The signature series is suppose to be more expensive.

[InsanityWolf]

I am not sure why some people are upset that the Signature series will cost 3k-6k more than a similar optioned standard series. Most special editions of anything arent really that different in production costs than the standard version of that product. They might have special colors or designs but they will never justify the actual cost of making it a "special" version.

Top 10 Limited Edition iPods - IGN

Your reward for getting a signature series is so you can be one of the first people in the world who get to drive a Tesla Model S. You cut everybody in line. When the signature series runs out, none of your neighbors or friends can just go to a store to get one even if they had the money, they have to wait 6 months to a year. You also get special colors and leather trims. And after the exclusivity period ends, your reward is that you will have in your possession a limited edition model that will never be made again and may be worth more, retaining more value. The general productions, however, will be duplicated for years to come.

No, I don't think Tesla is trying to jack you or hurt their supporters. I think some people felt that Tesla should have made the specials and standard editions the same price, but people who are in line first get the specials. They want more benefits from their deposit and not just spot in line which is what deposits normally do. I am not sure why some feel entitled to get anything more than that.

 

[ckessel]

a) It wasn't more expensive for the Roadster
b) Comparing a very early deposit in a company that nearly went bankrupt and has never seen a profit isn't nearly the same thing as such a deposit in a company like Honda/Lexus/Mercedes/etc.

 

[Arnold Panz]

I am not sure why some people are upset that the Signature series will cost 3k-6k more than a similar optioned standard series. Most special editions of anything arent really that different in production costs than the standard version of that product. They might have special colors or designs but they will never justify the actual cost of making it a "special" version.

Top 10 Limited Edition iPods - IGN

Your reward for getting a signature series is so you can be one of the first people in the world who get to drive a Tesla Model S. You cut everybody in line. When the signature series runs out, none of your neighbors or friends can just go to a store to get one even if they had the money, they have to wait 6 months to a year. You also get special colors and leather trims. And after the exclusivity period ends, your reward is that you will have in your possession a limited edition model that will never be made again and may be worth more, retaining more value. The general productions, however, will be duplicated for years to come.

No, I don't think Tesla is trying to jack you or hurt their supporters. I think some people felt that Tesla should have made the specials and standard editions the same price, but people who are in line first get the specials. They want more benefits from their deposit and not just spot in line which is what deposits normally do. I am not sure why some feel entitled to get anything more than that.

That's a very interesting argument, and I more or less agree with you for anyone who reserves a Signature now that they get a huge benefit by being able to cut the line by 6 months or more. If someone was going to get a fully loaded car anyway, it could absolutely be worth a few thousand dollars difference to make that big a jump in line.

For me, I made a reservation (non-Sig) on the first day back in March 2009, and waited to see what the Sig had before reserving one. Once they announced that it would have the 300 mile battery pack and child seat options, I was in, which was earlier this year. This means probably a one to two month difference in when I' get the car. That's hardly worth $5000, even to people with tons of money to burn (which I'm not).

I realize that money is cheap these days, but the point is that back in 2009 when reservations started, the $40k per Sig was very important to Tesla for cash flow purposes, long before they go their US government loan money, or even additional round of financing. As others have noted, it was an all-risk situation for what was then a much less stable car company. I remember Elon basically promising (and then having to walk back) that he would personally pay people back on their deposits if the company went belly up. Even earlier this year when I reserved the Sig, it was very much a leap of faith, and for me it's probably a maximum of a month or two difference from when I get the car. My thinking was, if I want a fully loaded car anyway, why not get a Sig, which should have the cool badging and, at a minimum, not cost more than am equivalent non-Sig would?

So if I could get my old spot in line back, why wouldn't I just take it and wait an additional month or two to get the car? I would love to have the specially badged car, but I assumed that my early leap of faith in Tesla (not everyone has $40k laying around to give to a car company for 2+ years) would be rewarded with the badging, not a sort of punishment to pay more for essentially the same car with (possibly) a different exterior color.

 

[InsanityWolf]

You were rewarded by getting the car before people who has less faith than you. What makes you think you are entitled to more?

 

[InsanityWolf]

a) It wasn't more expensive for the Roadster
b) Comparing a very early deposit in a company that nearly went bankrupt and has never seen a profit isn't nearly the same thing as such a deposit in a company like Honda/Lexus/Mercedes/etc.

You were rewarded by getting the car before people who has less faith than you. What makes you think you are entitled to more?

 

[InsanityWolf]

That's a very interesting argument, and I more or less agree with you for anyone who reserves a Signature now that they get a huge benefit by being able to cut the line by 6 months or more. If someone was going to get a fully loaded car anyway, it could absolutely be worth a few thousand dollars difference to make that big a jump in line.

For me, I made a reservation (non-Sig) on the first day back in March 2009, and waited to see what the Sig had before reserving one. Once they announced that it would have the 300 mile battery pack and child seat options, I was in, which was earlier this year. This means probably a one to two month difference in when I' get the car. That's hardly worth $5000, even to people with tons of money to burn (which I'm not).

I realize that money is cheap these days, but the point is that back in 2009 when reservations started, the $40k per Sig was very important to Tesla for cash flow purposes, long before they go their US government loan money, or even additional round of financing. As others have noted, it was an all-risk situation for what was then a much less stable car company. I remember Elon basically promising (and then having to walk back) that he would personally pay people back on their deposits if the company went belly up. Even earlier this year when I reserved the Sig, it was very much a leap of faith, and for me it's probably a maximum of a month or two difference from when I get the car. My thinking was, if I want a fully loaded car anyway, why not get a Sig, which should have the cool badging and, at a minimum, not cost more than am equivalent non-Sig would?

So if I could get my old spot in line back, why wouldn't I just take it and wait an additional month or two to get the car? I would love to have the specially badged car, but I assumed that my early leap of faith in Tesla (not everyone has $40k laying around to give to a car company for 2+ years) would be rewarded with the badging, not a sort of punishment to pay more for essentially the same car with (possibly) a different exterior color.

I see what your sayinjg

 

[InsanityWolf]

you're* saying*

 

[ckessel]

You were rewarded by getting the car before people who has less faith than you. What makes you think you are entitled to more?

I just answered that, though you apparently choose not to see it that way.

 

[InsanityWolf]

I just answered that, though you apparently choose not to see it that way.

uh no. No one promised you anything but a spot in line. You knew what you were getting yourself into when you placed a deposit.

 

[onlinespending]

So this is what you created your account to make your post about?

I don't disagree that under normal circumstances signature editions should cost more. And I agree that anyone that were to take out a Sig reservation today should pay more for the privilege of cutting in line. But for someone that put down $40k two years ago, he doesn't stand to gain anything over someone that does the same today (other than being slightly further up in the line, which may be a meaningless thing considering the first production batch may satisfy nearly all Sig holders). To say that early adopters aren't deserving of anything is to ignore the fact that Tesla's very existence was propped up by those that were willing to take on a rather huge risk of essentially providing an interest free loan to the fledging company in the amount of $40,000. They could offer a small token of appreciation (e.g. free pano roof upgrade or something) to those select individuals.

 

[Arnold Panz]

So this is what you created your account to make your post about?

I don't disagree that under normal circumstances signature editions should cost more. And I agree that anyone that were to take out a Sig reservation today should pay more for the privilege of cutting in line. But for someone that put down $40k two years ago, he doesn't stand to gain anything over someone that does the same today (other than being slightly further up in the line, which may be a meaningless thing considering the first production batch may satisfy nearly all Sig holders). To say that early adopters aren't deserving of anything is to ignore the fact that Tesla's very existence was propped up by those that were willing to take on a rather huge risk of essentially providing an interest free loan to the fledging company in the amount of $40,000. They could offer a small token of appreciation (e.g. free pano roof upgrade or something) to those select individuals.

I think this is the only possible option for Tesla at this point -- give Sigs some amount of credits to spend on options (pano roof, child seats, HPC etc.), or free service or something, to make up for the price difference. As much as it seems unfair, I don't see how you draw a distinction between early and late Sig reservers.

 

[InsanityWolf]

So this is what you created your account to make your post about?

I don't disagree that under normal circumstances signature editions should cost more. And I agree that anyone that were to take out a Sig reservation today should pay more for the privilege of cutting in line. But for someone that put down $40k two years ago, he doesn't stand to gain anything over someone that does the same today (other than being slightly further up in the line, which may be a meaningless thing considering the first production batch may satisfy nearly all Sig holders). To say that early adopters aren't deserving of anything is to ignore the fact that Tesla's very existence was propped up by those that were willing to take on a rather huge risk of essentially providing an interest free loan to the fledging company in the amount of $40,000. They could offer a small token of appreciation (e.g. free pano roof upgrade or something) to those select individuals.

I agree with you that the 40k people who gave Tesla money two years ago should get something but isnt that a different issue? Its more of the bonus Tesla should give you get if you deposited 2 years ago, rather than a signature vs standard pricing issue. For example, what if someone reserved the Sig today, would he get the same perk as the guy who deposited 40k on the sig two years ago?

 

[ckessel]

uh no. No one promised you anything but a spot in line. You knew what you were getting yourself into when you placed a deposit.

You said you weren't sure why people were upset. I gave you answers. You don't apparently happen to like them or think those answers are valid. *shrug*, okay, then why did you post if you're going to disregard people that answer?

And no, we had no idea what we were getting into. There was no information released until this week about what those reservations meant. We could only guess based on the Roadster experience with Sigs.

You don't seem to be able to understand our point of view. You have your own and you seem to be wedded to it. I don't need to convince you I'm right, but I would expect you to comprehend my position.

 

[Arnold Panz]

I'd also point out that most car companies (and hopefully Tesla as well) make very high margins on their options, so a fully loaded Signature, even at the same or lower price, should still make them a tidy profit because Sig reservers are locked in to accepting almost every option. That's another good reason that Tesla had to not charge us more than for a "regular" car. There are a couple of options (sound system, twin chargers) that I probably wouldn't get if I don't get the Signature, so I'll actually save even more money if I drop down to a non-Sig reservation. That can't be good for business.

 

[dsm363]

uh no. No one promised you anything but a spot in line. You knew what you were getting yourself into when you placed a deposit.

Umm.. 1) Welcome. Great way to introduce yourself to the forum
2) I also will have had a deposit down since April 2009. I was promised it would be fully loaded and have an option set that couldn't be reproduced in the regular production.
3). Welcome again.

 

[smorgasbord]

To say that early adopters aren't deserving of anything ....

So, now you're saying that early Signature reservation holders should get free options just because they were early, and that new Signature owners should not get those options even though they're putting down the same money?

Did Tesla say ANYTHING ever about doing that? You think you deserve an award for putting down an early deposit? Were you somehow pressured into putting down a $40,000 deposit? I suppose you expect the people who line up outside Apple stores the evening before the new iPhone is available should get a free memory upgrade.

 

[ckessel]

Did Tesla say ANYTHING ever about doing that?

Tesla never said anything period. I think that's the problem, that folks have had years to ingrain assumptions about what should happen.

 

[onlinespending]

So, now you're saying that early Signature reservation holders should get free options just because they were early, and that new Signature owners should not get those options even though they're putting down the same money?

Did Tesla say ANYTHING ever about doing that? You think you deserve an award for putting down an early deposit? Were you somehow pressured into putting down a $40,000 deposit? I suppose you expect the people who line up outside Apple stores the evening before the new iPhone is available should get a free memory upgrade.

First of all, I'm not even a Sig reservation holder. But I sympathize with them. Apparently you do not. And I'm not even set on what needs to be done for those people that took on the risk, but it's poor that Tesla did nothing for those that had faith in the company and assumed all that risk. Suppose you were starting your own company and your close friends and relatives lent you money. Would you just snub your nose at those people if you became successful and simply hand back their original investment? If you did, that'd be terrible. But fortunately, when someone invests in a young company they are usually rewarded with a stake in the company. The reward is commensurate with the risk.

From the Pricing/Option Aftermath thread:

I don't know. Make the line the date of the price announcement. That's when they should have announced something special for the early Sig holders, so there would be no confusion. It would have been a nice token of appreciation for those that had made a reservation earlier than the price announcement, and anyone that wants to get a Sig reservation now would understand what they're getting into, but still benefit from cutting in line. So basically you are saying that it was a poor decision for anyone to have gotten a Sig reservation in the past, since there is no benefit over getting one now? As an investment goes, it was a poor one. All risk, no reward.

 

[brianman]

I suppose you expect the people who line up outside Apple stores the evening before the new iPhone is available should get a free memory upgrade.

Nah, but they should probably order them some pizza and maybe offer access to some showers. It's just cheap and good PR move.

 

[smorgasbord]

Suppose you were starting your own company and your close friends and relatives lent you money.

There's a big difference between funding a company and putting down a deposit to hold your spot in line for a car.