Things my wife said about Navigate on Autopilot tonight

[Big Dog]

Wife: "Why is it so jerky?"

Me: "Well, it can decelerate somewhat abruptly while on freeway interchanges..."

Wife: "It's not just around corners, it's all the time on the freeway; why do you use it if it is so bad?"

Me: "Well, I'm trying it out; I think maybe you notice less if you're driving"

Wife: "Well, I notice it. It's ok to try it out if you're the only one in the car, but it isn't cool to do it otherwise"

Me: ...

Wife: If you keep trying to use it, I'm going to stop riding in this car, and we're going to have to take my car*. It's not relaxing.

Me: <disengages Autopilot for remainder of trip>

<a couple minutes pass>

Wife: It's much smoother now. Did you turn it off?

Me: Yes, I did.

Wife: I'm much more relaxed now.


* My wife's car is a Chevrolet Spark EV. That tells you something.

You can't make this stuff up!

Here's hoping that Tesla discovers low pass filters soon.

Forget NoA, my wife doesn't like 'me' driving with EAP engaged.....if we are just cruising along and I turn off EAP to exit, the system beeps to let me know its off, but it also jars her awake: 'what was that? why did it beep?' (The beeps are annoying.)

Took my son and his new wife on a 2 hour car trip (mostly just using TACC since it was stop and go rush hour traffic) last month and they both car car sick in the back seat.

 

[scottf200]

I just don't understand what makes this so hard. My only hypothesis so far is that they have not figured out how to add filtering to "throttle" control without introducing unacceptable latency. I guess that is the safer engineering choice. Though as far as I can tell, other manufacturers (Toyota is my only reference point) have a lot more smoothing.

I would think they would/could tie it to the 'Calm' mode. I've heard people say it is but it does not seem to be any smoother when I'm in 'calm' mode (ie. when I have passengers and want it smoother).

 

[tvad]

+1
I hate, when passing, my car slows down as it tries to see what's in the other lane, then speeds up.

So happy (well...happy isn't the right word) to read that it wasn't just our car that exhibits this behavior. Every time the M3 does this, I immediately take control and accelerate...as the car behind in the lane into which we're merging comes barreling toward us.

What nearby drivers would expect a merging car to slow before passing?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What nearby drivers would expect a merging car to slow before passing?

Yeah, it's odd! I usually just keep my foot on the accelerator when the person behind is close enough that I think the car is going to freak out and slow down (it does seem to have some very strange logic in this regard). It does usually complete the lane change promptly when I do that, and keeping the foot on the accelerator avoids any jerkiness. Unfortunately this entirely defeats the purpose of Autopilot and creates a safety concern as it won't brake in that case.

 

[Big Dog]

I’ve been using AP and now NOA in my 3 for the past year. In that time I have seen significant improvements. I use it almost all the time on freeways, even on short trips. It is not perfect, and I keep at least one hand on the steering wheel and my eyes on the road, but I find that in general it works remarkably well. My wonderful spouse is usually okay with it though sometimes it alarms her.

In my opinion, passengers may be less comfortable with AP than drivers who are experienced with it because the passenger of course has no way to control the car and AP can sometimes make steering corrections that feel different to the passenger than corrections made by a human driver. That does not necessarily mean such corrections are unsafe; they are just different.

Humans resist change, and sometimes their perception of the change leads them to conclude that the change is a problem even when in reality it is simply different from what they are used to.

Those who expect AP to drive exactly like they would drive in every situation are operating under a mistaken assumption. There are plenty of lousy human drivers on the road who drift around in their lane and even cross the lane line, don’t signal, speed, tailgate, cut across multiple lanes, change lanes into other cars, and drive while talking/eating/fixing their hair. Yet a strong majority of drivers will, when asked, tell you that their driving skills are “above average”. They are operating under a delusion.

AP when used properly on controlled-access roads (e.g. freeways) is likely safer than most human drivers.

I welcome reasoned criticism of my point of view on this issue.

Yes, it is probably true that AP can be safer than many human drivers. That being said, there is stuff that a human driver would do and AP will not. For example, when other drivers are starting to drift into your lane, or at least start rolling over the Dot bots, a human driver will fade slightly away to maintain some distance between them. AP will not. Instead, it will remain dead-center between the lines even tho an 18 wheeler is starting to come awfully close to the passenger door.

Ditto crap/debris/tire tread in the lane. A human will try to avoid it. AP will roll right over the junk; as long as AP keeps the car dead-centered between the lines, AP is most happy.

 

[DrDabbles]

Pretty sure that will do absolutely nothing to change the behavior. The acceleration (actually jerk) issues here are far below the limits of chill mode. In other words, chill mode can be plenty jerky.

It doesn't. I've had people suggest it multiple times not realizing that I spend a third of the year in chill mode. It makes no difference at all. Autopilot isn't accelerating at 100%, so there's no reason it would make any difference. It's placebo at best, and this is why consumers performing QA is a truly awful idea.

 

[mswlogo]

Yeah. I think it depends largely on the accelerator habits of the driver in front, and I agree the exact behavior is hard to predict.

I wonder if this is something only the HW3 folks will ever get addressed. Not that it has anything to do with hardware limitations...

That’s and interesting thought but I doubt it’s the driver in front. And if it was TACC should know how to smooth it out.

Not sure if the variability I see is me noticing it or not. Maybe it’s worse at some speeds more than others or other cars nearby. Not sure. But I don’t notice all the time.

 

[Big Dog]

And if it was TACC should know how to smooth it out.

fwiw: I have a Apr-18 delivery, and TACC is much smother than it used to be. (I think they smoothed it late last summer.)

 

[mswlogo]

Yes, it is probably true that AP can be safer than many human drivers. That being said, there is stuff that a human driver would do and AP will not. For example, when other drivers are starting to drift into your lane, or at least start rolling over the Dot bots, a human driver will fade slightly away to maintain some distance between them. AP will not. Instead, it will remain dead-center between the lines even tho an 18 wheeler is starting to come awfully close to the passenger door.

Ditto crap/debris/tire tread in the lane. A human will try to avoid it. AP will roll right over the junk; as long as AP keeps the car dead-centered between the lines, AP is most happy.

Right even when an 18 wheeler is in his lane I might veer a little away. Another thing NoA/AP won’t do is pass or avoid a construction truck dropping small stones or something. I’ll either slow way down or pass them as fast as I can. So many things we do preemptively to reduce odds of a problem. Another one would be a deer prompting to dart across the road. Although that one might be Neural Net-able.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

And if it was TACC should know how to smooth it out.

You would think so. But I haven't seen any evidence of that.

To be clear, it can surge at other times as well, but my experiences on open freeway with no traffic to deal with have generally been pretty smooth. It's only when dealing with variable speed traffic that it decides to make apparent step changes in the acceleration.

 

[mswlogo]

You would think so. But I haven't seen any evidence of that.

To be clear, it can surge at other times as well, but my experiences on open freeway with no traffic to deal with have generally been pretty smooth. It's only when dealing with variable speed traffic that it decides to make apparent step changes in the acceleration.

Yes open highway is fine. Not sure what you mean by step changes. But what I notice is, it slightly speeds up a fraction, then slows a fraction, then up again. So subtle it’s hard to notice sometimes. It only happens if the car you’re following a is few mph slower than what you set. Maybe it’s switching between “following” and “cruising” on it's own. Because car slows down because it’s following to close. Then the car in front is beyond your number of car lengths and so it starts to speed up and then its in range again and sees its slower and slows down.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Not sure what you mean by step changes.

I believe what we feel is "jerk." Acceleration by itself is not that upsetting even if it's quite high (though this should be a total non-issue for TACC anyway except in emergencies). So, acceleration is always quite low in TACC. That's why chill mode has no effect.

What matters (I think) is the rate of change of acceleration. If it goes from constant speed (zero acceleration), to a positive acceleration (ramping velocity) very quickly, that's a step change in acceleration, even if the acceleration is not that high. There's a discontinuity in the function of acceleration vs. time. The rate of change of acceleration, or jerk, is extremely high (technically it could be nearly infinite).

Personally, I think that's what we feel and is the source of most of the TACC quality issues.

In addition, TACC is probably simply changing the acceleration too often, which makes it more susceptible to the sensation of jerk by the passengers.

Jerk (physics) - Wikipedia

'Even where occupant safety is not an issue, excessive jerk may result in an uncomfortable ride on elevators, trams, and the like; so engineers expend considerable design effort to minimize "jerky motion".'

'More skilled and experienced drivers can accelerate smoothly, but beginners often provide a jerky ride.'

Hmm...considerable design effort...not so sure.

 

[srs5694]

I've not tested this myself, but I've seen claims that increasing the following distance can reduce the jerkiness of AP operation. The drawback is that, particularly in some areas, this may result in drivers darting into the space between you and the car in front, which then causes your car to drop back. Wash, rinse, repeat. It might be worth trying, though, if you're dissatisfied with AP's jerkiness.

FWIW, my own observation is that AP is OK in light traffic and on relatively straight roads. I can't stand it going around curves, though; it's slow and hesitant, with jerky changes in speed. This also makes the NoAP highway interchange feature extremely frustrating. Since I don't trust the thing to change lanes without explicit approval from me, that mostly nixes the other big NoAP feature above plain-vanilla AP, so I rarely use NoAP. (I do try it out from time to time just to see if it's improved, though.) I suppose NoAP might be useful when driving an unfamiliar route; however, I know from experience that it sometimes wants to make unnecessary lane changes, so I don't really trust it to do a better job at that than me. Automatic lane changes (when directed) are apparently an FSD feature (in the current configuration), and I do use that feature. It's really the only FSD feature I use so far. (I did let my car auto-park once, and that worked fine, but usually there are enough gaps between cars where I park that auto-park doesn't pop up its activation button.)

My fiancé said last weekend, "I'd never buy one of these. You couldn't make me. It's so jerky and it's always making noise. I hate it."

So I disabled all the collision alerts, I had already disabled all the lane departure alerts a month ago, and I disabled all of the parking sensor warnings too. She absolutely can not stand to be in the car with AP enabled. It makes her motion sick almost immediately, and she complained it's too "jerky" as well. I don't disagree with her, I'm just used to it and know when to expect it to fail or misbehave.

You may have already thought of this, but you can create separate driver profiles so that you have all these features on (if you want them) when driving alone and disable them all at the touch of one button when your fiancé is in the car. I don't think you can change profiles while driving, though, so it'd be important you pick the correct profile before starting a drive.

 

[CAAD]

i really dont believe this is beyond them to make it smooth.
I recall early on when AP was just out TACC was very smooth in starting and stopping.
At the same time for some unknown reason AP was tolerable but became more and more jerky with each release.

 

[groovidad]

Wife: "Why is it so jerky?"

Me: "Well, it can decelerate somewhat abruptly while on freeway interchanges..."

Wife: "It's not just around corners, it's all the time on the freeway; why do you use it if it is so bad?"

Me: "Well, I'm trying it out; I think maybe you notice less if you're driving"

Wife: "Well, I notice it. It's ok to try it out if you're the only one in the car, but it isn't cool to do it otherwise"

Me: ...

Wife: If you keep trying to use it, I'm going to stop riding in this car, and we're going to have to take my car*. It's not relaxing.

Me: <disengages Autopilot for remainder of trip>

<a couple minutes pass>

Wife: It's much smoother now. Did you turn it off?

Me: Yes, I did.

Wife: I'm much more relaxed now.


* My wife's car is a Chevrolet Spark EV. That tells you something.

You can't make this stuff up!

Here's hoping that Tesla discovers low pass filters soon.

LOL! Brother, you’re not alone! I have an optional speed limiter in my 3 called “Wife Mode”. Sudden bursts of acceleration while responding to traffic situations engages “Wife Mode”. I’ve contacted our Tesla SC with a trouble ticket. They told me they couldn’t help, and recommended I “uninstall” myself. Unfortunately, the only way to disengage “Wife Mode” is to remove the front passenger and rear bench seats.

 

[Big Dog]

LOL! Brother, you’re not alone! I have an optional speed limiter in my 3 called “Wife Mode”. Sudden bursts of acceleration while responding to traffic situations engages “Wife Mode”. I’ve contacted our Tesla SC with a trouble ticket. They told me they couldn’t help, and recommended I “uninstall” myself. Unfortunately, the only way to disengage “Wife Mode” is to remove the front passenger and rear bench seat.

James Bond's Aston Martin had a solution for wife mode.

 

[Foxtrotter]

I believe what we feel is "jerk." Acceleration by itself is not that upsetting even if it's quite high (though this should be a total non-issue for TACC anyway except in emergencies). So, acceleration is always quite low in TACC. That's why chill mode has no effect.

What matters (I think) is the rate of change of acceleration. If it goes from constant speed (zero acceleration), to a positive acceleration (ramping velocity) very quickly, that's a step change in acceleration, even if the acceleration is not that high. There's a discontinuity in the function of acceleration vs. time. The rate of change of acceleration, or jerk, is extremely high (technically it could be nearly infinite).
.

I just don't understand all these complaints of jerkiness with TACC, AP, and NOA. We have almost 30,000 miles on our two cars and drive with TACC and AP all the time and NOA on more lightly traveled routes and times. We don't use chill, do use mad max. But I think the critical difference is that we normally use a 5 or 6 car follow distance even in heavy LA freeway traffic. Yes, people jump in but the car can deal with that better than having todeal with someone forcing in where there really is no gap. If it is set to 1 or 2 car lengths it is much less smooth. We never go there. And my wife sleeps with it on all the time when I'm driving. Our experience is that it's much smoother than our previous car with adaptive cruise and that it has improved a lot since we got the first one in April 18. As far as NOA, we use it on more rural freeway runs and it does well in the current iteration. The only time I've noticed it slowing when passing is when it has to change lanes to merge behind a slower vehicle to get to the lane it wants to be in for the upcoming exit. And it has gotten amazingly good at merging with traffic entering the freeway when its in the right lane.

Not to say that there are not many weaknesses as described by others above, but jerkiness is just not something that I've experienced under any traffic conditions aside from someone forcing their way into the lane we are in. And for my wife and I we both prefer to have the driver put it in AP.

 

[RayK]

LOL! Brother, you’re not alone! I have an optional speed limiter in my 3 called “Wife Mode”. Sudden bursts of acceleration while responding to traffic situations engages “Wife Mode”. I’ve contacted our Tesla SC with a trouble ticket. They told me they couldn’t help, and recommended I “uninstall” myself. Unfortunately, the only way to disengage “Wife Mode” is to remove the front passenger and rear bench seat.

Sounds exactly like my car! An automatic voice pops up and says, "You know it's xxx miles per hour here?" or "You're following too close." or "Why are you always driving in the fast lane?"

I've looked around the screen for a mute button but I've yet to find it.

<flamesuit on!>

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

But I think the critical difference is that we normally use a 5 or 6 car follow distance

I use following distance/time 6, typically.

heavy LA freeway traffic.

What do you think of its “chauffeur stops” in stop-and-go traffic? Just trying to get calibrated.

 

[tvad]

...we normally use a 5 or 6 car follow distance even in heavy LA freeway traffic.

Ah-ha! You're the one!

LOL.

We will try 5-6 car lengths and see how the M3 responds on LA freeways.