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Thinking about going solar for my business, totally new at this.

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A string inverter is just what it says. Its a string of solar panels connected one to another in series - connected to an inverter. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less.

Sure... kind of a semantic debate at this point... your points about the optimized inverter are valid. I just can't justify the added expense for simple systems.

Hopefully the optimizers get cheaper. I do like the idea of module level monitoring and MPPT...
 
Here are a few articles explain the differences between String Inverters and microinverters and optimizers.

Yeah... Solar edge is a best of both worlds solution. You get a slightly lower cost of string inverters with a solar edge system since the inverter is at the end of the string instead of on the roof combined with the module level MPPT of micro inverters.

Each optimized panel is independent on the MPPT level like with micros but you have the benefit of a central inverter.
 
Sure... kind of a semantic debate at this point... your points about the optimized inverter are valid. I just can't justify the added expense for simple systems.

Hopefully the optimizers get cheaper. I do like the idea of module level monitoring and MPPT...
The whole point concerning optimizers and micro-inverters is that the up front expense will fully surpass string inverters in energy generated.
Everyone installing microinverters and optimizers will generate/produce 1000X the energy of string inverters over a 20 year lifetime.

I'm glad you like the technology, however we absolutely must get our terms correct for the benefit of those who are making a choice as to which system to select.
 
I kinda press the 'magic' button on that one ;)

I can explain WHAT they do... but not HOW they do it.

It's kinda genius actually... in a panel string the current goes in and goes out MUST be equal. This is Kirchhoffs current law. The Max Power Point is based on light and will be slightly different for each panel. In a typical string the MPPT is 'averaged' leading to losses that can be as high as ~15%.

An 'optimized' string takes the MPPT point of each panel. The optimizers somehow talk to each other so that the string voltage is ALWAYS ~350v. 9-26 panels I believe is the number. 9 panels = 350v; 26 panels = 350v. Basically instead of voltage being progressively stepped up the solar edge 'magic' essentially steps up current AND voltage...

Clear as mud? :confused:

Youtube to the rescue....

Thanks for this... it's what I have found... but it doesn't explain how the "optimizers" work. If you want to manage voltage and current, you need to go DC-AC-DC which seems it should be more complicated than a microinverter.
 
The whole point concerning optimizers and micro-inverters is that the up front expense will fully surpass string inverters in energy generated.
Everyone installing microinverters and optimizers will generate/produce 1000X the energy of string inverters over a 20 year lifetime.

I'm glad you like the technology, however we absolutely must get our terms correct for the benefit of those who are making a choice as to which system to select.

Probably not gonna be ~1000x. Maaaaybe 1.15x ;)

But the terminology gets muddy... have you heard of the Trina Smart Panels? Does a string inverter with optimizers cease to be a string inverter? Mind-Blown :eek:


Basically Optimizers you can add to any inverter. Although using optimizers on a string inverter with integrated MPPT seems silly since you're paying for the MPPT electronics twice...

Thanks for this... it's what I have found... but it doesn't explain how the "optimizers" work. If you want to manage voltage and current, you need to go DC-AC-DC which seems it should be more complicated than a microinverter.

Not really... it's just boost-buck; think of how sophisticated a grid-tie inverter has to be... it's not just producing AC... it also needs to sync to the grid and match voltage/frequency. The cost is a dead give away. 300w micro is $250. 300w optimizer is ~$65.
 
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Probably not gonna be ~1000x. Maaaaybe 1.15x ;)

But the terminology gets muddy... have you heard of the Trina Smart Panels? Does a string inverter with optimizers cease to be a string inverter? Mind-Blown :eek:


Basically Optimizers you can add to any inverter. Although using optimizers on a string inverter with integrated MPPT seems silly since you're paying for the MPPT electronics twice...



Not really... it's just boost-buck; think of how sophisticated a grid-tie inverter has to be... it's not just producing AC... it also needs to sync to the grid and match voltage/frequency. The cost is a dead give away. 300w micro is $250. 300w optimizer is ~$65.
What? You can add any inverter?
No you can't.
You have to add the same inverter that makes your optimizer.

SolarEdge optimizers only talk to SolarEdge Inverters. They speak over the DC lines to the inverter.

Come on now. What are you saying?
 
Thanks for this... it's what I have found... but it doesn't explain how the "optimizers" work. If you want to manage voltage and current, you need to go DC-AC-DC which seems it should be more complicated than a microinverter.

Look. Let me make this simple.

The first step of an optimizer system install is to connect all of your optimizers in series on top of your roof. Of course that would mean that you have a positive DC and a negative DC line at the end of the optimizers. You run this line into your house to the inverter.

NOW connect each solar panel connects to its own optimizer. So... optimizers have 4 cables on them. ( 2 cables to connect to each other called the bus and 2 cables for its solar panel ). When the sun comes out the solar panel will deliver 12VDC to the optimizer. The optimizer will do 2 things.

It will convert the 12VDC to 350-450VDC.
Next: each will periodically tell the inverter how much current is being provided by its solar panel. The appetizer will communicate this information over the 350VDC- 420VDC line to the inverter.
More importantly: The optimizer will only place as much current on the bus as its panel provides. If I were to cover up one of my panels with plywood....the optimizer belonging to that panel won't put any current on the bus at all...and it will tell the optimizer that the panel isn't producing ANYTHING. That optimizer will just pass the current that's coming down the bus through itself to the next optimizer.

The inverter collects all of the information that is coming in from its optimizers and uploads that information to SolarEdges database. That's how we are able to monitor the performance of every one of my panels and to find out if an optimizer is functioning properly.

So... an optimizer has to have an inverter that understands the data that is being sent. All companies have their proprietary communication protocol. You can't mix and match optimizers and inverters.

I hope this helps.
 
-Compatible with any inverter.

Though probably just any MPPT string inverter. Solar edge inverters probably need to talk to their optimizers to turn on. So really almost all inverters...



That would be tricky... Trina doesn't make inverters ;)
I know all about Trina solar optimizers.......they aren't selling hardly any because no other inverter company will allow Trinas optimizers to work with their inverters as far as progress data is concerned. Trinas solution is worthless.

Let me not say worthless.....they will optimize and convert 12VDC into 350VDC, but they cant communicate their progress to the inverters ( which provides date for tracking websites).
 
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If you open my tracking website - click on the word Layout at the top.

Look at solar panel number 2.1.5 . Every day you will see that this panel is producing a little less than all of the others.

The optimizer is actually 2.1.5 not the solar panel. That panel is sitting next to my furnace vent on the roof and the vent blocks some of that panels sunlight. Optimizer 2.1.5 takes in all of the power that its solar panel will give it an then pass along all or the rest of the power on the bus that it receives.

So during this time of year each of my panels produce approx. 800 watts for an hour for the day. That's what 800wh's is.
 
Now if you choose you can equate that number to Charging a Tesla.

If you have a 100kwh battery in your Tesla, then to fully charge your car your panels would have to produce 100 thousand watt hours for the day.

My system only produced 50 thousand watt hours for the day today. Some days its a lot higher and some days its a lot lower.

Keep in mind that a 100kwh battery in a Tesla would get you 315 miles of travel....so would I need to produce 100kwh per day? NO... maybe 30kwh or so due to the number of miles I drive.
 
That couldn't be more wrong.

SolarEdge is the furthest away from a string inverter system than you can get.

Each panel works independently - Which is the total opposite than what a string inverter system does.

Where are you getting your information from?

With SolarEdge...you can have a fully covered panel without affecting any others that are in full sunlight.

Just look at my array.....Its proof. Click on the progress in my signature and look at my panels. I have live proof.

Seriously? I thought you said you installed one of these systems.

Do you remember older movies where the thieves would unscrew or shoot out one light bulb at the car lot, and the whole string went out?

Did you have those old strings of Christmas lights where when you plugged it in and nothing lit up you had to go down the string checking each bulb to find the one that was loose or broken?

Those are both called strings of lights because the lights are all hooked up in series - sharing the voltage across them all and having a common current flow.

This is also why we call it a string inverter - the solar panels are hooked in series to build up a big DC voltage.

In a Solar Edge system, the optimizers are all hooked in series instead of the panel outputs themselves. Still very much a string system, and if one optimizer gets disconnected from the string or fails open you lose the entire string, just like the light bulbs.

I thought I might have missed something, so I went to the Solar Edge website this morning. Here's their guide on the optimizers- notice how often the word string appears:

http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_application_fixed_string_voltage.pdf

This is the big difference from micro inverters, which are hooked together in parallel - like the lights in your living room and kitchen, where one bulb burns out and the rest are unaffected.
 
Microinverters are subjected to MORE heat. Unless you find a way to install them not on the roof under the array the ambient temperature under the panels regularly reaches ~70C. Even the hottest of garages rarely reach 40C. The 25 year warranty exists more out of necessity than longevity. If an inverter is mounted with a panel its warranty kinda has to match the panel. ~20+ year warranties are available for string inverters also.

Optimizers are much more robust since they only handle the MPPT function and not the DC-AC.

Unless you have complex shading issues or different angles it's far more cost effective to use a simple string inverter undersized by ~20%. String inverters run $0.30/w. Solaredge ~$0.40/w and micros ~$0.60/w.

Solar panels certainly get hot, and the 70C you quote wouldn't surprise me - on the surface of the panels.

For the space under the panels in the shade, it would surprise me very much.

Do you have a data source demonstrating those temperatures in free space underneath rooftop panels?

In any case, it seems I wasn't quite clear in my quick explanation. While thermal cycling of the device as a whole will certainly have some effect on longevity, I believe the biggest killer of electronics is usually when some parts heat up more than others, stretching their connections. This was the part of heating I was talking about.

A large microinverter running at peak output might have 10W of heat to dissipate, which it does passively through a metal shell heat sink.

A 5kW string inverter probably has at least 150W of heat to dissipate, and a lot of them use fans to dissipate it, leading to both the fan and blown in dust as failure issues.

Another common source of electronics failures is leading electrolytic capacitors - compact high power capacitors have a working fluid in them necessary to their operation, and when it leaks out the electronics depending on them fail.

Recent generation microinverters are able to do without electrolytic capacitors due to their low power levels.
 
Seriously? I thought you said you installed one of these systems.

Do you remember older movies where the thieves would unscrew or shoot out one light bulb at the car lot, and the whole string went out?

Did you have those old strings of Christmas lights where when you plugged it in and nothing lit up you had to go down the string checking each bulb to find the one that was loose or broken?

Those are both called strings of lights because the lights are all hooked up in series - sharing the voltage across them all and having a common current flow.

This is also why we call it a string inverter - the solar panels are hooked in series to build up a big DC voltage.

In a Solar Edge system, the optimizers are all hooked in series instead of the panel outputs themselves. Still very much a string system, and if one optimizer gets disconnected from the string or fails open you lose the entire string, just like the light bulbs.

I thought I might have missed something, so I went to the Solar Edge website this morning. Here's their guide on the optimizers- notice how often the word string appears:

http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_application_fixed_string_voltage.pdf

This is the big difference from micro inverters, which are hooked together in parallel - like the lights in your living room and kitchen, where one bulb burns out and the rest are unaffected.
Are you guys kidding me?

Panel to Panel is a string system. The Title of a system is determined by how the panels are connected together.

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Solar is getting away from "String" type inverting. In the solar world there is a clear distinction between a "STRING system and a Solar Edge type optimizer system" or an Enphase type micro-inverter system. Please read about it I'm providing a video in the next post.

String systems are impeded by the degradation of 1 panel. That's the definition of a string solar system. Is that a Solar Edge system? NO.

I am not counting words on a website. You are just trying to argue. A String Voltage in Solar Edge does not mean a String System. Geesh.

Do you have a system? Have you ever installed one? Check out mine- the one I installed. Please don't try to teach me about a solaredge system I have one. I installed it.
 
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Solar panels certainly get hot, and the 70C you quote wouldn't surprise me - on the surface of the panels.

For the space under the panels in the shade, it would surprise me very much.

Do you have a data source demonstrating those temperatures in free space underneath rooftop panels?

In any case, it seems I wasn't quite clear in my quick explanation. While thermal cycling of the device as a whole will certainly have some effect on longevity, I believe the biggest killer of electronics is usually when some parts heat up more than others, stretching their connections. This was the part of heating I was talking about.

A large microinverter running at peak output might have 10W of heat to dissipate, which it does passively through a metal shell heat sink.

A 5kW string inverter probably has at least 150W of heat to dissipate, and a lot of them use fans to dissipate it, leading to both the fan and blown in dust as failure issues.

Another common source of electronics failures is leading electrolytic capacitors - compact high power capacitors have a working fluid in them necessary to their operation, and when it leaks out the electronics depending on them fail.

Recent generation microinverters are able to do without electrolytic capacitors due to their low power levels.
If you guys want perfection out of solar systems....please don't get one.

If you want 100% efficiency out of solar systems...please don't get one.

Now.

If you want to not pay any electric bills and have your power generation to net $0. get one.

If you want your power company to provide you with a net metering check for over generation? get one.

If you want solar panels to shade your roof on hot sunny days and cause your AC system to work 1/2 as hard. get one.

If you want a no maintenance / no cleaning / 20 warrantied system to provide you with a return every day. get one.


Time out for all of the temperature readings and efficiency ratings. If you want one shop around and get one. The best source to learning something in my opinion is to ask somebody that its working for.

Feel free to check out my system in the link below. It's live. If you click on the Layout tab... and go back in the history of my system...I haven't replaced a thing in the last 4 years. You can even playback my system for up to 4 years if you like.
 
This is the big difference from micro inverters, which are hooked together in parallel - like the lights in your living room and kitchen, where one bulb burns out and the rest are unaffected.
Micro inverters are hooked together in parallel? Really? There is nothing parallel about anything related to a micro inverter or an optimizer.

Please read or watch this and educated yourself.

Micro Inverters vs. String Inverters - Complete Solar




I find it astounding how people who don't even have a system try to educate those who install them and own them.
 
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Micro inverters are hooked together in parallel? Really? There is nothing parallel about anything related to a micro inverter or an optimizer.

Please read or watch this and educated yourself.

Micro Inverters vs. String Inverters - Complete Solar



I find it astounding how people who don't even have a system try to educate those who install them and own them.

I find it astounding that you assume people don't have a system and then proceed from that assumption to make a factually incorrect argument.

Micro inverters are a parallel system. Every box is hooked to two separate A/C phases - the same two phases at each point along the system, the same voltage potential across one unit or across them all. Disconnecting one unit has no effect on the others.

Optimizers are a series system. The positive side of one optimizer is plugged into the negative side of the next, and the voltage across them all is equal to the sum of the voltage across each one. Disconnecting one unit leaves a break in the circuit and no connection for any of them.
 
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I find it astounding that you assume people don't have a system and then proceed from that assumption to make a factually incorrect argument.

Micro inverters are a parallel system. Every box is hooked to two separate A/C phases - the same two phases at each point along the system, the same voltage potential across one unit or across them all. Disconnecting one unit has no effect on the others.

Optimizers are a series system. The positive side of one optimizer is plugged into the negative side of the next, and the voltage across them all is equal to the sum of the voltage across each one. Disconnecting one unit leaves a break on the circuit and no connection for any on of them.
People who have systems and/or have been educated about them don't make statements as you have. So, my comments are not assumptions.

Everyone.

For those trying to make a decision about which system/concept to look into... please watch the posted video. I installed and have SolarEdge on my roof. However if you would like me to assist you with either of the other 2 I'm willing. I will also assist you with rebate programs for your state as well as federal incentive programs. I can also help you establish your interconnection agreement with your local provider if you wish. I don't charge anything because I'm just that concerned about renewables that I believe help save our planet from pollution and the like.

The video I posted is worth a thousand words. It is the simplest and most concise video I can find to explain all 3 systems.

1. String Inverter (older)
2. Micro-inverter (newer)
3. Optimizer (newest)

 
People who have systems and/or have been educated about them don't make statements as you have. So, my comments are not assumptions.

Everyone.

For those trying to make a decision about which system/concept to look into... please watch the posted video. I installed and have SolarEdge on my roof. However if you would like me to assist you with either of the other 2 I'm willing. I will also assist you with rebate programs for your state as well as federal incentive programs. I can also help you establish your interconnection agreement with your local provider if you wish. I don't charge anything because I'm just that concerned about renewables that I believe help save our planet from pollution and the like.

The video I posted is worth a thousand words. It is the simplest and most concise video I can find to explain all 3 systems.

1. String Inverter (older)
2. Micro-inverter (newer)
3. Optimizer (newest)


Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinions.

For your general information, I made a detailed study of all three options before putting 4.6kW of microinverters on my garage roof several years ago - because in my opinion the greater reliability, better information, and reduced safety risks were worth the extra money.

I'm a little confused by your statements though. In one of your posts early this morning you specifically said that the optimizers are hooked together in series, giving you a DC positive and DC negative.

Then you went on to say that each optimizer was generating 350V DC on its own - which would require them to be hooked in parallel if you aren't going to get thousands of volts at the end.

Being connected in series is my whole point - it means the voltage is additive and the current constant, whereas the parallel microinverter setup means a constant voltage and additive current.

Series also means any bad connection between optimizers drops the whole system, whereas a bad connection only affects the microinverter it is connected to (unless the parallel wire itself is cut of course.)

Walter