The thing I thought I’d like the most about my Model 3 is the thing I like the least

I know I’m going to catch some flak for this thread whatever I do, so I will try to head off at least some of it by saying up front that I still love my Model 3 overall, think it’s better than other EVs available at the same price point for a variety of reasons, and I have no intention of swapping it for something else. I’m sure I’ll get a flood of “well if you hate it so much why don’t you sell it!!” replies despite having said this

But today I was ‘hypermiling’ down the motorway, sat behind a lorry that was doing a steady 56mph. I don’t normally try to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency like that, but my home charger is broken at the moment and rapid charging costs are ruinous, so needs must! As I did this, I became more and more annoyed that the car would frequently back off a few mph, let some distance build up to the lorry, then surge back up to my set speed (60mph), close right up to the lorry, then back off again, over and over. I find the adaptive cruise control in the Model 3 frequently does this. It doesn’t match the speed of the vehicle in front, it sort of matches the speed of the vehicle in front within a 5mph or so range, backing off and closing up again frequently. It is annoying.

I then thought back to my previous two cars that had adaptive cruise control, which were both VWs. In those cars, the speed always matched exactly to the vehicle in front. No backing off and surging forward, it was extremely precise. Why is the VW system so much better? Presumably because it uses a radar to detect the distance rather than relying on cameras.

It then occurred to me that when I bought the Tesla, I’d believed the hype about its ‘self-driving’ aids, believed it was the leader in this technology, and it was the thing I was most interested in trying out. However, I now think that in the real world, Tesla’s implementation of this is much worse than VW’s, and presumably other traditional manufacturers too. I tried the Enhanced Autopilot as well, but got my money back as, Autopark aside, it was hopeless. The thing I thought I would like most about the Model 3 is the thing I like the least.

Now, that’s ok overall. I’ve discovered over my time owning the car that there are many many things I love about this car, and overall those things make up for the crappy driver aid implementation. But I thought it worth posting my opinion in case belief that Tesla’s driver aids are more advanced than others is a reason anyone here is considering buying a Model 3. If you think that’s the car’s USP, and it is really important to you, then you will be disappointed. You’ll find loads of other amazing things about the car that you love, but you will be disappointed in the self-driving tech on UK roads in 2022.

I also know that data scientists are going to set me on fire for this thread, because I don’t understand the awesome potential of vision based systems, and that the AI models will learn and improve over time. That’s fine, but I bought a car in 2022 to work as a car in 2022. I didn’t buy the car for the joy of being part of a research project, or in the hope that in 5-10 years time it will surpass the abilities of cars that rely on radar. If you’re happy to accept lousy driver aid performance to be at the vanguard of a machine learning revolution then fine, but I just want features on my car to work now, like they did on my VWs.

But again, to repeat one last time - I prefer my Model 3 to my previous cars overall, and have no desire to get rid of it.

(Featured Image Courtesy of Tesla, Inc)

 

[glazer]

I wonder what excuses the apologists with come up with after watching that

I notice that your display does not show the simulated vehicles. Could there be a software error

oh, and the vids like

- is nothing.

Imagine you go 70, truck is, on the same direction but another lane, you approch and it slams brakes that your seat belt is locked, straight to 40 mph.

I notice that on your display we do not see the simulations of other vehicles showing. Suggests that the car is not recording other vehicles (until very close?). Is your car only using vision or does it have radar as well?

 

[Zilla91]

Is this your experience using TACC on a two way road in the UK then? Brakes for every truck going the other way?

I’ve only used it on the motorway so in my case I’ve only had it occur on the motorway. The M1 and the A1(M).

Not entirely sure why this matters, it shouldn’t be doing this even if I was using it on a two way road. If you can’t use it in that scenario how is “full self driving” ever going to be achieved?

 

[GRiLLA]

what difference it makes, if it brakes on every approaching truck or only once in a day, once in a week, once in a young moon, on approaching truck, sitting in your lane on motorway, changing lanes or whatever? Symptoms are exactly like in this video. Car just slams on the brakes for no apparent reason. this simply should not be happening.

there is a reason why authorities are investigating this.

but you can live in denial.

I guess that's a no then.

I understand, you have no interest in determining the cause of the issues you are experiencing despite other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms, fair enough. Why do you keep posting about it?

 

[candida]

I’ve only used it on the motorway so in my case I’ve only had it occur on the motorway. The M1 and the A1(M).

Me too. Only motorway, only TACC because AP is useless. Every time lane 3>2 with lorries in 1, and as I've said, regular bridge fright.

 

[yessuz]

I notice that your display does not show the simulated vehicles. Could there be a software error

well it does not happen with "non-trucks". i mean there's *sugar* loads of videos of phantom breaking. including like this one:

I notice that on your display we do not see the simulations of other vehicles showing. Suggests that the car is not recording other vehicles (until very close?). Is your car only using vision or does it have radar as well?

ummm, should I explicitly mention that this is not my video, not my car, not my display?!

 

[yessuz]

I guess that's a no then.

I understand, you have no interest in determining the cause of the issues you are experiencing despite other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms, fair enough. Why do you keep posting about it?

excuse me?! "despite other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms," you are joking?! this whole tread and countless other treads in this forum would not be here if "other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms",.

 

[candida]

excuse me?! "despite other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms," you are joking?! this whole tread and countless other treads in this forum would not be here if "other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms",.

Even the Sainted Bjorn is pissed off about it. Try from 16m onwards

 

[Mrklaw]

yes.. but look closely: he is not using AP! He's using just a TACC in this case...

same. I consider them equally good/bad. Just driving down my street there is a pinch point where I have to stay left, and there are parked cars just ahead. Every day it beeps to warn me I'm going to crash - I'm not, but it reacts sooner than I would steer around them.

 

[GRiLLA]

excuse me?! "despite other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms," you are joking?! this whole tread and countless other treads in this forum would not be here if "other Tesla drivers not experiencing the same symptoms",.

I am an 'other driver' and there are others in this thread already that agree we aren't having issues that are being described.

Still, not of interest to you, enjoy your day.

 

[yessuz]

same. I consider them equally good/bad. Just driving down my street there is a pinch point where I have to stay left, and there are parked cars just ahead. Every day it beeps to warn me I'm going to crash - I'm not, but it reacts sooner than I would steer around them.

ah, I got the same at my estate..

 

[yessuz]

Even the Sainted Bjorn is pissed off about it. Try from 16m onwards

According grilla - you are wrong and this never happens.

 

[init6]

According grilla - you are wrong and this never happens.

You're misunderstanding what @GRiLLA is saying. He says there are other people not having the issues that you are having. Not that it never occurs. This is the real problem with Teslas - the inconsistency with issues.

 

[AutomaticMan]

My main concern is all the talk of phantom braking - has that been an issue ? - I don’t use cruise control now but wanted to try autopilot when my M3 arrives maybe November

To be honest, in my experience (not talking for the few lucky ones on this thread who never experience phantom braking) once you get a Tesla you use the driver assistance features but you keep your foot over the throttle and develop a good reaction time for over-riding it. It is rare that mine fully emergency brakes now because as soon as my bum detects the initial deceleration through the seat I instinctively know what’s happening now and immediately put my foot down on the throttle. If I’m going on a long journey this will happen 2 or 3 times in the trip probably.

For balance, my old VW ID.3 had a slight phantom braking issue too. This was that the cruise control automatically sets itself based on the speed sign recognition and sat nav data. There was some sort of bug where when you drove past motorway exits the car thought you were on the exit and would change the cruise control set speed. Though, the braking was nowhere near as harsh as the Tesla so it didn’t scare me so much, and it happened far less frequently. Maybe once every few long journeys.

 

[AutomaticMan]

You're misunderstanding what @GRiLLA is saying. He says there are other people not having the issues that you are having. Not that it never occurs. This is the real problem with Teslas - the inconsistency with issues.

Not sure why it matters though. What’s the difference to owners between ‘phantom braking happens to all owners’ versus ‘phantom braking happens to most owners’? Assuming this isn’t due to driving style differences between owners,* it’s all the same to owners unless they happen to be one of the lucky ones. I can see how the distinction might be important to a Tesla engineer if they were reading this thread trying to diagnose the root cause, but from an owner’s perspective ‘phantom braking happens to most owners’ is still a big problem they need to fix.

*And even if it is due to driving style - which I doubt - if the way that the majority of humans drive triggers an unsafe action in the car, then that’s on Tesla to fix. Imagine getting safety approval for a car if you said “it’s totally safe for the best 20% of drivers in the world… the other 80% though… well, let’s hope they have recently updated their wills…”

 

[roadcred]

Tesla efficiency great! Better than other EVs except Kia who can match it. Driving aids poor. Worse I guess than any other ICE German built or Volvo on the market at £50k+!
Tesla Supercharger system and coverage makes all other EVs unpurchasable!

 

[Hurricane]

Tesla efficiency great! Better than other EVs except Kia who can match it. Driving aids poor. Worse I guess than any other ICE German built or Volvo on the market at £50k+!
Tesla Supercharger system and coverage makes all other EVs unpurchasable!

I agree with the first part of your post but certainly not with the last sentence. Tesla have already opened parts of the SuC networks to other makes and this may expand. In some places there are actually better alternatives to the SuC network, such as IONITY at Gretna Green.

Several of my friends and colleagues love their non Tesla EVs. They experience better build quality, much better comfort and refinement, and more reliable driving aids. I don’t remember any of them recounting any particular problems with public charging.

Bloomberg predict that VW will overtake Tesla in terms of sales volume in two years time. Clearly a lot of people think other EVs are eminently purchasable. In fact I’m one of them - my next car won’t be a Tesla.

 

[_Redshift_]

@AutomaticMan, I’m completely with you. I had eight happy years in an oldish 911 then got a Golf R when the kids grew and the absolute revelation was not that the Golf was as fast as a 90s sports car but the radar cruise: amazing - biggest advance since I got a licence in the late 80s. And I thought the M3 with its McLaren performance (I have a P) would bring this all together in perfection - but I have to say the TACC implementation is just awful. It accelerates too hard, it doesn’t judge gaps, and I’ve been on radar too (if Sept 2020 was still running radar TACC). At the risk of reopening perennial wounds, it’s Teslas obsession with reinventing the (steering) wheel - wipers working on cameras, yokes, algorithms that can’t tell a shadow from a hazard…
I’m keeping it, because I think electricity is a compelling way to drive a car - for instant torque more than economy, and none of the bagginess of the now ubiquitous automatic and dual clutch gearboxes. But I absolutely hate it quite a lot of the time.
It’s like the partner in your 20s that does one thing really well but is otherwise hateful: do you see yourself settling down with them?

Better alternatives are close. Sell your shares!

That was on point and funny.

 

[AutomaticMan]

I agree with the first part of your post but certainly not with the last sentence. Tesla have already opened parts of the SuC networks to other makes and this may expand. In some places there are actually better alternatives to the SuC network, such as IONITY at Gretna Green.

Several of my friends and colleagues love their non Tesla EVs. They experience better build quality, much better comfort and refinement, and more reliable driving aids. I don’t remember any of them recounting any particular problems with public charging.

Bloomberg predict that VW will overtake Tesla in terms of sales volume in two years time. Clearly a lot of people think other EVs are eminently purchasable. In fact I’m one of them - my next car won’t be a Tesla.

I've had non-Tesla EVs (VW e-Golf and ID.3) and now a Tesla since Feb, so I've seen both sides of the charging network. To be honest, Tesla is still miles ahead of the game on this in my experience.

I mentioned elsewhere in the thread that my home charger is broken at the moment, which means over the last month or so I have reacquainted myself with what non-Tesla drivers have to experience when it comes to charging. When my home charger is working, I know that wherever I go within the range of the car, I'll pass a number of Superchargers on the way. I've never had to wait for an available charger, and I drove this thing right the way down to Southern Italy and back recently!

However, while this is great when my home charger works, there is no Tesla Supercharger actually in my town or neighbouring towns, so I've had to rely on other networks for charging for my local driving, and it's awful. I've literally seen EV drivers shouting at each other over whose turn it is to use the next available one of the two Gridserve chargers at Gloucester Services; I've experienced broken single-charger Osprey sites; had to wait what felt like a lifetime for an BMW driver who was determined to charge to exactly 100% at a BP Pulse charger (the other BP Pulse charger at the location was broken); even Instavolt - which was my go to reliable network in my pre-Tesla days - let me down with a broken charger. It's awful.

So right now, Tesla ownership is still a world away from owning other EVs in the UK. In fact, I think even in just the few months since I last owned a non-Tesla EV, it has got much worse. Perhaps there are slightly more chargers now than then, but the numbers of EVs on the road seems to be growing far faster than the installation of new chargers. I experienced broken charger annoyances plenty of times back when I last owned a non-Tesla EV, but the numbers of cars queuing for the chargers has gone through the roof now compared to then. Even on journeys where I can use Superchargers, I always glance over at the other chargers at the location if there are any and am amazed how many queuing EVs are always waiting for them nowadays.

But like you, I worry about what Tesla opening up their network to other EVs will do. If the same queues form at Tesla Superchargers (keeping in mind that non-Teslas ofter have to park in such a way that they block two stalls because of where their charge ports are), then that's a huge selling point for Tesla gone. At that point, the main thing keeping me in a Tesla will be the performance, handling and efficiency. If Tesla does lose the Supercharger advantage, and another manufacturer brings out a car that comes close to the Model 3's performance and efficiency for the same price, I would probably switch at that point - particularly because it'll probably have much better driver aids.

 

[Electroman]

I know I’m going to catch some flak for this thread whatever I do, so I will try to head off at least some of it by saying up front that I still love my Model 3 overall, think it’s better than other EVs available at the same price point for a variety of reasons, and I have no intention of swapping it for something else. I’m sure I’ll get a flood of “well if you hate it so much why don’t you sell it!!” replies despite having said this

But today I was ‘hypermiling’ down the motorway, sat behind a lorry that was doing a steady 56mph. I don’t normally try to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency like that, but my home charger is broken at the moment and rapid charging costs are ruinous, so needs must! As I did this, I became more and more annoyed that the car would frequently back off a few mph, let some distance build up to the lorry, then surge back up to my set speed (60mph), close right up to the lorry, then back off again, over and over. I find the adaptive cruise control in the Model 3 frequently does this. It doesn’t match the speed of the vehicle in front, it sort of matches the speed of the vehicle in front within a 5mph or so range, backing off and closing up again frequently. It is annoying.

I then thought back to my previous two cars that had adaptive cruise control, which were both VWs. In those cars, the speed always matched exactly to the vehicle in front. No backing off and surging forward, it was extremely precise. Why is the VW system so much better? Presumably because it uses a radar to detect the distance rather than relying on cameras.

It then occurred to me that when I bought the Tesla, I’d believed the hype about its ‘self-driving’ aids, believed it was the leader in this technology, and it was the thing I was most interested in trying out. However, I now think that in the real world, Tesla’s implementation of this is much worse than VW’s, and presumably other traditional manufacturers too. I tried the Enhanced Autopilot as well, but got my money back as, Autopark aside, it was hopeless. The thing I thought I would like most about the Model 3 is the thing I like the least.

Now, that’s ok overall. I’ve discovered over my time owning the car that there are many many things I love about this car, and overall those things make up for the crappy driver aid implementation. But I thought it worth posting my opinion in case belief that Tesla’s driver aids are more advanced than others is a reason anyone here is considering buying a Model 3. If you think that’s the car’s USP, and it is really important to you, then you will be disappointed. You’ll find loads of other amazing things about the car that you love, but you will be disappointed in the self-driving tech on UK roads in 2022.

I also know that data scientists are going to set me on fire for this thread, because I don’t understand the awesome potential of vision based systems, and that the AI models will learn and improve over time. That’s fine, but I bought a car in 2022 to work as a car in 2022. I didn’t buy the car for the joy of being part of a research project, or in the hope that in 5-10 years time it will surpass the abilities of cars that rely on radar. If you’re happy to accept lousy driver aid performance to be at the vanguard of a machine learning revolution then fine, but I just want features on my car to work now, like they did on my VWs.

But again, to repeat one last time - I prefer my Model 3 to my previous cars overall, and have no desire to get rid of it.

I have seen this happen (or a variation of this) in my MY - slowing down by a few miles (from 65 to 62 mph) just a few hundred feet before approaching an exit, and accelerating to the set speed the moment it crosses the exit and before the merge ahead. And this happens in a few empty freeways with no vehicles in front of me. Inexplicable. And this with standard AP and no FSD.

 

[candida]

I've had non-Tesla EVs (VW e-Golf and ID.3) and now a Tesla since Feb, so I've seen both sides of the charging network. To be honest, Tesla is still miles ahead of the game on this in my experience.

I mentioned elsewhere in the thread that my home charger is broken at the moment, which means over the last month or so I have reacquainted myself with what non-Tesla drivers have to experience when it comes to charging. When my home charger is working, I know that wherever I go within the range of the car, I'll pass a number of Superchargers on the way. I've never had to wait for an available charger, and I drove this thing right the way down to Southern Italy and back recently!

However, while this is great when my home charger works, there is no Tesla Supercharger actually in my town or neighbouring towns, so I've had to rely on other networks for charging for my local driving, and it's awful. I've literally seen EV drivers shouting at each other over whose turn it is to use the next available one of the two Gridserve chargers at Gloucester Services; I've experienced broken single-charger Osprey sites; had to wait what felt like a lifetime for an BMW driver who was determined to charge to exactly 100% at a BP Pulse charger (the other BP Pulse charger at the location was broken); even Instavolt - which was my go to reliable network in my pre-Tesla days - let me down with a broken charger. It's awful.

So right now, Tesla ownership is still a world away from owning other EVs in the UK. In fact, I think even in just the few months since I last owned a non-Tesla EV, it has got much worse. Perhaps there are slightly more chargers now than then, but the numbers of EVs on the road seems to be growing far faster than the installation of new chargers. I experienced broken charger annoyances plenty of times back when I last owned a non-Tesla EV, but the numbers of cars queuing for the chargers has gone through the roof now compared to then. Even on journeys where I can use Superchargers, I always glance over at the other chargers at the location if there are any and am amazed how many queuing EVs are always waiting for them nowadays.

But like you, I worry about what Tesla opening up their network to other EVs will do. If the same queues form at Tesla Superchargers (keeping in mind that non-Teslas ofter have to park in such a way that they block two stalls because of where their charge ports are), then that's a huge selling point for Tesla gone. At that point, the main thing keeping me in a Tesla will be the performance, handling and efficiency. If Tesla does lose the Supercharger advantage, and another manufacturer brings out a car that comes close to the Model 3's performance and efficiency for the same price, I would probably switch at that point - particularly because it'll probably have much better driver aids.

Great post and a really useful view of what the world is like outside the Supercharger network (my experience is limited, old, and awful).
The dash for electric is going to be a world of pain until chargers have drive in drive out, queuing, and mega volts…