The thing I thought I’d like the most about my Model 3 is the thing I like the least

I know I’m going to catch some flak for this thread whatever I do, so I will try to head off at least some of it by saying up front that I still love my Model 3 overall, think it’s better than other EVs available at the same price point for a variety of reasons, and I have no intention of swapping it for something else. I’m sure I’ll get a flood of “well if you hate it so much why don’t you sell it!!” replies despite having said this

But today I was ‘hypermiling’ down the motorway, sat behind a lorry that was doing a steady 56mph. I don’t normally try to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency like that, but my home charger is broken at the moment and rapid charging costs are ruinous, so needs must! As I did this, I became more and more annoyed that the car would frequently back off a few mph, let some distance build up to the lorry, then surge back up to my set speed (60mph), close right up to the lorry, then back off again, over and over. I find the adaptive cruise control in the Model 3 frequently does this. It doesn’t match the speed of the vehicle in front, it sort of matches the speed of the vehicle in front within a 5mph or so range, backing off and closing up again frequently. It is annoying.

I then thought back to my previous two cars that had adaptive cruise control, which were both VWs. In those cars, the speed always matched exactly to the vehicle in front. No backing off and surging forward, it was extremely precise. Why is the VW system so much better? Presumably because it uses a radar to detect the distance rather than relying on cameras.

It then occurred to me that when I bought the Tesla, I’d believed the hype about its ‘self-driving’ aids, believed it was the leader in this technology, and it was the thing I was most interested in trying out. However, I now think that in the real world, Tesla’s implementation of this is much worse than VW’s, and presumably other traditional manufacturers too. I tried the Enhanced Autopilot as well, but got my money back as, Autopark aside, it was hopeless. The thing I thought I would like most about the Model 3 is the thing I like the least.

Now, that’s ok overall. I’ve discovered over my time owning the car that there are many many things I love about this car, and overall those things make up for the crappy driver aid implementation. But I thought it worth posting my opinion in case belief that Tesla’s driver aids are more advanced than others is a reason anyone here is considering buying a Model 3. If you think that’s the car’s USP, and it is really important to you, then you will be disappointed. You’ll find loads of other amazing things about the car that you love, but you will be disappointed in the self-driving tech on UK roads in 2022.

I also know that data scientists are going to set me on fire for this thread, because I don’t understand the awesome potential of vision based systems, and that the AI models will learn and improve over time. That’s fine, but I bought a car in 2022 to work as a car in 2022. I didn’t buy the car for the joy of being part of a research project, or in the hope that in 5-10 years time it will surpass the abilities of cars that rely on radar. If you’re happy to accept lousy driver aid performance to be at the vanguard of a machine learning revolution then fine, but I just want features on my car to work now, like they did on my VWs.

But again, to repeat one last time - I prefer my Model 3 to my previous cars overall, and have no desire to get rid of it.

(Featured Image Courtesy of Tesla, Inc)

 

[Hurricane]

I've had non-Tesla EVs (VW e-Golf and ID.3) and now a Tesla since Feb, so I've seen both sides of the charging network. To be honest, Tesla is still miles ahead of the game on this in my experience.

I mentioned elsewhere in the thread that my home charger is broken at the moment, which means over the last month or so I have reacquainted myself with what non-Tesla drivers have to experience when it comes to charging. When my home charger is working, I know that wherever I go within the range of the car, I'll pass a number of Superchargers on the way. I've never had to wait for an available charger, and I drove this thing right the way down to Southern Italy and back recently!

However, while this is great when my home charger works, there is no Tesla Supercharger actually in my town or neighbouring towns, so I've had to rely on other networks for charging for my local driving, and it's awful. I've literally seen EV drivers shouting at each other over whose turn it is to use the next available one of the two Gridserve chargers at Gloucester Services; I've experienced broken single-charger Osprey sites; had to wait what felt like a lifetime for an BMW driver who was determined to charge to exactly 100% at a BP Pulse charger (the other BP Pulse charger at the location was broken); even Instavolt - which was my go to reliable network in my pre-Tesla days - let me down with a broken charger. It's awful.

So right now, Tesla ownership is still a world away from owning other EVs in the UK. In fact, I think even in just the few months since I last owned a non-Tesla EV, it has got much worse. Perhaps there are slightly more chargers now than then, but the numbers of EVs on the road seems to be growing far faster than the installation of new chargers. I experienced broken charger annoyances plenty of times back when I last owned a non-Tesla EV, but the numbers of cars queuing for the chargers has gone through the roof now compared to then. Even on journeys where I can use Superchargers, I always glance over at the other chargers at the location if there are any and am amazed how many queuing EVs are always waiting for them nowadays.

But like you, I worry about what Tesla opening up their network to other EVs will do. If the same queues form at Tesla Superchargers (keeping in mind that non-Teslas ofter have to park in such a way that they block two stalls because of where their charge ports are), then that's a huge selling point for Tesla gone. At that point, the main thing keeping me in a Tesla will be the performance, handling and efficiency. If Tesla does lose the Supercharger advantage, and another manufacturer brings out a car that comes close to the Model 3's performance and efficiency for the same price, I would probably switch at that point - particularly because it'll probably have much better driver aids.

I can’t argue with your experience, but my experience is very different. Perhaps it’s the part of the country you live in. I find I quite often have to queue at superchargers, particularly at Tebay and Gretna. At Gretna I usually opt to use IONITY because I get a significantly faster charge.

My two daughters both have Zoes. They are both high mileage drivers and often use public chargers. Yes, there is a bit of planning involved but apps such as Zap-Map shows where the chargers are and whether they are working or not.

The charging network is getting better, and it’s a lottery postcode as to whether you have decent coverage.

 

[Zilla91]

Before I got my charger installed I had to make use of public chargers for a month and I was pleasantly surprised by how many 50kw chargers were about in my area (North East), even if the cost was eye watering (50p per kwh)

What was frustrating was that you’d pick one, go there and find either a hybrid or some inconsiderate dickhead trying to charge their e-niro to 100%. Luckily I settled on a geniepoint charger in the local Morrisons that no one seemed to know about so it was always available.

 

[DM206433]

some inconsiderate dickhead trying to charge their e-niro to 100%

Might need the range? Hybrids I kind of get but can't really get too miffed at a fully electric driver.

 

[Zilla91]

Charging beyond 80% is inconsiderate when there are others who need to charge. The charging speed falls off a cliff beyond 80%. That extra 20% isn’t going to make or break a journey

 

[yessuz]

Might need the range? Hybrids I kind of get but can't really get too miffed at a fully electric driver.

He is doing it wrong. Charging to las 10 % takes same time as to charge 20% to 80%.

It is much more efficient to charge less and have another charge than to try to charge last 20 miles of range

 

[AutomaticMan]

I can’t argue with your experience, but my experience is very different. Perhaps it’s the part of the country you live in. I find I quite often have to queue at superchargers, particularly at Tebay and Gretna. At Gretna I usually opt to use IONITY because I get a significantly faster charge.

My two daughters both have Zoes. They are both high mileage drivers and often use public chargers. Yes, there is a bit of planning involved but apps such as Zap-Map shows where the chargers are and whether they are working or not.

The charging network is getting better, and it’s a lottery postcode as to whether you have decent coverage.

Fair enough, as you say, different experiences. I've used the Ionity at Gretna successfully before, though it is in a stupid place a long way from the main services building (but the same charge could be levelled against many Supercharger locations too). I've probably used Ionity perhaps 10 times in my life, as the ID.3 came with discounted charging on them. On 2 of those occasions the whole site was down, with drivers going out of their minds trying each stall in turn. It took me to be the first to abandon the headless chicken approach and phone the support number. Both times there was a problem with their payment system connecting to the site, making all chargers inoperable. On 1 of those occasions the chap on the phone said "we're sending an engineer, but if I were you, I'd try a different network because it may take a while." I passed that message onto all the other EV drivers/headless chickens... most people decided to stay and wait it out, which baffled me. I instead pulled up Zap-Map then drove well off my route to another rapid charger and charged up that way instead.

I'm also not sure that Ionity have nearly as many locations as Tesla do? Though perhaps that has improved recently? But I agree with you that getting around the UK in a non-Tesla EV is absolutely possible. I did it for years. It just takes much more research and planning using Zap-Map or ABRP or something, a positive mindset so you don't fall apart emotionally if your first choice charger is broken/blocked and I think, increasingly, a willingness to queue.

Charging beyond 80% is inconsiderate when there are others who need to charge. The charging speed falls off a cliff beyond 80%. That extra 20% isn’t going to make or break a journey

The etiquette of this is a tough one. I believe that if an EV driver has made a deliberate choice to charge up to 100%, understanding that the charge rate drops beyond 80%, then that is his/her right. Personally, I would charge above 80% if I knew that, say, 90% would get me home but 80% might not. The 80%-90% bit is a bit slower, but perhaps less hassle than pulling off the road to charge again. I have even charged to near 100% in similar circumstances before, but I would personally never do that when other cars are queued for the charger. But, discourteous though it may be, it would be my right to choose to do so.

Where the etiquette is difficult is that you just don't know whether someone is charging to 100% because they have a reason to do so, or because they're new to EVs and don't know how charging curves work. If it's daylight, plenty of people around, I will sometimes try in the most non-threatening, smiley way I can to ask the driver to roll down his window so I can talk with him. I am saying he/him because I'm a pretty big bloke and I'm very conscious of not accidentally appearing threatening to a woman driving alone, so would only chat to a woman about this is it was clear daylight, lots of people around, and she was already standing outside of the car. I will then ask what percentage he plans to charge to. If he looks at me with confusion and says "100%" in a "of course I would charge to 100%" sort of way, I will say something like "no worries, just checking. You know that the last 10% takes a lot longer though, right? It's usually quicker to charge up to 80% then head towards the next charger. It's totally ok if you want to charge to 100%, but I know some people are new to EVs so I just let people know about the charging curves in case they don't already know" then leave it at that. It's rare that they will say "oh, ok, I didn't know that! I'll move on now." But I figure they may at least google it when they get home, and not charge to 100% the next time they go to a rapid charger.

 

[Artiste]

Back on topic.

Even the demigod Elon the Infallible has admitted there is a problem with phantom braking. When asked in October 2020 if it would be fixed in the soon to be released beta software he just said “it should be”. Not exactly a reply that fills anyone with confidence.

I think anyone who denies Tesla’s FSD vapourware has a problem with phantom braking probably also belongs to the Flat Earth Society

 

[AutomaticMan]

Back on topic.

Even the demigod Elon the Infallible has admitted there is a problem with phantom braking. When asked in October 2020 if it would be fixed in the soon to be released beta software he just said “it should be”. Not exactly a reply that fills anyone with confidence.

I think anyone who denies Tesla’s FSD vapourware has a problem with phantom braking probably also belongs to the Flat Earth Society

It would be interesting if it turned out that the cameras aren’t high enough resolution. I think earlier in the thread someone said Tesla has just signed a deal with Samsung for higher resolution cameras, and also that phantom braking is being investigated by safety authorities. What would happen if the authorities ruled Autopilot unsafe, and the only possible fix was to replace the cameras? Would Tesla have to recall every model 3 and replace all the cameras? That sounds like a financially ruinous outcome for them if it is what happens. Or would they simply switch Autopilot off for owners? I would imagine they would be sued by owners if they did?

Let’s hope it’s a software fix, because any outcome if it requires hardware changes sounds pretty messy to me!

 

[KennethS]

It would be interesting if it turned out that the cameras aren’t high enough resolution. I think earlier in the thread someone said Tesla has just signed a deal with Samsung for higher resolution cameras, and also that phantom braking is being investigated by safety authorities. What would happen if the authorities ruled Autopilot unsafe, and the only possible fix was to replace the cameras? Would Tesla have to recall every model 3 and replace all the cameras? That sounds like a financially ruinous outcome for them if it is what happens. Or would they simply switch Autopilot off for owners? I would imagine they would be sued by owners if they did?

Let’s hope it’s a software fix, because any outcome if it requires hardware changes sounds pretty messy to me!

You, sir, have a very active imagination. Sure anything is possible, let's see. My view is the better cameras are a function of Tesla buying 2022 technology for future car production. Why buy the existing versions if better ones are now available at the same or similar pricing.

 

[Artiste]

It would be interesting if it turned out that the cameras aren’t high enough resolution. I think earlier in the thread someone said Tesla has just signed a deal with Samsung for higher resolution cameras, and also that phantom braking is being investigated by safety authorities. What would happen if the authorities ruled Autopilot unsafe, and the only possible fix was to replace the cameras? Would Tesla have to recall every model 3 and replace all the cameras? That sounds like a financially ruinous outcome for them if it is what happens. Or would they simply switch Autopilot off for owners? I would imagine they would be sued by owners if they did?

Let’s hope it’s a software fix, because any outcome if it requires hardware changes sounds pretty messy to me!

Tesla claimed back in 2016 that every car sold was capable of SAE Level 5 autonomy with future software upgrades. This turned out to be complete crap as the hardware was insufficient. HW 2.5 was introduced in August 2017 and HW3 was introduced in April 2019.

Tesla offered to upgrade cars for free for owners who subscribed to FSD. So if you don’t subscribe you don’t get the upgrade. This breaks their 2016 promise that ALL cars are sold with the necessary hardware for Level 5 autonomy.

It will be interesting to see if new cameras, a new CPU and possibly even a higher res radar will be needed. Tesla will be obliged to offer a free upgrade, but will no doubt only offer it to those who pay the extortionate price for their FSD beta software.

 

[MrT3]

He is doing it wrong. Charging to las 10 % takes same time as to charge 20% to 80%.

Not on a 50 kW charger it doesn't as the charger is the bottle neck so the first 20% to 80% isn't that fast to begin with.

 

[AutomaticMan]

You, sir, have a very active imagination. Sure anything is possible, let's see. My view is the better cameras are a function of Tesla buying 2022 technology for future car production. Why buy the existing versions if better ones are now available at the same or similar pricing.

It’s a web forum. If no-one engaged in speculation there’d be nothing to talk about

I also don't think it's wild speculation to say that a regulator could rule Autopilot to be unsafe and tell Tesla to fix it. It sounds like they're already under investigation so that must be a possible outcome of the investigation. And the problem must be due to either software, hardware (which might include cameras) or a combination of the two. Certainly, manufacturers having to recall vehicles to make hardware changes to fix safety issues is a thing that happens.

Tesla claimed back in 2016 that every car sold was capable of SAE Level 5 autonomy with future software upgrades. This turned out to be complete crap as the hardware was insufficient. HW 2.5 was introduced in August 2017 and HW3 was introduced in April 2019.

Tesla offered to upgrade cars for free for owners who subscribed to FSD. So if you don’t subscribe you don’t get the upgrade. This breaks their 2016 promise that ALL cars are sold with the necessary hardware for Level 5 autonomy.

It will be interesting to see if new cameras, a new CPU and possibly even a higher res radar will be needed. Tesla will be obliged to offer a free upgrade, but will no doubt only offer it to those who pay the extortionate price for their FSD beta software.

Hmm... interesting! Though, in this case phantom braking is a problem for people even with basic Autopilot. So if a safety authority said it was unsafe even for basic Autopilot vehicles, I don't see how they could used FSD purchase as the factor to determine which vehicles get fixed?

 

[Type2]

You, sir, have a very active imagination. Sure anything is possible, let's see. My view is the better cameras are a function of Tesla buying 2022 technology for future car production. Why buy the existing versions if better ones are now available at the same or similar pricing.

But will new cameras also need the CPU to be upgraded? Cameras with more than four times the resolution are going to need significantly more processing power.

 

[Leejmoff]

I'll be honest, I haven't noticed my car do this backing off and speeding up thing on cruise control. Very strange. In fact I'm impressed with how well it does it.

 

[MrT3]

But will new cameras also need the CPU to be upgraded? Cameras with more than four times the resolution are going to need significantly more processing power.

We don't know if they will use the extra resolution or not. Potentially the camera itself could downsample to reduce noise, or the camera spec is better in some other way such as low light performance or higher dynamic range so it isn't affected by sunlight quite so much etc.

 

[AutomaticMan]

I'll be honest, I haven't noticed my car do this backing off and speeding up thing on cruise control. Very strange. In fact I'm impressed with how well it does it.

I almost always have my follow distance set to 1 (this is already a big enough gap that other drivers lane change into it all the time), so maybe that's the difference? Also, in my describing of it I've possibly given the wrong impression that this all happens quickly, with sudden acceleration/deceleration - it doesn't. It may take a minute or two to go from backing off slightly and building up a bigger gap, to noticing the gap is too big and accelerating to maybe 2mph or so above the speed of the vehicle in front and closing the gap. Eventually, it will then realise it has closed the gap too much, decelerate to slightly below the vehicle in front's speed to increase the gap, and the cycle begins again. But all this happens over minutes rather than seconds.

 

[Leejmoff]

I almost always have my follow distance set to 1 (this is already a big enough gap that other drivers lane change into it all the time), so maybe that's the difference? Also, in my describing of it I've possibly given the wrong impression that this all happens quickly, with sudden acceleration/deceleration - it doesn't. It may take a minute or two to go from backing off slightly and building up a bigger gap, to noticing the gap is too big and accelerating to maybe 2mph or so above the speed of the vehicle in front and closing the gap. Eventually, it will then realise it has closed the gap too much, decelerate to slightly below the vehicle in front's speed to increase the gap, and the cycle begins again. But all this happens over minutes rather than seconds.

ah that could be it. I have mine set to 6 or 7 so probably don't really notice it too much with being that far back. Either way it definitely is a tad annoying if you notice it.

 

[yessuz]

Not on a 50 kW charger it doesn't as the charger is the bottle neck so the first 20% to 80% isn't that fast to begin with.

it does even on 50 kw charger.

your last 10% drips at ~20 kw, while last 5% are at ~15 kw. it even manages to bottleneck the 50 kw charger tho

 

[Lee Davis]

I almost always have my follow distance set to 1

1

I have it set either to 4 or 5. Very occasionally higher. I would be very nervous at 1. I figure if people are going to cut in, they're going to cut in. I leave space and just chill with it.

 

[Big_D]

FWIW I’ve had my M3 SR+ since beginning of Dec last year. Have done 5,000 miles since, 70-80% of that on motorways. I’ve experienced two phantom braking instances, both while on TACC and on motorways in the first month. None since and we’ve just done Derby-Bath-Torquay-Derby without any TACC / Autopilot issues.

I drive mostly on TACC on the motorway as I don’t have EAP and overtaking cars using Autopilot is annoying (and fixable by Tesla in my eyes). I would buy EAP just to get the overtaking feature, but £3,400 is way too much as I wouldn’t use many of the other features. Had self-park on previous car and was way too slow to be useful.

I have not experienced the fast accelerating /slowing down issue behind other cars at all.