the degree to which it makes long highway drives more relaxing. I would say it decreases the mental effort needed by 30-50%.

No one has mentioned the third best thing about it: the fascinating hobby of seeing how it handles different traffic situations! Maybe that will wear off after we've had it longer, but I still find it amusing to sit back and watch and see how it does (always ready to jump in and take over!). My wife likened it to watching your kid at a Little League game and just hoping they'll handle that grounder! We are learning its weaknesses but also are impressed and excited by its successes!

 

[Regulator]

Just watch out for sudden braking sometimes. Sometimes it starts tracking vehicles in adjacent lanes and TACC triggers on them as if they are about to cut in front of you.

Yep. This occasionally happens to my wife with her M3 as she approaches cars - typically only white cars.

 

[radiocycle]

Just wish there was a way to tighten up the distance behind other vehicles in heavy traffic - even at supposedly 1 car length, the gap is a like an open invite for other cars to cut in, at least in metro NY area. Drivers here are not bashful or particularly gentile.

Sounds to me like not only are they not bashful nor gentle, they are rude, inconsiderate, illegal (never mind the '3 second rule') while putting other's lives at risk. 'Filling in the gap' is not a safety technique found in the CA Driver Handbook!

 

[Rich A.]

There are three options to disengage Autopilot on a Tesla:

1. Take assertive control of the steering wheel.
2. Press the brake pedal.
3. Press up on the gear stalk (Model 3 / Y) or push out on the Autopilot stalk (Model S / X)

The go pedal only accelerates the car, it will remain at cruise control (though with no TACC braking) and Autosteer and coast back to the set speed when you let off the accelerator.

I wanted to add that you only have to really tap the brake pedal slightly, not necessarily enough to significantly slow down the car. So experiment with the brake pedal, and become familiar with the "feel".

 

[Rich A.]

Sounds to me like not only are they not bashful nor gentle, they are rude, inconsiderate, illegal (never mind the '3 second rule') while putting other's lives at risk. 'Filling in the gap' is not a safety technique found in the CA Driver Handbook!

Despite your opinion of other drivers, Tesla's autopilot nonetheless leaves quite a significant distance between your car and the vehicle in front of you, I would assume for safety. My experience is that, in heavy traffic, my Tesla can nearly stay put while cars on both sides of me cut in front. Autopilot is awesome in medium traffic, but in very heavy (walking speed+) traffic where you have to be especially aggressive, I usually decide to take over. To me, Autopilot is most effective on the open road in light traffic, and in medium-heavy commute traffic (bridges and tunnels, for example).

 

[trak0r]

Interesting. So many stories of people loving AP. My experience was different. I just wasn't very impressed.

My M3 is used mostly for commuting from Oakland to SF and back every day. So I travel through neighborhood/residential, city, and 3-4 different limited-access highways in 40 minutes each way.

(NB: I should mention that I do not consider driving on public roads to be a chore or particularly mentally taxing as a baseline. Most people are garbage drivers, so I consider my job to get from point A to point B without letting anyone try to kill me, and that's all. I did some quantitative studies long ago showing that defensive/low-aggression driving adds less than a minute to my 40 minute commute. Long following distances, as few lane changes as possible, identify and avoid poor drivers, look way ahead, always leave an out, zero aggression.)

Anyway, my observations of AP were:

• When no traffic present, was about the same as regular cruise control
• In heavy traffic, reduced mental load by maybe 10%ish (again reiterating that I don't get particularly anxious in the first place)
• In flowing but heavy traffic, AP does not drive defensively. It does not leave itself outs or set itself up for smoothness (e.g. I know my target lane for ease of exit, and I switch to that lane whenever an easy opportunity presents itself). AP would sit in people's blind spots, leave inappropriate follow distances at low speeds which would lead to me getting cut off, etc. It doesn't anticipate that the guy to the left is getting twitchy and are clearly going to dive-bomb the next exit so you better give him some extra space or he'll do something stupid. Etc. It stressed me out how "dumb" AP was vs. just driving myself.
• I tried using AP various places, but really the only place I could use it reliably was on the Bay Bridge, only after the toll plazas, and only after the post-plaza merge, which is a total of like 10 minutes of my 40 minute commute.

So I figured it was marginally valuable but probably not worth $3,000, and then after some strange behavior chasing lane lines, I decided I trusted it less than I trust myself. I guess I could see some limited situations where it could be nice, especially if it were free. But in general, I feel there is a long, long way to go with the technology before it would be valuable for my situation.

Mostly agree with this guy and in addition, on many of the roads where I live, AP tried to run me into cement barriers on many occasions and plow through obvious construction zones barricades (fortunately I never trusted Tesla AP and took control, but I could see many others wrecking). I decided not to buy after trial ended. Not worth the headache especially since now they bring the safest part to the masses (auto correct if your about to leave lane unintentionally). So, I might still pay like $500 for TACC for that once in a blue moon trip where it was make driving less irritating, but definitely not in freeway traffic since it doesn't have knowledge base... yet. I would actually prefer a rental system... Tesla could offer it for $20/day. I would probably just barely hit $500 in 10 years

 

[edigest]

... Tesla's autopilot nonetheless leaves quite a significant distance between your car and the vehicle in front of you....

Just an FYI, you can adjust the distance you follow the vehicle in front of you. You can set a default from the touchscreen and change it on-the-fly using the right-side scroll wheel on the steering wheel.

 

[shellderp]

I wanted to add that you only have to really tap the brake pedal slightly, not necessarily enough to significantly slow down the car. So experiment with the brake pedal, and become familiar with the "feel".

but also keep in mind as soon as it disengages, regen kicks in and will brake really fast if you're not ready for it

 

[Paperfolder]

I’m really enjoying this discussion! As one who tried AP via the two-week free trial, and again with a Tesla loner when my MS was at the Service Center, I just didn’t enjoy the experience and have wondered what others have valued in AP. Thanks for the insights!

As someone who enjoys driving (we have two older Porsches in the garage, 1970 911S & 1971 911E Targa), I guess I just don’t like giving control away. (Can’t teach an old engineer new tricks?) Plus, I don’t have to deal with big city traffic and long commutes.

I recently drove our Tesla S to Yellowstone, and I agree with previous comments that it is a superb ride, even without AP. So comfortable and easy to drive. What a great car!

 

[Hugh-SG]

I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, which is always miserable. Turned on AP, and let the car take over.
This is what AP is for. Being able to sit back and relax in heavy traffic.
Love it.

Well said sir. Up here in Vancouver, when the whole city tries to squeeze itself over 7 bridges twice a day, EAP-2.0 pulls my stress level down out of the stratosphere and makes it a more relaxed experience.

EAP also turns a 900km cross country drive into something to be enjoyed and looked forward to, not endured with gritted teeth and sweaty palms.

 

[darth_vad3r]

Until the stop and go gets above 5mph, I feel fine reading a book while it drives so long as there are good line markings.

You don't actually read a book in stop and go, do you? You know it doesn't avoid road debris so you could drive right over or through a massive pothole, broken glass, nails, wood, etc. that's just sitting there in plain sight so easy to avoid at 5mph while your AP car drives right through it while you read

 

[raptor5244]

Anyone else think the AP needs to be tuned to start slowing down a bit sooner when approaching stopped cars ahead? I feel like the developers tuning AP are "late-brakers". My car comes in hot and then brakes pretty hard. Then like others mentioned in the thread it waits too long to follow the car in front of you from a stop. Also, when it sees a car merge into your lane ahead of you it likes to overreact by panic braking too hard. I really wish it could self-learn your driving style by recording how we react to driving situations. I can really only play around with AP when driving alone. If anyone else is with me in the car and I let AP do it's thing I will get the "Cut it out!" comments from the peanut gallery and I will say, "It's not me, it's the car, it is still learning."

 

[Saghost]

Anyone else think the AP needs to be tuned to start slowing down a bit sooner when approaching stopped cars ahead? I feel like the developers tuning AP are "late-brakers". My car comes in hot and then brakes pretty hard. Then like others mentioned in the thread it waits too long to follow the car in front of you from a stop. Also, when it sees a car merge into your lane ahead of you it likes to overreact by panic braking too hard. I really wish it could self-learn your driving style by recording how we react to driving situations. I can really only play around with AP when driving alone. If anyone else is with me in the car and I let AP do it's thing I will get the "Cut it out!" comments from the peanut gallery and I will say, "It's not me, it's the car, it is still learning."

With AP1, yes I definitely felt that way. I'm still getting used to AP3, but it seems to do a pretty good job with this so far - certainly much better than AP1 about it.

 

[bxr140]

Anyone else think the AP needs to be tuned to start slowing down a bit sooner when approaching stopped cars ahead?

Yes. IMHO, AP is pretty infuriating without significant driver augmentation, like turning off to make deceleration and lane changes more natural, and [either] manually speeding up or manually adjusting speed cap to make the too-much-or-too-little acceleration more natural.

Like it or not, AP has all the grace and fluidity of my eyesight questionable grandmother two-foot driving her old buck LeSabre.

Mind, I use AP almost all the time. I’m not going to completely dismiss a technology that’s still minor leagues, because IMHO there’s still net positive value there. The good news is that I knew of the shortcomings from previous AP experiences and as such didn’t set my expectations too high.

For me, the most valuable aspect of AP is the additional safety net should I as an imperfect human being (GASP!) fail to properly operate my vehicle. The other major benefit—as many have noted—is the improvement in fatigue. Its pretty obvious where interventions are required, so having to anticipate and take over all the time is still net positive for me when it comes to overall fatigue.

Here’s hoping future software revisions will make the autonomy more natural, and preferably with some usable driver tuneability . Right now It’s got all the compliance and realism of a TIki-bird anamatronic. While the realism of the tiki show may have been revolutionary back in the late 50’s, it’s left something to be desired...since about the early 60’s.

 

[JulienW]

Anyone else think the AP needs to be tuned to start slowing down a bit sooner when approaching stopped cars ahead? I feel like the developers tuning AP are "late-brakers". My car comes in hot and then brakes pretty hard. Then like others mentioned in the thread it waits too long to follow the car in front of you from a stop.....

FULLY agree On braking 1) it is disconcerting coming to cars stopped at a red light "at full speed". 2) Also this WASTE regen by clamping on the frictions and added wear to the pads too.

Oddly Autopilot is VERY aggressive (in a good way) in creeping traffic. It speeds up quickly and follows cars consistently.......but let it come to a full STOP and it is like the Model 3 forgets how to drive when stoped. I ALWAYS press the go peddle to get it started. Wonder why this is SO BAD and hasn't been addressed yet?

 

[raptor5244]

FULLY agree On braking 1) it is disconcerting coming to cars stopped at a red light "at full speed". 2) Also this WASTE regen by clamping on the frictions and added wear to the pads too.

Oddly Autopilot is VERY aggressive (in a good way) in creeping traffic. It speeds up quickly and follows cars consistently.......but let it come to a full STOP and it is like the Model 3 forgets how to drive when stoped. I ALWAYS press the go peddle to get it started. Wonder why this is SO BAD and hasn't been addressed yet?

More than likely it is just programmed to create enough space between the cars so that it can have enough time to react if the cars in front suddenly brake again.

IMO, AP is a bit dangerous right now because it is good enough for you to use it in stop and go but I am just worried folks will trust it a little too much and start blowing through traffic lights, missing their turns and over-correcting, etc. On the highway it is great and really does reduce some fatigue. Looking forward to seeing it improve over time.

 

[daver3]

I've never really understood the love for auto-pilot...this is a car I love to drive, why would I want to take that away?
I've tried it on the highways, and enjoyed the novelty for a few seconds, and then turned it back off. To be fair, I never really used cruise control on any cars I've had.

But this morning, for the first time, I loved AP.

I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, which is always miserable. Turned on AP, and let the car take over.
This is what AP is for. Being able to sit back and relax in heavy traffic.

Love it.

I drive 30 miles each way to work and back, all highway and frequently bad traffic, AP takes all the stress away.

 

[RogerHScott]

Anyone else think the AP needs to be tuned to start slowing down a bit sooner when approaching stopped cars ahead? I feel like the developers tuning AP are "late-brakers". My car comes in hot and then brakes pretty hard. Then like others mentioned in the thread it waits too long to follow the car in front of you from a stop. Also, when it sees a car merge into your lane ahead of you it likes to overreact by panic braking too hard. I really wish it could self-learn your driving style by recording how we react to driving situations. I can really only play around with AP when driving alone. If anyone else is with me in the car and I let AP do it's thing I will get the "Cut it out!" comments from the peanut gallery and I will say, "It's not me, it's the car, it is still learning."

I don't know for sure, but I suspect it is related to following distance. If so, I wish the two were separate but I find it nerve-wracking to come in that hot behind another car, but I don't want huge gaps at cruising speed. Since I don't see any indication on the display that it even knows another car is there to start braking for, I don't hold out much hope for this changing. In fairness, though, I'm actually impressed by how smoothly it accomplishes that much deceleration.

 

[pvogel]

Anyone else think the AP needs to be tuned to start slowing down a bit sooner when approaching stopped cars ahead? I feel like the developers tuning AP are "late-brakers". My car comes in hot and then brakes pretty hard. Then like others mentioned in the thread it waits too long to follow the car in front of you from a stop. Also, when it sees a car merge into your lane ahead of you it likes to overreact by panic braking too hard. I really wish it could self-learn your driving style by recording how we react to driving situations. I can really only play around with AP when driving alone. If anyone else is with me in the car and I let AP do it's thing I will get the "Cut it out!" comments from the peanut gallery and I will say, "It's not me, it's the car, it is still learning."

Completely agree with AP 2.5 -- Even with Chill mode turned on. My sense is that the forward cameras aren't looking far enough ahead to see that things are slow. I think it comes down to a couple of things:
1. not looking far enough ahead to see a car in my lane that I can see as the driver.
2. Even if it DOES see the car up ahead, if the car is stopped or moving very slowly, it takes too long to figure out that the car is stopped/slow (we know there are issues with detecting "stopped" vehicles) and so it happily continues accelerating to the set speed. Then figures out that the car ahead is stopped or slow and slams on the brakes.

I haven't figured out yet WHY it cannot figure out a stopped/slow vehicle. This is one of the most basic things that our personal neural nets are very good at. Just from 101 traffic in the Bay Area there should be more than enough data to train the NN to detect a stopped vehicle in a traffic lane.