The thing I thought I’d like the most about my Model 3 is the thing I like the least

I know I’m going to catch some flak for this thread whatever I do, so I will try to head off at least some of it by saying up front that I still love my Model 3 overall, think it’s better than other EVs available at the same price point for a variety of reasons, and I have no intention of swapping it for something else. I’m sure I’ll get a flood of “well if you hate it so much why don’t you sell it!!” replies despite having said this

But today I was ‘hypermiling’ down the motorway, sat behind a lorry that was doing a steady 56mph. I don’t normally try to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency like that, but my home charger is broken at the moment and rapid charging costs are ruinous, so needs must! As I did this, I became more and more annoyed that the car would frequently back off a few mph, let some distance build up to the lorry, then surge back up to my set speed (60mph), close right up to the lorry, then back off again, over and over. I find the adaptive cruise control in the Model 3 frequently does this. It doesn’t match the speed of the vehicle in front, it sort of matches the speed of the vehicle in front within a 5mph or so range, backing off and closing up again frequently. It is annoying.

I then thought back to my previous two cars that had adaptive cruise control, which were both VWs. In those cars, the speed always matched exactly to the vehicle in front. No backing off and surging forward, it was extremely precise. Why is the VW system so much better? Presumably because it uses a radar to detect the distance rather than relying on cameras.

It then occurred to me that when I bought the Tesla, I’d believed the hype about its ‘self-driving’ aids, believed it was the leader in this technology, and it was the thing I was most interested in trying out. However, I now think that in the real world, Tesla’s implementation of this is much worse than VW’s, and presumably other traditional manufacturers too. I tried the Enhanced Autopilot as well, but got my money back as, Autopark aside, it was hopeless. The thing I thought I would like most about the Model 3 is the thing I like the least.

Now, that’s ok overall. I’ve discovered over my time owning the car that there are many many things I love about this car, and overall those things make up for the crappy driver aid implementation. But I thought it worth posting my opinion in case belief that Tesla’s driver aids are more advanced than others is a reason anyone here is considering buying a Model 3. If you think that’s the car’s USP, and it is really important to you, then you will be disappointed. You’ll find loads of other amazing things about the car that you love, but you will be disappointed in the self-driving tech on UK roads in 2022.

I also know that data scientists are going to set me on fire for this thread, because I don’t understand the awesome potential of vision based systems, and that the AI models will learn and improve over time. That’s fine, but I bought a car in 2022 to work as a car in 2022. I didn’t buy the car for the joy of being part of a research project, or in the hope that in 5-10 years time it will surpass the abilities of cars that rely on radar. If you’re happy to accept lousy driver aid performance to be at the vanguard of a machine learning revolution then fine, but I just want features on my car to work now, like they did on my VWs.

But again, to repeat one last time - I prefer my Model 3 to my previous cars overall, and have no desire to get rid of it.

(Featured Image Courtesy of Tesla, Inc)

 

[Type2]

I have the feeling that although - obviously - the program is switched to RH driving many other things are still set up for the US which may be part of the problems.

The NHTSA are investigating a rising number of complaints about phantom braking in the States, and in fact Tesla are required to respond by today. It will be interesting to see if all these instances of phantom braking are found to be caused by driver error.

 

[yessuz]

yes. I already said this couple of times.

one of the most annoying items is - you have to re-enable the AP every time you change lanes. this is sooo stupid and so annoying... no one ever has this stupid thing, only Tesla

not even talking about this stupid phantom breaking, which really dangerous

 

[GRiLLA]

yes. I already said this couple of times.

one of the most annoying items is - you have to re-enable the AP every time you change lanes. this is sooo stupid and so annoying... no one ever has this stupid thing, only Tesla

not even talking about this stupid phantom breaking, which really dangerous

You could buy EAP or FSD and then not have this, it's generally not a free option on other makes.

 

[Zilla91]

The funny thing about Tesla is that a lot of people get drawn in by the technology but they quickly realise it’s actually not any good.

The thing they do really well is the actual driving experience but the “purists” who would appreciate that will most likely disregard it because it’s electric.

Luckily I actually really like driving and the idea of automation or self driving is anathema to me.

You could buy EAP or FSD and then not have this, it's generally not a free option on other makes.

You’re correct but on other makes it doesn’t cost £3400 - £6800. Maybe if it was a reasonable £1500 like on other makes then more people would take it up

 

[Type2]

You’re correct but on other makes it doesn’t cost £3400 - £6800. Maybe if it was a reasonable £1500 like on other makes then more people would take it up

And on other makes the software isn’t in permanent beta. £6800 for beta software? But at least Tesla then has an excuse when it doesn’t work.

 

[Hurricane]

Tesla have entered a multi $billion contract with Samsung for them to supply 5 megapixel cameras for self driving. Apparently the current cameras are only about 1.2 megapixel. Are we going to see an admission from Tesla that the current hardware isn’t up to the job? It wouldn’t be the first time.

And Tesla have apparently filed with the FCC to use a new higher res radar in its vehicles, only months after going vision only.

 

[Pants]

No, but aren't you even slightly interested in what makes their experience different from other people?

Yes I’m interested, but I’m in no way qualified to offer an explanation. However my own experiences and the experiences of many others here and in other countries convince me 100% it isn’t due to the driver.

When I’m driving at 70mph in the outside lane of the motorway using NOA the car is driving itself and making the decisions. I have no input apart from keeping a bit of tension on the steering wheel. Then the car initiates a full on emergency brake for no reason I can see. I honestly don’t know how I haven’t been rear ended, and I’ve certainly had flashing lights, horns and rude gestures from the furious drivers behind. Whatever the car thinks it’s seen and I’ve obviously missed I don’t think the response is appropriate or proportional. In fact I think it’s downright dangerous.

 

[Wol747]

Tesla have entered a multi $billion contract with Samsung for them to supply 5 megapixel cameras for self driving. Apparently the current cameras are only about 1.2 megapixel. Are we going to see an admission from Tesla that the current hardware isn’t up to the job? It wouldn’t be the first time.

And Tesla have apparently filed with the FCC to use a new higher res radar in its vehicles, only months after going vision only.

Sooner or later we are going to run out CPU power, and processing that sort of increase in camera output ain’t going to help.

 

[KennethS]

Yes I’m interested, but I’m in no way qualified to offer an explanation. However my own experiences and the experiences of many others here and in other countries convince me 100% it isn’t due to the driver.

When I’m driving at 70mph in the outside lane of the motorway using NOA the car is driving itself and making the decisions. I have no input apart from keeping a bit of tension on the steering wheel. Then the car initiates a full on emergency brake for no reason I can see. I honestly don’t know how I haven’t been rear ended, and I’ve certainly had flashing lights, horns and rude gestures from the furious drivers behind. Whatever the car thinks it’s seen and I’ve obviously missed I don’t think the response is appropriate or proportional. In fact I think it’s downright dangerous.

Do you have any dash cam footage of these full on emergency braking events? That sounds truly terrifying! It is a miracle that we don't hear stories of rear end collisions more frequently.

 

[Type2]

Sooner or later we are going to run out CPU power, and processing that sort of increase in camera output ain’t going to help.

I think the inadequate processing power has already been mentioned but I can’t find the article I read right now. There’s already been one major upgrade to the CPU in the not too distant past. Using cameras with more than four times the resolution is going to require significantly more processing power.

 

[yessuz]

Maybe once, a while back. I never give the inside lane any thought when moving from 3 to 2.

I get phantom breaking almost every long drive (more than 100 miles per drive). most of cases - when lorry is in the next lane.

 

[AnthonyLR]

Tesla have entered a multi $billion contract with Samsung for them to supply 5 megapixel cameras for self driving. Apparently the current cameras are only about 1.2 megapixel. Are we going to see an admission from Tesla that the current hardware isn’t up to the job? It wouldn’t be the first time.

And Tesla have apparently filed with the FCC to use a new higher res radar in its vehicles, only months after going vision only.

The hi-res radar is intriguing. But it is not yet clear it is for FSD (though a reasonable assumption.)

Regarding better cameras and HW4 FSD Computer, that's just the nature of tech. Tesla will always be fitting the very best available tech to their cars. It may be years before FSD is updated to benefit properly from the higher resolution cameras but Tesla is seeding this now. Makes sense.

If, say, my current state of the art HW3 Tesla is TEN times safer than a human, obviously I'm going to use FSD. If in a few years there is a better FSD hardware version that is, say, 100 times safer then I would want to use that, but I am not going to stop using 10X safer FSD and drive manually. Why would I?

 

[Type2]

The hi-res radar is intriguing. But it is not yet clear it is for FSD (though a reasonable assumption.)

Regarding better cameras and HW4 FSD Computer, that's just the nature of tech. Tesla will always be fitting the very best available tech to their cars. It may be years before FSD is updated to benefit properly from the higher resolution cameras but Tesla is seeding this now. Makes sense.

If, say, my current state of the art HW3 Tesla is TEN times safer than a human, obviously I'm going to use FSD. If in a few years there is a better FSD hardware version that is, say, 100 times safer then I would want to use that, but I am not going to stop using 10X safer FSD and drive manually. Why would I?

That’s very true, but starting with the introduction of its Autopilot 2.0 suite of sensors in 2016, Tesla started selling all of its cars with the promise that they have all the hardware necessary to achieve full self-driving capability with future software updates. How wrong they were.

The only accurate thing the Musk has said about FSD is that it’s much harder to achieve than he expected.

 

[Hurricane]

If, say, my current state of the art HW3 Tesla is TEN times safer than a human, obviously I'm going to use FSD. If in a few years there is a better FSD hardware version that is, say, 100 times safer then I would want to use that, but I am not going to stop using 10X safer FSD and drive manually. Why would I?

Perhaps because you actually enjoy driving? I love throwing my M3P around country roads. The thought of autonomous driving horrifies me, except perhaps on long, boring motorway journeys. Yes, the safety element can’t be ignored but it would be at the cost of sheer driving pleasure.

 

[yessuz]

You could buy EAP or FSD and then not have this, it's generally not a free option on other makes.

Or no? I do not want it to try to change the lanes. I am perfectly fine to make it myself.
all, literally all other manufacturers, who what the same implementations of "autopilot", which in real life is nothing other than TACC + active lane assistant, has it implemented right way. and by the right way, I mean that if you do have this feature (and most new cars at price of 35k + do have it by default now, is it bmw, kia or any other) then you:

• can enable "AP" silently - just push the freaking button and there is no "ding dong" every time you press the button. Why the hell I need that ding dong?! can you tell at least one reasonable expectation? Why there is no "make it mute" option? Am I so retarded that I need reminder that I enabled something what I did half a second ago?
• you do not even have to re-enable once you change the lane. and why would you have to?! If I have enabled it once already, why the hell car thinks that once I change the lane I do not want to have it re-enabled?
• You have touch sensitive steering wheel (i.e. bmw) which means I do not need to apply the pressure all the time - it just recognizes that I am touching steering wheel.
• Phantom breaking - I never had a SINGLE occurrence like this in 2 years in 69 reg bmw. and I have it every week in tesla. and absolutely all instances of PB happens when I do have a lorry in the next lane at 10-11 o'clock. it's bloody dangerous to slam brakes out of the blue, just because AP think *sugar* happen, but they don't, when you travel 70 MPH on a busy motorway.

It's not too hard to make it right. tesla just does not want to.

we all know that FSD is not working and it will not work in Europe.
EAP is *sugar* as well as the lane change implementation is god awful for the above reasons. My M3 is with standard AP. I hade a temporary one, with EAP, when my car was at SC for 1 week. It was nonsense. I could not have it working properly, the "confirmation" of lane change with steering wheel is stupid and the flashing bit and option to cancel that lane change "suggestion" (and only that particular one) is annoying.

all in all, after having Tesla's AP and comparing it to others, I find it worse that "normal" manufacturers implementations. it is OK compared to the fact that you can have car without it at all, so in this case, yeah, it's better to have AP rather not to have it at all, I guess. but implementation wise Tesla's system is sh!t.

Other things, like the auto wipers, which are "patchy" at best and few other bits others mentioned, is the same gripe.

 

[Wol747]

The hi-res radar is intriguing. But it is not yet clear it is for FSD (though a reasonable assumption.)

Regarding better cameras and HW4 FSD Computer, that's just the nature of tech. Tesla will always be fitting the very best available tech to their cars. It may be years before FSD is updated to benefit properly from the higher resolution cameras but Tesla is seeding this now. Makes sense.

If, say, my current state of the art HW3 Tesla is TEN times safer than a human, obviously I'm going to use FSD. If in a few years there is a better FSD hardware version that is, say, 100 times safer then I would want to use that, but I am not going to stop using 10X safer FSD and drive manually. Why would I?

Please don’t make the common mistake of equating the safety of “autopilot plus driver” with “autopilot”.
they are two entirely different animals, although Tesla, without promoting it, would like everyone to do so.

 

[Rirawin]

It is interesting how some users experience Phantom Braking more than others. Do we believe perhaps that hardware, i.e. cameras on some cars are better calibrated than others? For example, the lens or positioning could be a degree or two out and could cause an issue with the perspective it has and the data it collects. Especially seeing as there shouldn't be any difference between software if the sample group are all on the same software version and everything else equal.

I've done quite a bit of driving on the M4, M5 and M25 and in torrential rain (visibility was no further than 1m ahead) where only TACC was available. During these times when using NoA (or TACC during the adverse weather conditions) to pass or overtake using auto lane change cars or lorries (including soft sided ones) in the lanes adjacent to me I have fortunately never had it happen. The one time Phantom Braking did happen was on a clear sky day where I was approaching up ahead a 4 meter wide horizontal strip of freshly laid tarmac that went across the three lanes and hadn't had the lines painted on, at that instance it suddenly braked from 70 down to 40 without warning and it was a pretty scary experience.

Despite that from reading peoples experiences here I'm still very cautious when passing soft sided lorries by hovering my foot over the accelerator, and something I've done since owning the car.

 

[yessuz]

It is interesting how some users experience Phantom Braking more than others. Do we believe perhaps that hardware, i.e. cameras on some cars are better calibrated than others? For example, the lens or positioning could be a degree or two out and could cause an issue with the perspective it has and the data it collects. Especially seeing as there shouldn't be any difference between software if the sample group are all on the same software version and everything else equal.

I've done quite a bit of driving on the M4, M5 and M25 and in torrential rain (visibility was no further than 1m ahead) where only TACC was available. During these times when using NoA (or TACC during the adverse weather conditions) to pass or overtake using auto lane change cars or lorries (including soft sided ones) in the lanes adjacent to me I have fortunately never had it happen. The one time Phantom Braking did happen was on a clear sky day where I was approaching up ahead a 4 meter wide horizontal strip of freshly laid tarmac that went across the three lanes and hadn't had the lines painted on, at that instance it suddenly braked from 70 down to 40 without warning and it was a pretty scary experience.

Funnily enough from reading peoples experiences here I've also been cautious by hovering my foot over the accelerator when passing soft sided lorries since owning the car.

ah, yes, soft sided lorries is where 90% of PBs happen to me...

 

[GRiLLA]

Or no? I do not want it to try to change the lanes. I am perfectly fine to make it myself.
all, literally all other manufacturers, who what the same implementations of "autopilot", which in real life is nothing other than TACC + active lane assistant, has it implemented right way. and by the right way, I mean that if you do have this feature (and most new cars at price of 35k + do have it by default now, is it bmw, kia or any other) then you:

• can enable "AP" silently - just push the freaking button and there is no "ding dong" every time you press the button. Why the hell I need that ding dong?! can you tell at least one reasonable expectation? Why there is no "make it mute" option? Am I so retarded that I need reminder that I enabled something what I did half a second ago?
• you do not even have to re-enable once you change the lane. and why would you have to?! If I have enabled it once already, why the hell car thinks that once I change the lane I do not want to have it re-enabled?
• You have touch sensitive steering wheel (i.e. bmw) which means I do not need to apply the pressure all the time - it just recognizes that I am touching steering wheel.
• Phantom breaking - I never had a SINGLE occurrence like this in 2 years in 69 reg bmw. and I have it every week in tesla. and absolutely all instances of PB happens when I do have a lorry in the next lane at 10-11 o'clock. it's bloody dangerous to slam brakes out of the blue, just because AP think *sugar* happen, but they don't, when you travel 70 MPH on a busy motorway.

It's not too hard to make it right. tesla just does not want to.

we all know that FSD is not working and it will not work in Europe.
EAP is *sugar* as well as the lane change implementation is god awful for the above reasons. My M3 is with standard AP. I hade a temporary one, with EAP, when my car was at SC for 1 week. It was nonsense. I could not have it working properly, the "confirmation" of lane change with steering wheel is stupid and the flashing bit and option to cancel that lane change "suggestion" (and only that particular one) is annoying.

all in all, after having Tesla's AP and comparing it to others, I find it worse that "normal" manufacturers implementations. it is OK compared to the fact that you can have car without it at all, so in this case, yeah, it's better to have AP rather not to have it at all, I guess. but implementation wise Tesla's system is sh!t.

Other things, like the auto wipers, which are "patchy" at best and few other bits others mentioned, is the same gripe.

So you are complaining about missing features that are only missing because you refuse to purchase them, with other cars you either need to buy a certain grade of car or add as an accessory. e.g. a base 3 series BMW doesn't include lane keeping, the base Kia eNiro 2 doesn't have it.

So your definition is different to that from others in this thread, they were talking about moving from Lane 3 to 2 while there is lorry in Lane 1, yours is just driving past a lorry without lane change, and this is happening 'weekly'.

I am considering starting a really boring YouTube channel where I drive along the Motorway using all the FSD features and nothing at all untoward happens. Lane change is a breeze, holding the steering wheel is easy.

 

[alangold]

Other cars have better driver assistance features than AP on M ways?

Can you post a link?

AP on the Mway has been damn good in my experience for the last 12 months+. I use it pretty much the time on Mway runs, lane changes even in traffic is pretty smooth/good these days, I can barely remeber the last time AP aborted a lane change.

My main concern is all the talk of phantom braking - has that been an issue ? - I don’t use cruise control now but wanted to try autopilot when my M3 arrives maybe November