Things my wife said about Navigate on Autopilot tonight

[DrDabbles]

People talking about what number to set follow distance to. When I was 15 1/2 they taught up 1 car length for every 10 mph. There absolutely should not be a set distance as it varies depending on how fast you are going. The software knows how fast you're going and how far away the car in front of you is. It should be pretty simple but clearly nobody taught those developers the 1 car length per 10mph. I've seen nothing in the owners manual or written on here to suggest that numeric setting is not speed adjusted.

As already mentioned, the developers did think about it. You just didn't bother to read the comprehensive manual. That tells me a lot, actually.

if the car in front of you stops suddenly. That is physically impossible.

Nope. You're thinking of the word "instantly" not "suddenly". Stopping suddenly doesn't mean instantly stopping, it means they begin the process quickly without warning. Words have meaning, and understanding them is pretty important.

The last sentence is silly. How is anyone, much less a 16 yr old, going to measure what a 3 second stop distance is.

Again, you've misread the entire sentence. It doesn't say a 3 second stopping distance, it says a 3 second following distance. This is all very telling still. You've interpreted the words to mean what you want them to mean. And since you're calling the authors the "woke generation", I'm guessing you believe that somehow those authors' advice is less valuable because they're younger than you?

Either way, judging a 3 second follow time is pretty simple. If you can't do it, you shouldn't have your driver's license.

Seconds are a measure of time, distance is a measure of space.

This is going to bake your noodle, but speed is a measurement of distance over time, and the blurb you quoted is describing how to properly adjust your speed in a situation where you're following another vehicle. Poor weather conditions increase stopping distance and therefore stopping time. So adjust your speed accordingly.

Maybe the real problem here is that this "woke" generation you're speaking of has the ability to understand complex examples given in a certain context? Or, maybe they just read the complete sentence instead of pre-judging what the sentence is going to tell them.

 

[TeeEmCee]

Yes. For example, a Miata you are following at 1 second delay piles into the back of a stopped UPS truck.

x = v^2/(2*a) + t_r*v

t_s = v/a + t_r

a = ~9.5m/s^2 for Model 3 with MXM4s
t_r is reaction time, t_s is stopping time
x is stopping distance

This is like modern astrophysics, i.e. build a mathematical model that ignores basic direct observations that contradict its premise:

One can see a UPS truck by looking OVER the Miata (and would therefore have ample reaction time) and, just as obviously, a proper Miata would safely drive UNDER the UPS truck, thereby increasing the available braking distance for the following vehicle.




Edit: added mandatory smiley, lest this be taken seriously and devolve into the adding of vehicular dark matter to keep the equations from contradicting direct observation.

 

[Fernand]

Yeah, I totally agree!
Like “buy FSD before August 16th, 2019, when we will increase the price!”.
“Your car will pick you up anywhere in the parking lot, really. For the low, low price of $6000. Buy it now!!!!!!”

You are perceiving it that way, because you've experienced more deceptive behavior than decency in the America you've spent much of your life in. I'm not disrespecting you, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd bet you're well under the age of 50, probably under 40.

 

[wcorey]

As already mentioned, the developers did think about it. You just didn't bother to read the comprehensive manual. That tells me a lot, actually.



Nope. You're thinking of the word "instantly" not "suddenly". Stopping suddenly doesn't mean instantly stopping, it means they begin the process quickly without warning. Words have meaning, and understanding them is pretty important.



Again, you've misread the entire sentence. It doesn't say a 3 second stopping distance, it says a 3 second following distance. This is all very telling still. You've interpreted the words to mean what you want them to mean. And since you're calling the authors the "woke generation", I'm guessing you believe that somehow those authors' advice is less valuable because they're younger than you?

Either way, judging a 3 second follow time is pretty simple. If you can't do it, you shouldn't have your driver's license.



This is going to bake your noodle, but speed is a measurement of distance over time, and the blurb you quoted is describing how to properly adjust your speed in a situation where you're following another vehicle. Poor weather conditions increase stopping distance and therefore stopping time. So adjust your speed accordingly.

Maybe the real problem here is that this "woke" generation you're speaking of has the ability to understand complex examples given in a certain context? Or, maybe they just read the complete sentence instead of pre-judging what the sentence is going to tell them.

I'm guessing you're what, 15? You're trying to inject yourself into a conversation clearly over your head. The only noodle that's baked is clearly yours. Do think about coming back when you and your girlfriend have made up. Or, better still ... Don't.

 

[Msjulie]

Question, why aren't wives on this forum talking about their husband passengers?

You just missed my post Viking or not, inconsistent unexpected behaviors on highways does nothing to calm any awake passenger and sometimes even sleeping ones are jarred..

 

[SOULPEDL]

You just missed my post Viking or not, inconsistent unexpected behaviors on highways does nothing to calm any awake passenger and sometimes even sleeping ones are jarred..

Sorry I missed it.
Planes were hard at first too, but many sleep on them despite software issues like the fatal Max crashes. The fear with AP cars too will soon pass in general. Helps to understand it along with stats and technology.
Last night, an elderly couple told me they didn't want a Tesla - said they were "too old". Those types will always be around just like people who dont fly yet.
This represents a sudden shift overnight. Unknown tech for the vast majority so the The fear is normal. My advantage is that I try to understand not run because I am curious. Maternal instinct should play a role in this Julie.... that's normal too. Lets not get all PC here, just pointing out the male vs female perspective revealed in this thread.

 

[Msjulie]

Planes were hard at first too, but many sleep on them despite software issues like the fatal Max crashes. The fear with AP cars too will soon pass in general. Helps to understand it along with stats and technology.

It's not fear, it's oversold technology *at this point*. Regardless of Illusory superiority - Wikipedia and all that, my driving is far smoother that TACC .. I don't believe I'm unique there and that seems to be the basis of the OP's post; people are still driving smoother than the car (and perhaps safer as well in some cases) so why is the passenger the 'problem'?

Maternal instinct should play a role in this Julie.... that's normal too. Lets not get all PC here, just pointing out the male vs female perspective revealed in this thread.

No argument that the posters in this thread, perhaps most threads, are male so the slant is expected and obvious. Who said anything PC?

 

[DrDabbles]

I'm guessing you're what, 15? You're trying to inject yourself into a conversation clearly over your head. The only noodle that's baked is clearly yours. Do think about coming back when you and your girlfriend have made up. Or, better still ... Don't.

Ah, yes, ageism. When you've lost your entire argument and all you have left is "you damn kids". Good for you for being brave enough to try to jump on someone you think is younger than you. I'm not 15, though, so the rest of what you said is nonsense.

I'll tell you what. Why don't you come back when you can read a sentence fully and accurately, and not make such simplistic mistakes.

 

[SOULPEDL]

It's not fear, it's oversold technology *at this point*. Regardless of Illusory superiority - Wikipedia and all that, my driving is far smoother that TACC .. I don't believe I'm unique there and that seems to be the basis of the OP's post; people are still driving smoother than the car (and perhaps safer as well in some cases) so why is the passenger the 'problem'?

I'm with you on smoothness. I sometimes share clips of the oddities myself here. I think the passenger is most often the Farmer in this pioneering process. Being the Pioneer (and for the neighborhood in some ways like many of us here), I lean towards amazement and awe at the rapid progress in automation and AI. And you can't divorce that from the mission either so it is a conviction of sorts like Japanese Billionaire Yusaku, civilian astronaut.

I use AP and study it more so that it's not a mystery, although we must expect some oddities and is less scary than teaching your kid to drive in many ways. Pretty unnerving for the average person.

Maybe it's rare for both parties in a relationship to have technical, pioneering personalities. The drivers here are no doubt "Early Adopters", but their partners (the other 86.5%), maybe not so much. About 1 in 10 people reading this are OK as a passenger and participate in co-driving with discussion on automation behaviors and progress, then get on the forum and talk about it. That's pretty much the Geek-out couple going out West to raise a family with nature!

Incidentally, the chart is foreshadowing a nice pop in $TSLA fairly soon. Still no competition to speak of.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Still no competition to speak of.

Except for TACC. I find the fact that a computer can’t drive in straight line as smoothly as a human to be very disappointing and that’s a technology that’s been around for decades. It does not inspire confidence in the future of automation and AI.

 

[Fernand]

Man, I love this car! I guess mine must be special. I have no idea what a Model 3 that doesn't have NOA behaves like, for all I know it's entirely different. Just drove from the East Bay Area to Sonora area and then back in the dark today, 250 miles, only turned off NOA/AS driving through downtowns and on craziest windiest sections of 2 lane mountain roads where advisory speed limits change incessantly.

My wife played with her phone and took a nap. I asked her WHY she'd stopped sweating it (she did at first). She said "the car drives much better and you're comfortable with it".

Version 2019.28.2.1 (again) drives differently from previous versions. No question there are changes in the NOA with these over the air updates. Smoother, more "human" and more confident merging into dense traffic. Less hesitation. My wife said "NIcki's gotten bolder". In non-NOA AP I sense faster mini-corrections on the steering. Superbly handled merges in pretty dense traffic at 60-75 MPH over highways 13, 580, 205, 5, 99, 120, 108, 49. The Mad Max lane changes were perfect. There was one move into the passing lane that I cancelled, and then I realized I was wrong, as there was slowing traffic ahead.

I had one take control moment at that poorly defined rightmost lane at 580W->13. No big deal, I dumped out of NOA, as I didn't feel like finding out what it would do. Overall, it's so damned good it's nearly "flawless". Honestly, on average, and without going into details, it cruises better and smoother than me. I'm still learning to just let it do it instead of looking for spots I might do better on.

One thing I've learned recently is NOT to set that max speed slider at "+5" as I had it, THAT can enable jerky accel. Try leaving it set to say -5 miles BELOW max, it seems to do a world of good for some reason. I'm not sure I understand the algorithm. After a transition you can scroll it up manually to a cruise speed that won't stand out and earn you a ticket, and it seems to retain that. Try it.

 

[Daniel in SD]

One thing I've learned recently is NOT to set that max speed slider at "+5" as I had it, THAT can enable jerky accel. Try leaving it set to say -5 miles BELOW max, it seems to do a world of good for some reason.

Yes, setting the speed below the speed limit will fix the jerkiness problem in many cases. Haha.

 

[Rojer Lockless]

Wife: "Why is it so jerky?"

Me: "Well, it can decelerate somewhat abruptly while on freeway interchanges..."

Wife: "It's not just around corners, it's all the time on the freeway; why do you use it if it is so bad?"

Me: "Well, I'm trying it out; I think maybe you notice less if you're driving"

Wife: "Well, I notice it. It's ok to try it out if you're the only one in the car, but it isn't cool to do it otherwise"

Me: ...

Wife: If you keep trying to use it, I'm going to stop riding in this car, and we're going to have to take my car*. It's not relaxing.

Me: <disengages Autopilot for remainder of trip>

<a couple minutes pass>

Wife: It's much smoother now. Did you turn it off?

Me: Yes, I did.

Wife: I'm much more relaxed now.


* My wife's car is a Chevrolet Spark EV. That tells you something.

You can't make this stuff up!

Here's hoping that Tesla discovers low pass filters soon.

My GF is the same way, she hates my AP

 

[NetworkNerd]

OMFG do we have the same wife? Had this talk like 5 times probably. But my wife added that she hate the sound of AP, it wakes up the kids in a long trip hah.

Same here - I can't use AP/TACC/EAP with anyone else in the car. Gets my wife car sick when it is on, and it does not make it a pleasant ride at all for any passenger.

 

[robdavmil]

I've adjusted the regen to the lower setting when on AP and NOA in the past. At least when it stops accelerating it's not as jerky. Hard to tell when it reduces acceleration or actually hits the brakes. On regular regen it's way too jerky to be called comfortable. My wife is nice to me, but I know she's uncomfortable, and with the 2019.32 update even I am uncomfortable. Seems like it took a step backwards IMO.

 

[NetworkNerd]

This is going to bake your noodle,

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I've adjusted the regen to the lower setting when on AP and NOA in the past. At least when it stops accelerating it's not as jerky.

I don't understand at all why this would make any difference. Presumably it slows exactly as much as it decides it needs to slow, using whatever means it has at its disposal. If not, I have no idea what Tesla is doing.

Not saying it doesn't happen...just can't see how it would make any sense. It really bakes my noodle.

 

[DrDabbles]

View attachment 455476

Somebody gets it, at least.

 

[Knightshade]

"Highways are numbered routes, designed to carry more traffic, greater distances with more controlled access points (driveways or side streets)."
"Limited Access - A highway or section of highway designed for travel by registered motor vehicles. Access is limited to intersections, and driveways are generally not allowed. Freeways are a common type of limited access highway."

Lemme help you with a source that is not wikipedia.

Limited-Access Highway Classification Codes

That's the federal definitions as revised in 2017

Secondary roads are main arteries that are not limited access, usually in the U.S. highway, state highway, or county highway systems. These roads have one or more lanes of traffic in each direction, may or may not be divided, and usually have at-grade intersections with many other roads and driveways

Note how it points out lots of highways are not limited access in the US?

(it also explains what limited access is further up in the link)

I have experience with only 3 vehicles with "TACC" - all have done better than my MS. There are many posts in this and other forums about how it is jerky and has phantom braking. And most replies do not argue against that fact

On the contrary- tons do. At least in the 3 forums.

There's a slew of posts about how "AP does this weird thing" and then some guys agreeing, and many others replying "Mine never does that"

For example I've had 0 cases ever, in over 10,000 miles on AP, of "phantom" braking where it slowed down with nothing on the road nearby.

But others report they have it happen all the time.

That analogy is pretty crazy...

Why? It's literally the same thing here.

But lets assume it only takes a Tesla programmer 10 minutes to install it. That, in my opinion, was 10 minutes that could have been spent working on way more important code to make TACC/EAP/FSD work better, safer and come to the market sooner.

So here we see you don't understand anything about how programming or AI works.

The guy who is adding a game to a UI menu has nothing to do with the operational parts of the TACC/EAP/FSD code.

It'd be like saying "Instead of polishing that floor at the hospital that janitor ought to be removing a tumor from someone".

Both guys work at the hospital, but they don't do each others jobs.

What the add-a-game guy would do with an extra 10 minutes would amount to "tweak the font used to display addresses in Nav" or something.

And since most programmers in CA aren't hourly anyway, he can still do both in the same day without setting anything back.

Any time spent on 'fun' stuff just pushes a delayed product out even further

Except it factually doesn't. So there's that.

Yes, I eat crow here. FSD was $3K, then went to $5K (and now $6K?). I thought the $5K price tag was always the same. As for FSD, it was coined as you said in late 2016 but the folks who bought in 2015 and early 2016 were told "autonomous driving" and "self- driving" would come with future software enhancements.

Well, again, no it wasn't, because it wasn't sold in 2015 or early 2016

The only thing Tesla sold was the single-camera autopilot that I can't find any promises of such a thing.

Here is one link where "autonomous driving" was discussed/promised in early 2015.

Did you read your own link?

Your link says he discussed an update that would let cars drive on major highways.

Which was autopilot.

Which cars from 2015 got.

Here's a link to to a news story about when they actually rolled out AP1, and what it actually did not what you claim it said it would do-

Tesla rolls out autopilot technology


Certainly they were intending to continue improving AP1 (and did for a while) but their partnership with Mobileye fell apart so they couldn't (like, literally could not as they didn't have full access to do so) go beyond a certain point.

And anytime I've seen AP1 "broken promises" come up people end up hard pressed to find much Tesla actual, specifically, and explicitly promised when they bought the feature that never got delivered.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Wife: "Why is it so jerky?"

Me: "Well, it can decelerate somewhat abruptly while on freeway interchanges..."

Wife: "It's not just around corners, it's all the time on the freeway; why do you use it if it is so bad?"

Me: "Well, I'm trying it out; I think maybe you notice less if you're driving"

Wife: "Well, I notice it. It's ok to try it out if you're the only one in the car, but it isn't cool to do it otherwise"

Me: ...

Wife: If you keep trying to use it, I'm going to stop riding in this car, and we're going to have to take my car*. It's not relaxing.

Me: <disengages Autopilot for remainder of trip>

<a couple minutes pass>

Wife: It's much smoother now. Did you turn it off?

Me: Yes, I did.

Wife: I'm much more relaxed now.


* My wife's car is a Chevrolet Spark EV. That tells you something.

You can't make this stuff up!

Here's hoping that Tesla discovers low pass filters soon.

It does drive like a bad driver, she's right. It drives like a poor taxi driver in NYC, hitting the accelerator and then slamming the brake. It sounds like you're probably a smooth driver (i.e. a good driver) and so she notices the difference (that's a compliment BTW). It's the same in stop/start traffic as well.

My wife notices the same thing, as do I, because I usually brake well ahead of time and gently, and usually accelerate gently when in traffic. That's before we even mention the phantom braking you get on the highway.