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They said "you can't stay on 7.0 forever. .."

Discussion in 'Model S' started by green1, Aug 6, 2016.

  1. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    And they were right...

    As many know, I have been refusing the update to 7.1 ever since it came out as I refuse to accept the limitations added to autopilot. My autopilot works beautifully in all situations, and I've seen no reason why I would want to add any limits to that. Nor have I seen any features introduced since that would be worth more to me than my unrestricted autopilot which I use on a daily basis.

    Well now Tesla has decided to play dirty. About a month ago voice recognition stopped working. I'm told that the API on Tesla's end has changed and is no longer compatible with my car's software. That wasn't enough to force me on to the update though, so yesterday they disabled google maps too. Once again I'm told the only solution is to update the software and accept the new limitations.

    I believe that Tesla is refusing to honour the warranty on my vehicle by tying the repair of existing features such as voice control and mapping to my accepting limitations be added to unrelated features.

    I'm currently weighing my options, but I can say that I'm NOT happy, and this is one more thing making me not want to recommend Tesla as a company to do business with to anyone in the future. I was at a car show last night telling everyone how great Tesla is, I will definitely be thinking twice about that in the future.

    I'm still on 7.0 as of right now, and trying to work with Tesla to come to an acceptable arrangement, however the conversations so far are not making me optimistic of a resolution that will do anything but leave a bad taste in my mouth.
     
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  2. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    Well, if it helps any, the collective improvements to TACC and Autosteer alone outweigh the minimal limitations ascribed thereto.

    Which limitation is it that you find onerous? Or is it the lack of specificity as to what changed from update to update a concern?

    While it would be far preferable to have an updated, granular change log (newest on top) with each release, that ain't happening. But just recently they've added a one-line "Minor fixes and improvements." From a process perspective, that's a great thing. So at least you know what not to expect, as it were. Between that and Ingineer's module change list, there's some info.

    Separately, I thought the maps updates were separate. I've only gotten 1-2 of those in 19 months.

    I was concerned at first when they announced 7.1.x, but after tens of thousands of miles through over 40 states this past year or so, my conclusion is that upgrading to current won't suck nearly as badly as you think.

    If you're still concerned, perhaps arranging for a weekend loaner of an AP car from a nearby SvC or gallery might help? That way you could experience firsthand what you'd get...

    Just my $0.02.
     
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  3. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    I am on Windows 95. Many software and websites completely stopped working or working in degraded mode.

    I am planning to sue Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Lotus and every other software company
     
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  4. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    #4 green1, Aug 6, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
    From all descriptions, there's really no improvement to autosteer over what my car does right now. All improvements people have talked about have also improved on my car without any software update.

    As for what I find unacceptable, it's both of the added restrictions in 7.1, the addition of timed nags to hold the wheel are bad enough, but the addition of limits to what speed you can activate it at on certain roads is a complete deal breaker. I spend the majority of my driving time on roads where the car either doesn't know the speed limit at all, or has it incorrect.

    Also, the part disabled yesterday was not the navigation, it was the Google maps display on the dash. That's now a blank grey screen.

    As for the ludicrous win 95 reference, not even remotely comparable. This software is not 20 years old, it's not even 20 months old. Windows 95 is long out of support, but my car is still under warranty. Additionally it's not third party software refusing to work with it, it's tesla's own software. To my knowledge, every feature built in to, or advertised for, windows 95 still works on a computer running that OS. Not so a Tesla running software that is only a few months old.
     
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  5. Odebek

    Odebek Don't Panic

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    I understand your frustration, but we are all agreeing that the software is beta and will need to change in response to improved capabilities and the regulatory environment. It seems reasonable to put some limits so that Tesla has the ability to get to autonomous driving. Without the restrictions, we will be inundated with drivers doing stupid stuff on youtube or being unwilling to take responsibility for accidents while AP is enabled. I would think of it more of a short term annoyance until 8.0 vs a permanent purgatory.

    I am sure if you complain loud enough that Tesla will refund your AP purchase price and turn it off for you, but do you really want that?
     
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  6. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    What feature do you care about? If they turned that off in a software update what would you do? Would you just say "oh well, it's beta so it's fine? "

    You may have agreed that they can remove functionality at will, but I certainly never did. There's nothing in any of the paperwork I signed that said they could remove features that I paid for after purchase. If this is a regulatory matter, prove it. I've never seen anything to indicate that any regulatory body has insisted on these changes.
     
  7. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    Let's say there was a critical bug that Tesla fixed in a later release and your AP happened to malfunction and ended up in accident because you refused to upgrade - you get to sue again.

    You get to sue if Tesla forced you to upgrade (and helped avoid an accident). You get to sue if you resisted the upgrade and ended in a accident. Win-win for you
     
  8. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    Please list what this critical bug is. I'm not aware of one, and neither are you.

    If they want to upgrade my software, that's fine. What's not fine is adding restrictions after purchase.
     
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  9. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    I think it's up to you to make this choice. I don't think it's fair to blame Tesla for moving on with software development and I don't think it's reasonable to not recommend Tesla to anyone because of your choice in this case. I get that you don't want those limitations, but I'm not sure I agree with how your consider this to be so much more important than everything else your car does and have to a degree that you would rather recommend not to buy a Tesla at all. I have no AP at all and I still think I have an awesome car.
     
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  10. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    Letting the car drive for an extended period of time without any input from the driver, is a critical safety bug, that was fixed in a subsequent release.

    You are driving a car that is less safe than the rest of Model S on the road. Putting yourself and others in danger.

    You should be happy that Tesla has not disabled your car... yet
     
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  11. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    Ok, my choice is for everything to work the way it did when I bought the car. Just like every other car I've ever owned, and just like the warranty says it will. Why is that so hard?

    Tesla is free to do software development and upgrades. They are not free to remove functionality I paid for after I took posession of the car.

    I am hoping tesla will do the right thing here, but we shall see. The one thing that will not happen, regardless of what anyone says on here, is me simply accepting tesla's right to cripple my software with no recourse or compensation. I will escalate this as far as I possibly can if required.
     
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  12. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    I really don't understand this forum at all. I've been involved in several auto enthusiast groups over the years. But I have NEVER even heard of one that actively discourages tinkering, or getting the most out of your vehicle. This club isn't enthusiasts, it's rabid fanbois.
     
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  13. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    I don't understand the issue. Is it that you're upset that older software is no longer supported? Tesla not supporting older software isn't the same thing as them disabling features.

    Anyway, dealerships apply TSBs to vehicles all day everyday without owner approval, so no one's vehicles work exactly as they did at purchasing...a good thing, in general.

    *shrugs*
     
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  14. Odebek

    Odebek Don't Panic

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    #14 Odebek, Aug 6, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
    I am a software engineering exec, so yes I have both participated and delivered software through Beta programs many times; including software delivered in a regulated environment (healthcare). Many times customers ask for features, and we even test features with customers that end up on the cutting room floor due to liability or regulatory risk. That can come about from regulators putting limits on what we do, or us making independent/proactive decisions based on our own risk analysis. Either way, it seems in this case that (during the Beta program) Tesla discovered a large number of drivers not using the service as directed, driving from the backseat, driving at high speed on side roads, etc. The liability risk was probably too great for them to continue the program without reasonable controls. (i.e. if some idiot tesla driver killed a group of school kids while sleeping at the wheel on a side road driving 70mph in a 35 zone.... the liability could sink the company.)

    Similar thing happened to me recently. I bought a DJI Phantom drone and love flying it over my house, but I live close to a regional airport. They pushed a software update and now I can't fly above my house because it is in a no-fly-zone. I have the inconvenience of needing to drive to a park to fly now, and they did this prior to specific legislation that would have required it. Sure it sucks because I am a responsible pilot outside of the landing path and never would have endangered anyone, but there are idiots out there that would ruin the hobby by trying to get a picture of an airliner landing, so I understand why DJI did it, even though it was a major capability difference in my $1,200 drone.
     
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  15. Odebek

    Odebek Don't Panic

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    You are not tinkering with your vehicle, your whining about the inconvenience of getting nagged to keep your hands on the steering wheel, which has always been a requirement for using autopilot, and if you are really that upset about the inaccuracies in their maps, ask for your money back and get rid of autopilot.
     
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  16. omarsultan

    omarsultan Active Member

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    I don't think it is reasonable to ask Tesla to create a release train just for you, which is essentially what you asking for.
     
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  17. Canuck

    Canuck Active Member

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    Do you really think Tesla is doing this just to force you to take the update? I find that really difficult to believe.

    Oh please. No one here actively discourages tinkering or getting the most out of your vehicle. When wk057 did that he had some of the longest and most viewed threads here. Plus, he took Tesla to task constantly here and he had a ton of supporters and more rep points than anyone except Bonnie. Remember his threads on HP misrep, AP delay, etc.?

    Maybe there's some merit in the comments in reply to you, and maybe tinkering or getting the most of your vehicle isn't simply refusing updates?
     
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  18. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    As one of the last forum denizens that would ever be accused of being a fanboi, I am reminded of when 7.1 first came out. No way was I going to apply that update because, in part, I too drive on a lot of non-freeways - as well, you'd be surprised at some of the nearly-impassable goat paths Nav/Trip Planner has recommended over time.

    Then I took a shot, applied the update, and found that I was still able to use a much-improved-over-time TACC and an evolving Autosteer whether on freeways or not. Now, 10 months later, Autosteer has improved markedly, still has a ways to go, and the speed management has proven to be more of a positive than a negative.

    Besides, you haven't lived until you see the motorcycle and large truck icons front and center.

    But don't take my word for it. Philosophy and principles aside for a couple of days, the easiest practical evaluation would be via a weekend or short-term AP loaner. I bet they'd do that, and then you'd know from firsthand experience rather than surmising from available info or from the blatherings of forum folk. Such as myself. I'd also pose this concern at the tesla.com/forum as there's not as much cross-pollination these days.

    In case the nearest SvC or gallery is far away, then some creativity may be required :).
     
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  19. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    I'm still on 6.x (classic S) and both my voice recognition and Google map main display is still functioning. So your issues might be unrelated.

    I know there was a point where voice recognition stopped working for about 2 weeks, but it was since fixed.
     
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  20. CuriousG

    CuriousG Member

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    When you took possession of your car, weren't you running 6.x? In that case, you had no AutoPilot.
     
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