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The WhiteHouse designating 48 National Electric Vehicle Charging Corridors on our Highways

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by Husamia, Nov 3, 2016.

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What is your reaction to this news?

  1. Positive

    60 vote(s)
    71.4%
  2. Negative

    7 vote(s)
    8.3%
  3. Undecided No response

    17 vote(s)
    20.2%
  1. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Gasoline and diesel taxes help our country pay the bills. The fewer EV's there are, the less taxes we pay!

    In fact, electricity used for EV's should be taxed like gasoline to pay for the roads.

    Kidding of course.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  2. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Doing that would seem to benefit the others much more than it does Tesla. The model Elon pushed for is other automakers sharing in the costs of developing the supercharger network and also adopting the charging standard (plus ensuring the car is minimally fast enough, ruling out the existing cars that max out at 50kW). That would avoid having to build access control into the adapter itself.

    The other way to avoid access control would be to charge a lot of money for an adapter (enough to cover the network costs for the entire lifetime of the adapter), but that would potentially be thousands, and people would likely balk at paying so much up front.

    Any solution where the given non-Tesla car didn't pay their share of the costs of installing the network, Tesla customers may be outraged at (esp. if they had to wait for it while charging).
     
  3. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    I think we are making good progress but commercial interests other than Tesla have not yet really stepped up yet.

    I think there is still a useful role for government grants based on DMV fees to create basic corridor charging infrastructure that private investors (or Dieselgate settlers like VW) can then fill in as initial standards-based longer-range 200+ mile EVs get delivered to customers in larger volumes.

    Yes, we could just wait for market forces to incentivize charging infrastructure along all highway corridors but we need to bring forward the timeline in order to minimize the climate impacts. If CO2 externalities were properly reflected in gasoline prices that would be good but that isn't the reality we live in. So, we need to compensate with some government funding.
     
  4. Evbwcaer

    Evbwcaer Member

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    I essentially agree with everything you said Stopcrazy. Since 60 owners could pay $2,000, that might be a fair starting point. That could alleviate enraged Tesla owners, becuase the non-Tesla owner has just as much skin in the game as a 60 owner.

    There are ways to deal with slower charging vehicles, access priority, etc. It is worth noting that these vehicles would probably charge faster in terms of time because their batteries are smaller and they are more efficient.

    Just anecdotally, tell me if you agree, it seems like Superchargers, in general, are underutilized, meaning they are almost never full. I understand that there are exceptions to this.
    What this means though is Tesla could be selling the difference between maximum utilization and actual utilization.

    If true, this also means that, in general, each vehicle added to the system allows for expansion of the system in excess of what that vehicle will utilize. The more, the better.

    I realize that if you live in Tesla dense areas you may see things differently. However, if a Leaf owner in Utah buys an adapter, that frees up funds for California Supercharges bcecuase the Superchargers in Utah have suprlus/wasted capacity.
     
  5. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    Adapter or no adapter, Leafs can't take the power the superchargers put out and don't have the range to get from one supercharger to the next.
     
  6. Evbwcaer

    Evbwcaer Member

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    No car can take the power that Superchargers put out and that doesn't really matter regardless. The problem would arise from the length of time a car needs to be at the SC.

    It is true that in some cases a current Leaf can't make it from one SC to the next, but they might only need one charge to complete a trip, and in some cases the SCs are close enough together for a current Leaf.

    What about the Bolt, or the next gen Leaf?

    My concern is more about the future. If Tesla makes a Chademo and CCS adapter, figures out the logistics of billing/cost/priority, all of a sudden a single-standard, nationwide, reliable, DC fast charging network is here and now.
     
  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #47 stopcrazypp, Nov 5, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
    No way would $2000 be a fair starting point for a non-Tesla. An S60 owner already had subsidized the network out of its margins even without paying for the option (Tesla's network construction is funded partially from advertising budget and partially from a cut out of gross margin for all vehicles). An adapter would also probably need to cover for 20 years (given it can be used in more than one vehicle), not just the 8 years Tesla is assuming for their own vehicles (according to SEC). So it has to be higher than even the $2500 add-on price for the S60 (after factory), probably something like $4000 (or even higher).

    People bring this up a lot for justifying slow charging vehicles. The MPH is what matters in utilization, not time for a charge session, and vehicles like the Leaf don't do much if any better at highway speeds in terms of efficiency. A Leaf charges 67 miles of range in 30 minutes, while an S60 charges 120 miles and a S85 170 miles.

    A short range non-Tesla vehicle that had to stop more often and charge at a slower 50kW rate would still use up more supercharger time than a Tesla vehicle for the same trip. The network should exclude vehicles that can't charge 90kW or faster, if Tesla wants to use the network efficiently and doesn't want to outrage other users.

    Sorry, I don't buy this argument for a minute. An adapter does not control for under utilization, since Tesla has no practical control for where the adapter would be used. On the flip side, if Tesla made an adapter that can only be used in unpopular stations, it won't sell anyways. In fact, such an adapter is likely going to be used in the most congested and popular supercharger stations, because most non-Tesla EVs are being sold in such areas.
     
  8. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    the reality is that as EVs become more common the revenuers are looking at charging road use fees based on mileage. GA last year instituted a fee for EVs I believe it was $250 per year. you can expect more of this across the nation.
     
  9. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    Here's how EV charging works:

    There is a language that both the car and the charger speak. If they don't talk to each other, no high power is transmitted to the car.
    What they talk is amperage and voltage. You can charge any size battery off any size charger if both the battery and charger are "smart".

    It's a misconception that the next 5 years your car will only use a single specific kind of charger. You'll use many different kinds of charging. I also think that if the government doesn't stop it, EVs with ranges of under 100 miles will always exist. They will be the $15k cars for the masses. Here's a REAL eye-opener. The average human driver does not think $35k is cheap, not even in the USA. It might be the median new car price, but a LOT of cheaper sedans and even CUV's are sold, down to $13k in the US, and $3k in other parts of the world.

    People can either claim to be "pro-EV" or they put the rubber to the road. That means support for cars from $3k to $3 million. It doesn't mean most the people will have to walk to work in the EV era of transportation.

    EDIT - How will the government ban $15k cars? The same way they banned $6k cars. More and more mandatory equipment.
     
  10. jkn

    jkn Member

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    I did not answer to: "What is your reaction to this news?"

    If charging stations max at 50 kW, my answer is negative. If 100 kW or more, postive.

    Slow charging car cannot replace an ICE, so slow charging stations are waste of money.
     
  11. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    Right now, in the USA, there are more EV's with batteries 30kWh or smaller than 31kWh and larger. The over 30 group has a dedicated network of proprietary equipment to service them. However, they are double the median US car price or higher.

    So the Federal EV Highways would allow the largest group of EV's (affordable class) to operate in some areas that are denied to them today.

    However, the affordable class EV's have so little range, that you spend more time charging than driving. You cannot charge a 30kWh EV battery at 125kW with modern technology.

    I do agree that they SHOULD be 125kW or higher so Teslas are better supported, but the 125kW non-Tesla chargers are CCS connector, something that Tesla does not support.

    So if you put in 1,000 chargers that support 125kW all around the globe today, they would never be used as 125kW chargers regardless. The 125kW would be for the future, which is a serious gamble when charging technology is in it's development phase still.

    Honestly nobody actually knows if the Tesla, CHAdeMO, or CCS connector will be the #1 connector in 2025. Since modern EV's with DCFC are only 5 years old, in 8 more years EVERYTHING could change. In The Beginning, there was CHAdeMO...

    BTW, none of the technologies in place is fast charging yet. There is just less-slow charging, but we are nowhere near fast as liquid refueling yet.

    Cliff Notes: Lower powered DCFC networks serve the masses of entry level EVs. Advanced EV's are already supported.
     
  12. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    Keep in mind that CCS has a defined upgrade path. My guess is that the network will be installed to allow easy upgrade. We also need to be realistic that thanks to the Supercharger network Tesla drivers have much less need for this than do the Chevrolet, Hyundai, BMW, MB, Nissan, etc.

    It would be quite nice were Tesla part of this group, but Tesla is a member of CharIN, the standard-bearer for CCS.
     
  13. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    The masses of entry level EVs hurt the cause of moving away from ICE, as they reinforce the popular notion that EVs aren't practical. The government should not be trying to accommodate their use for travel. There's not much bang for the buck there.
     
  14. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    Never? Serious gamble?

    Everything I see points to multiple non-Tesla models becoming available over the next 4 years that will have bigger batteries and will be able to take good advantage of 125kW/250A charging stations. It's even possible the 2017 Bolt EV will be able to take good advantage of them to charge well beyond 50 kW even though GM won't talk about it yet.

    The bigger risk is putting in 1,000 highway corridor chargers that will become almost immediately obsolete because they are too slow and low-powered and that the chargers will inhibit the growth of bigger capacity EVs from being successful in the market.

    In my opinion, the chargers being installed need to "stretch" and be a little ahead of their time today so they will be adequate and still useful in 5 years.
     
    • Like x 2
  15. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK, as of today, GM has no need for a national DCFC grid.
    So only the wealthy should drive. Poor people should be deported. Who is going to mow your lawn?
     
    • Disagree x 1
  16. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    I suppose the wording of paragraph 1 is confusing. A 125kW CCS installed today will not change anything at all as far as GHG or EV adoption. By the time it would make a significant change in the infrastructure, it is unlikely it will up to date any longer. I think it's a GREAT idea, but it's simply not supported. Tesla does not want it, and the majority of EV's have absolutely no use for it.

    Nobody knows what DCFC tecnology will win. It could go the route of Diesel vs Gas, 4 conflicting specifications that must be supported, #2 Diesel, 87 Gasoline, 91 Gasoline, E85 Gasoline. But I don't believe the final EV fast charging technology has been developed yet. It's still in it's infancy.
     
  17. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    I sort of see today as the early days of Video media.
    BetaMax - Medium Price, high quality, short duration tapes.
    VHS - Low Price, low quality, long duration tapes.
    Laser Disc - High Price, high quality, high duration disc.

    Who won? Nobody. All three of those are footnotes. Internet and Cable video won and are in a life and death struggle with each other.

    I don't think Cable or Streaming technology has appeared to the EV charging world yet. We are still battling with Betamax today.
     
  18. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    So, if you were in charge back in the late 1970's you would have cancelled the Betamax and VHS products and forced everyone to wait 30 years for Netflix to begin streaming movies on demand in 2007? I seem to remember huge customer demand for retail video rental stores during that time spread in spite of the fact that cable TV with HBO etc. existed during that 30 year period.

    In the real world, progress happens in stages and those stages are often a necessary path that enables later technologies to develop and emerge.
     
  19. RDoc

    RDoc S85D

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    Is there actually anything to this announcement other than optics?
     
  20. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there were many other losers prior to where we are today in the video media standards. The laser disc and consumer Betamax were short lived. Others were longer lived. OnTV and SelectTV are virtually forgotten steps. I don't even remember how quickly they collapsed, I think they predated VHS?

    Back to EV charging: There is at least 2 losers in the EV charging field so far, the inductive EV1 system, and the Tesla Roadster system.
     

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