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The thing I thought I’d like the most about my Model 3 is the thing I like the least

I know I’m going to catch some flak for this thread whatever I do, so I will try to head off at least some of it by saying up front that I still love my Model 3 overall, think it’s better than other EVs available at the same price point for a variety of reasons, and I have no intention of swapping it for something else. I’m sure I’ll get a flood of “well if you hate it so much why don’t you sell it!!” replies despite having said this 😆

But today I was ‘hypermiling’ down the motorway, sat behind a lorry that was doing a steady 56mph. I don’t normally try to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency like that, but my home charger is broken at the moment and rapid charging costs are ruinous, so needs must! As I did this, I became more and more annoyed that the car would frequently back off a few mph, let some distance build up to the lorry, then surge back up to my set speed (60mph), close right up to the lorry, then back off again, over and over. I find the adaptive cruise control in the Model 3 frequently does this. It doesn’t match the speed of the vehicle in front, it sort of matches the speed of the vehicle in front within a 5mph or so range, backing off and closing up again frequently. It is annoying.

I then thought back to my previous two cars that had adaptive cruise control, which were both VWs. In those cars, the speed always matched exactly to the vehicle in front. No backing off and surging forward, it was extremely precise. Why is the VW system so much better? Presumably because it uses a radar to detect the distance rather than relying on cameras.

It then occurred to me that when I bought the Tesla, I’d believed the hype about its ‘self-driving’ aids, believed it was the leader in this technology, and it was the thing I was most interested in trying out. However, I now think that in the real world, Tesla’s implementation of this is much worse than VW’s, and presumably other traditional manufacturers too. I tried the Enhanced Autopilot as well, but got my money back as, Autopark aside, it was hopeless. The thing I thought I would like most about the Model 3 is the thing I like the least.

Now, that’s ok overall. I’ve discovered over my time owning the car that there are many many things I love about this car, and overall those things make up for the crappy driver aid implementation. But I thought it worth posting my opinion in case belief that Tesla’s driver aids are more advanced than others is a reason anyone here is considering buying a Model 3. If you think that’s the car’s USP, and it is really important to you, then you will be disappointed. You’ll find loads of other amazing things about the car that you love, but you will be disappointed in the self-driving tech on UK roads in 2022.

I also know that data scientists are going to set me on fire for this thread, because I don’t understand the awesome potential of vision based systems, and that the AI models will learn and improve over time. That’s fine, but I bought a car in 2022 to work as a car in 2022. I didn’t buy the car for the joy of being part of a research project, or in the hope that in 5-10 years time it will surpass the abilities of cars that rely on radar. If you’re happy to accept lousy driver aid performance to be at the vanguard of a machine learning revolution then fine, but I just want features on my car to work now, like they did on my VWs.

But again, to repeat one last time - I prefer my Model 3 to my previous cars overall, and have no desire to get rid of it.

0x0-Model3_20.jpg

(Featured Image Courtesy of Tesla, Inc)
 
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I think it's apparent what's happening at that moment: the tarp on the truck cargo body is very reflective and there are trees and sky apparently visible in the reflection. That doesn't quite makes sense to the nnet. The recognition that there is a truck there vs a wtf becomes less certain and it brakes in the face of uncertainty as it can't predict "this is a truck moving forward in its own lane and isn't intersecting mine". Or possibly the texture and movement makes it look like it might be moving left to right. The vision nets don't work completely like human visual cortex (which we don't understand at higher levels), it builds hierarchical mathematical features of patches of pixels. Convolutional neural networks are known to be more sensitive to textures (contrast/shapes in small/medium areas) for discrimination than humans would be as humans have a better intuitive sense of "what is the full extent of the object or really 'what is the physical object' here'?"

This is a downside of trying to be "smart", i.e. looking at objects not in your own driving lane and trying to pre-emptively predict and react. A simpler system can be more reliable for the common case as it only looks straight ahead but then it loses in other circumstances.
“That doesn’t make sense to the nnet “

Means

“its not fit for purpose”
 
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It probably saw that mobile car crash in the inside lane :)

But seriously, could it have mistaken the flashing reflection on the top most car as indicators? Would make sense that the car transporter was the cause if you've passed hundreds of 'normal' trucks.
Is this an admission that phantom braking does actually happen? There is nothing on that video that would spook a human driver. It just goes to show how far autopilot has to go before it can match human ability.
 
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Except setting it to current speed and not speed limit means it will ignore even more speed limit changes than it does otherwise.
thats one thing i hate about autopilot... when its activated and average speed camera begins at 50mph, it doesnt bother processing the sign posts and lowering down. has to be downgraded manually to cruise control - whats the point of autopilot in that case
 
D

DM206433

Guest
I don't know if others find this, but when watching the visualisation, cars are rock steady in their lane, but trucks often dance around in and out of their lanes for a moment before settling. I expect this leads to the PB. The visual object recognition needs some work on larger objects.
Yes, I think you're pretty much bang on with that. Also, some days the road markings on the visualisation are absolutely locked in place, and then other days they can wobble about all over the place for no good reason (similar lighting conditions, etc).
 
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I don't know if others find this, but when watching the visualisation, cars are rock steady in their lane, but trucks often dance around in and out of their lanes for a moment before settling. I expect this leads to the PB. The visual object recognition needs some work on larger objects.
Th visualisation can be crazy. It doesn’t pick up every oncoming vehicle on single carriageway roads. When I’m stationary I can be treated to the sight of traffic lights, other cars, pedestrians, traffic cones and wheelie bins dancing all over the screen as if they’re possessed.
 
Th visualisation can be crazy. It doesn’t pick up every oncoming vehicle on single carriageway roads. When I’m stationary I can be treated to the sight of traffic lights, other cars, pedestrians, traffic cones and wheelie bins dancing all over the screen as if they’re possessed.
Do we need any better example of its hopelessness than that it’s not available if the sun is shining in one of the cameras?
 
You missed the most important feature in a great ADAS: OTA and the ability to improve over time. Most other manufacturers will sell you a 2022 ADAS and 5 years from now it will be dangerously out of date. Nobody does OTA as well as Tesla, particularly with driving control systems, as opposed to infotainment. The continuous improvements in my Model 3 Autopilot over the past 2-1/2 years is outstanding, too many to list all. One example, on a two lane road and it recognizes a cyclist on the shoulder, reduces speed and moves to the middle to give room, awesome. In Canada I have never seen that in any other ADAS, and it will save lives; more important to me than how fast it accelerates into a passing lane.. I see improvements, well beyond what is in update release notes, every month or two, and as FSD and TeslaVision improves so will capabilities in Autopilot.. I am a transportation engineer and Director of technology strategy at a multi billion dollar freight transportation company, and I believe Autopilot will keep my family safer than any other ADAS over the coming years.
As others commented, OTA may have beena Tesla thing years back, but now it's just standard. Main difference might be that Tesla makes a big thing out of it, with small silly updates like a line that visually shows regeneration-acceleration, while they try to ignore the issues at hand. When my VW got upgrades it just kind of happened, without any fuss.
 
Is that a change in EU compared to US? In my new US model there are two modes, one for speed limit detection +/- offset and set by user. The first one is confused frequently so I switched to set by user like every other car. Is that not available on your software?

Well I can fiddle all I like with the settings, but it wont go more tham 10 kmh above what the car thinks is the speed limit. I have spots on the highway (130 kmh limit) where "it" is convinced theres a 30 kmh speed limit, and reduces speed accordingly, thats some dangerous stuff there, and no other systems I have tried have such "forced" max speed, above what the car think is the speed limit. Daily frustrating & dangerous situations occur!
 
Is this an admission that phantom braking does actually happen? There is nothing on that video that would spook a human driver. It just goes to show how far autopilot has to go before it can match human ability.
I get phantom breaking daily, let me know if you want video's of it. On a trip between DK and PL (bi-weekly) I get those 3-4-5-6 times and they're all equally nervewrecking!
 
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Undecided_2

Member
Supporting Member
Jan 21, 2022
618
447
Helensburgh
Auto parking is effectively useless unless you are testing it in an out-of-the-way car park with no-one around and even then it occasionally just stops halfway through and sits there indefinitely for no reason.
I find the parallel parking pretty quick and accurate if no one is around - it’s still quicker for us to park and get it closer to the curb (I think it leaves more gap between the cub due to being designed for US roads not EMEA.

I don’t bother with using in other parking scenarios as it gets confused and usually gives up and it’s quicker for me to park.
 

init6

Active Member
Oct 16, 2020
2,263
1,626
Scotland
Is this an admission that phantom braking does actually happen? There is nothing on that video that would spook a human driver. It just goes to show how far autopilot has to go before it can match human ability.
When did I ever say phantom braking wasn't a thing? Pretty sure if you search my posts I mention at least one of my incidents with phantom braking.
 
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Undecided_2

Member
Supporting Member
Jan 21, 2022
618
447
Helensburgh
Perhaps because you actually enjoy driving? I love throwing my M3P around country roads. The thought of autonomous driving horrifies me, except perhaps on long, boring motorway journeys. Yes, the safety element can’t be ignored but it would be at the cost of sheer driving pleasure.
I enjoy driving when off of motorways. Motorways = boring stretches of Moroni us road works/variable limits - and thats where I want AP to work well.

I’ve given up using AP/NOA as it spoils the journey. It would have been great to have it as a subscription option. Try properly before buying.
 
I may not be understanding this correctly, but I will share my experience, as it seems to be different from yours.

I have a Model 3 LR, purchased new in October 2021.
Bought it with FSD, in hopes that one day I would have access to it, after having seen all the videos I considered to be amazing from FSD in the USA.

Now, I drive "long" distances (300km one way) quite frequently, and having the opportunity to have the car itself take care of the aiming inside the lines, managing speeds, and so on, I do it every single time I drive.

I drive with a 3-car distance setting, and I am unable to relate to what you are saying. It seems, to me obviously I could be wrong, that it matches the speed of the cars in front just fine. I did see a reply of someone saying that it takes a while for it to pick up speed again after a lane change, and I can agree with that, but when it comes to matching the speed of traffic, I have absolutely no complaints.

Ever since I purchased my car however, I have been made aware that there are some changes between where the car was manufactured. Perhaps it has something to do with that?

Anyway, I hope you can still enjoy driving your vehicle!
 
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