Thinking of trading my X for a Y, but V.O. concerns me!

[jcanoe]

Yea! I want the car to be BETTER than me... if it can see through walls all the better!

Phantom braking is a vision issue, not radar. It happens on vision only cars and NOT on radar cars outside of Tesla.

My 2017 Chevrolet Volt with radar adaptive cruise control would on occasion exhibit phantom braking. The Volt integrated data from the forward cameras and the radar. Phantom braking could occur when driving under an overpass with rapid transition and contrast of light and dark. The other times that I experienced phantom braking was on the highway and approaching an overhead sign. Depending on the grade of the road (rising or descending) the radar reflection from the sign or sign support could briefly trigger the phantom braking and an audible and visual forward collision warning alert.

 

[Donncha]

I've been reading the posts (of which there are many!) about Vision-Only MY's. I am a huge fan of EAP/FSD, and use it daily. I will state that while many of you experience "phantom braking", I rarely have that issue. I've got dozens of thousands of miles using AP and NoAP, and can state that I truly love this feature! Upon reading other's experiences, I feel like I must be very lucky. This is not to say that I have not had issues... I certainly have. However, I am always at the ready, and am always visually aware as to the type of things that I believe make my AP react in a more different, or uncomfortable, way than I would if I wasn't on AP.

I admittedly know little about the components that make AP work, but I believe my model/build has radar as part of the process. I haven't been on this forum for a few months, and seeing this "Vision Only" bunch of threads has me thinking "Is this an option when purchasing an MY, or is there a way to be sure the model I build has radar?"

This is a question I asked of the salesperson with which I was dealing. I got a 'non-answer'... so I turn to this forum for help. What I was told, was: "all Y's come with radar, it's just disabled at the moment" - to - "they have discontinued installing radar, as the vision-only version is better". These are two distinctly different answers.

I've had such great luck with my X's AP (with radar?) that I am now hesitating getting a new Y without radar.

If you're wondering "why the heck would he trade his car that he's had almost zero problems with?!?"... The simple answer is 'retirement'. We will be moving in to one of our condos that has underground parking with individual dedicated charging in the parking space. Being a new building, it's quite tight in said garage, and my wife is afraid she'll hit a barrier and ruin "my baby". The Y is ever-so-slightly smaller overall, and we've determined that it will be easier for her to park.

Phantom braking (and other issues) with VO is real. I have 3 incidents to report on the last 2 days.

First, driving at night a deer jumped in front of my car. Luckily I was being observant and did a panic stop. Somehow I missed the deer but only by inches. From the video it looks like he's sitting on the hood. I have forward collision warning set to late but got no indication from the car of internment danger.

Second, the next day in broad daylight I was on a 4 lane highway in the passing lane. A truck pulling a small boat was about 10 car lengths ahead and I had just overtaken a car (about 2 lengths behind) in the right lane. While going about 65 for no reason the alarm beeps and the brakes are fully applied. I allowed down so fast the car in the right lane looked like a dragster. Since then I've turned off automatic emergency braking.

Third, today I was on a 2 lane road going about 45 when the warning beep sounded and the steering wheel turned right then left. The message said something about emergency steering applied. Again, there was no reason for this. Looking at the video all I see is possibly it didn't detect a lane market on the shoulder.

Needless to say I'm pissed. I've only had this car for 4 months and ready to dump it. I can't wait for more EV competition

 

[Brian's ReX]

Phantom braking (and other issues) with VO is real. I have 3 incidents to report on the last 2 days.

First, driving at night a deer jumped in front of my car. Luckily I was being observant and did a panic stop. Somehow I missed the deer but only by inches. From the video it looks like he's sitting on the hood. I have forward collision warning set to late but got no indication from the car of internment danger.

Second, the next day in broad daylight I was on a 4 lane highway in the passing lane. A truck pulling a small boat was about 10 car lengths ahead and I had just overtaken a car (about 2 lengths behind) in the right lane. While going about 65 for no reason the alarm beeps and the brakes are fully applied. I allowed down so fast the car in the right lane looked like a dragster. Since then I've turned off automatic emergency braking.

Third, today I was on a 2 lane road going about 45 when the warning beep sounded and the steering wheel turned right then left. The message said something about emergency steering applied. Again, there was no reason for this. Looking at the video all I see is possibly it didn't detect a lane market on the shoulder.

Needless to say I'm pissed. I've only had this car for 4 months and ready to dump it. I can't wait for more EV competition

That does suck! I'd be discouraged too! Did you do a Bug Report when these things happened? I've had so few (knocking on wood), but when they happen, I immediately file a Bug Report.

 

[thinktwice]

Phantom braking (and other issues) with VO is real. I have 3 incidents to report on the last 2 days.

First, driving at night a deer jumped in front of my car. Luckily I was being observant and did a panic stop. Somehow I missed the deer but only by inches. From the video it looks like he's sitting on the hood. I have forward collision warning set to late but got no indication from the car of internment danger.

Second, the next day in broad daylight I was on a 4 lane highway in the passing lane. A truck pulling a small boat was about 10 car lengths ahead and I had just overtaken a car (about 2 lengths behind) in the right lane. While going about 65 for no reason the alarm beeps and the brakes are fully applied. I allowed down so fast the car in the right lane looked like a dragster. Since then I've turned off automatic emergency braking.

Third, today I was on a 2 lane road going about 45 when the warning beep sounded and the steering wheel turned right then left. The message said something about emergency steering applied. Again, there was no reason for this. Looking at the video all I see is possibly it didn't detect a lane market on the shoulder.

Needless to say I'm pissed. I've only had this car for 4 months and ready to dump it. I can't wait for more EV competition

Phantom braking has been a problem even before VO, so probably not fair to attribute this only to VO. Reality is its more of a confused AI issue than anything. Some drivers report constant phantom braking issues while others have never experienced it (myself included). This is the tradeoff we all accept for being early adopters. One day the AI will be much more refined and reliable.

 

[avs007]

Phantom braking is a vision issue, not radar. It happens on vision only cars and NOT on radar cars outside of Tesla.

100% false;
Radar IS the cause of phantom braking in many scenarios, on radar equipped cars. There is a reason why on those cars, it explicitly states in the manual that radar will only track objects with relative motion > 3mph. It's because radar has a terrible time with stationary objects, because it doesn't know where the object is in relation to the lane markers.

Disclaimers: I worked in a group in the past doing 3D object tracking, and worked with vision, radar, lidar, ultrasonic, etc. I also have 2 radar equipped non-teslas that phantom brake. There is even one section of road, where my radar equipped cars phantom brake 100% of the time, and my VO MY does NOT phantom brake. It's easy to see why, when you see the road. There is a giant light post at just the right spot of a curve, so that radar thinks you are going to hit the light post, but vision can determine that it is outside your lane markers.

 

[avs007]

On a side note, there were a few places that I've noticed that my Y has the speed limit completely wrong. I found one section on a state highway, where when I pass a particular point, it thinks the speed limit is 25, when it is in fact 60. Then about 1/2 mile later, it correctly adjusts back to 60... There are no speed limit signs of any kind in this particular area, so I have no idea why it always thinks it drops to 25.

 

[Brian's ReX]

On a side note, there were a few places that I've noticed that my Y has the speed limit completely wrong. I found one section on a state highway, where when I pass a particular point, it thinks the speed limit is 25, when it is in fact 60. Then about 1/2 mile later, it correctly adjusts back to 60... There are no speed limit signs of any kind in this particular area, so I have no idea why it always thinks it drops to 25.

Interesting! Does it drastically slow down (brake), or is it just an area that the display-only gets wrong?

 

[avs007]

Interesting! Does it drastically slow down (brake), or is it just an area that the display-only gets wrong?

Luckily, the car knows I'm still on the freeway, so it does NOT brake... I only realized the discrepancy because I recently turned on the speed limit warning chime for 10+.... However, if the car thought it was a surface street, it is my understanding that AP would brake to slow down to the "new" speed limit. I'll have to take my other car out there, to see if it thinks the speed limit is also 25, since that car also tells me speed limits on it's built in nav system. Then I can figure out if it's bad data, or if it's something the camera in the Y thinks is a speed limit sign...

I noticed the other day with my Y, that it does NOT read advisory speeds correctly... There's a section of freeway around here, where there is an electronic sign over each lane, that shows advisory speeds, in case of traffic... I noticed a few times, the Tesla thought these were actual speed limit signs, and adjusted the speed limit on the display, even tho the electronic sign said "advisory", and was yellow. It only did this a few times tho..... However on a different section of freeway in another city, that has variable speed limits, with electronic signs over each lane, that are actually white... It did also adjust the speed limit according to those signs... At the time, each lane had the same speed designation, so I have not determined yet if it will correctly read the speed limit for the lane I'm in or not...

 

[avs007]

Interesting! Does it drastically slow down (brake), or is it just an area that the display-only gets wrong?

By the way, I notice you are in Seattle... Those variable speed limit signs I'm referring to are the ones on the 5, if you are south of Seattle going north, before the express lanes open. When I was going thru there, the speed limit in each lane was like 45 or something like that, and the Y updated to 45... But I have gone thru there before when the left two lanes were different than the right lanes, but I wasn't in the Y at the time, so I don't know if it would update with only the sign for the lane I'm in...

 

[Brian's ReX]

By the way, I notice you are in Seattle... Those variable speed limit signs I'm referring to are the ones on the 5, if you are south of Seattle going north, before the express lanes open. When I was going thru there, the speed limit in each lane was like 45 or something like that, and the Y updated to 45... But I have gone thru there before when the left two lanes were different than the right lanes, but I wasn't in the Y at the time, so I don't know if it would update with only the sign for the lane I'm in...

I have driven that stretch, and don't recall my X (radar equipped, if that matters in this case... probably not ) ever reacting. However, I don't have the chime active, as I... er... "the car"... routinely drives 10+ over .

Next time I drive that stretch, and they're actually LIT (seems the powers-that-be found we Seattleites rarely obey Limit Signs , so they are off quite often)... I'll check to see if the indicated Speed Limit in my display changes at all. Now I'm curious!

I don't know how prolific these 'lane speed markers', or whatever these signs are called, are around the country - or the world, for that matter... so not sure Tesla will spend much time trying to program these into the system.

 

[avs007]

I have driven that stretch, and don't recall my X (radar equipped, if that matters in this case... probably not ) ever reacting. However, I don't have the chime active, as I... er... "the car"... routinely drives 10+ over .

Next time I drive that stretch, and they're actually LIT (seems the powers-that-be found we Seattleites rarely obey Limit Signs , so they are off quite often)... I'll check to see if the indicated Speed Limit in my display changes at all. Now I'm curious!

I don't know how prolific these 'lane speed markers', or whatever these signs are called, are around the country - or the world, for that matter... so not sure Tesla will spend much time trying to program these into the system.

Lol, I only enabled the chime, because I'm used to it in Waze, since the state patrol in my area are anal... But for whatever reason, the Tesla chime annoys the F out of me, because if I teter totter the threshold it bongs over and over... Waze doesn't do that...

As for as how prolific they are... I know in Asia they are very common, but they also have many many fixed mounted photo-radar usually not far after those variable speed limit signs.... Inside the US tho, other than WA, I think I remember seeing them in the Maryland/DC area.

 

[Donncha]

On a side note, there were a few places that I've noticed that my Y has the speed limit completely wrong. I found one section on a state highway, where when I pass a particular point, it thinks the speed limit is 25, when it is in fact 60. Then about 1/2 mile later, it correctly adjusts back to 60... There are no speed limit signs of any kind in this particular area, so I have no idea why it always thinks it drops to 25.

Does it have a route 25 sign? In MD the route signs are white squares and mine would go back and forth on route 30. I haven't checked on the latest software

 

[Donncha]

That does suck! I'd be discouraged too! Did you do a Bug Report when these things happened? I've had so few (knocking on wood), but when they happen, I immediately file a Bug Report.

Where do you file a bug report?

 

[Brian's ReX]

Where do you file a bug report?

When a situation happens that you want Tesla to review, you immediately push your voice control button on the steering wheel and start by saying "Bug Report"... immediately followed by a succinct explanation of what you feel is a 'bug'.

For instance: I had a regular area on I-5 that had an HOV offramp on the left side of the freeway. Every time I passed this offramp, my X would 'assume' I was taking the offramp and start decelerating as if I was getting off the freeway - even though I was still heading in the HOV lane at full speed (maybe plus a few ). When this happened, I would hit the voice command and say "Bug Report unsafe braking at this location".

It took 2 updates (I'm sure Tesla has to go over many Bug Reports), but now this area never causes unsafe slowdowns in the left HOV lane.

It took me a while to learn how to Bug Report because I would always pause after saying "Bug Report" - waiting for further instructions. This is not the correct way to file the report... you simply state everything as if it is in the same sentence. In many cases, I have to pre-think how I am going to talk before hitting the voice command button so I can say everything without pause.

Your screen will show you that the bug report was received by giving you a message and a thumbs down. It's been a while, but I think the message is "Thank you for your input", or some such....

If you don't get that message, probably best to try again. To say "Bug Report dangerous braking for no reason in this area" with no pause is somewhat unnatural to me. But that's what it takes.

Hope this helps!

 

[avs007]

Does it have a route 25 sign? In MD the route signs are white squares and mine would go back and forth on route 30. I haven't checked on the latest software

Nope... Over here, state route signs are in the shape of George Washington's Head.... But where the thing switches to 25mph, there are no signs at all.... There may be one on the adjacent exit, I can't remember, but that exit is a freeway interchange with an interstate, so I'm pretty sure it would not be 25mph.

 

[Tha_Ape]

100% false;
Radar IS the cause of phantom braking in many scenarios, on radar equipped cars. There is a reason why on those cars, it explicitly states in the manual that radar will only track objects with relative motion > 3mph. It's because radar has a terrible time with stationary objects, because it doesn't know where the object is in relation to the lane markers.

Disclaimers: I worked in a group in the past doing 3D object tracking, and worked with vision, radar, lidar, ultrasonic, etc. I also have 2 radar equipped non-teslas that phantom brake. There is even one section of road, where my radar equipped cars phantom brake 100% of the time, and my VO MY does NOT phantom brake. It's easy to see why, when you see the road. There is a giant light post at just the right spot of a curve, so that radar thinks you are going to hit the light post, but vision can determine that it is outside your lane markers.

Why does it happen in VO cars then? A simple google search will show you that while you may not have phantom braking events on your VO Tesla, many others do. When you widen the sample, you'll see it happens without radar.

Discalimers: I have multiple non-tesla radar cars that do not phantom brake.

 

[avs007]

Why does it happen in VO cars then? A simple google search will show you that while you may not have phantom braking events on your VO Tesla, many others do. When you widen the sample, you'll see it happens without radar.

Discalimers: I have multiple non-tesla radar cars that do not phantom brake.

I wasn't saying the VO cars don't phantom brake. I was saying that having Radar is not a panacea that will prevent phantom braking, because I was illustrating how Radar can cause phantom braking.

 

[avs007]

A simple google search will show you that while you may not have phantom braking events on your VO Tesla, many others do. When you widen the sample, you'll see it happens without radar.

Says the person that originally claimed that non-Tesla radar cars don't phantom brake, lol.... Hypocrite much?

 

[jcanoe]

My 2020 LRMY would exhibit phantom breaking in autumn. Early and late in the day the sun shines through the trees and the remaining leaves on the branches create moving shadows on the windshield (kept clean BTW.) I stopped using Autopilot in the early morning and late afternoon on heavily treed streets.

 

[Donncha]

When a situation happens that you want Tesla to review, you immediately push your voice control button on the steering wheel and start by saying "Bug Report"... immediately followed by a succinct explanation of what you feel is a 'bug'.

For instance: I had a regular area on I-5 that had an HOV offramp on the left side of the freeway. Every time I passed this offramp, my X would 'assume' I was taking the offramp and start decelerating as if I was getting off the freeway - even though I was still heading in the HOV lane at full speed (maybe plus a few ). When this happened, I would hit the voice command and say "Bug Report unsafe braking at this location".

It took 2 updates (I'm sure Tesla has to go over many Bug Reports), but now this area never causes unsafe slowdowns in the left HOV lane.

It took me a while to learn how to Bug Report because I would always pause after saying "Bug Report" - waiting for further instructions. This is not the correct way to file the report... you simply state everything as if it is in the same sentence. In many cases, I have to pre-think how I am going to talk before hitting the voice command button so I can say everything without pause.

Your screen will show you that the bug report was received by giving you a message and a thumbs down. It's been a while, but I think the message is "Thank you for your input", or some such....

If you don't get that message, probably best to try again. To say "Bug Report dangerous braking for no reason in this area" with no pause is somewhat unnatural to me. But that's what it takes.

Hope this helps!

Thanks that helps