Third party battery like fox ess

[giran99]

Anyone has any experience with third-party battery / storage installation solution with the existing Tesla solar system (12kw panels with 7.6kw inverter) Main goal is to charge in the daytime and use it at nighttime for basic use. I cannot get Powerwal until 2023 end. Looking for plug-in place system.
Even willing to pay if someone can help around Boston area.

 

[holeydonut]

I think you could check out Enphase Encharge. This is based on anecdotes here on TMC and my having seen two Encharge systems deployed in homes near me. The Encharge 10 has similar functionality of the core Powerwall features.

Where they differ seems more on the control/software side. Tesla recently deployed advanced features are better than Enphase. But if you're a loser like me with no access to the Tesla Powerwall advanced features... then my Powerwall system is almost operationally identical to an Enphase system.

You can also ping users @sunwarriors and @lavalamp425 about their Enphase systems.

Here are some other home ESS options (my list may be outdated).

Enphase Encharge 10T is 3.84 kW, 9.7 kWh
Fortress eVault (Sol Ark 12k) is 8.9 kW, 17.8 kWh (and comes with casters do you can wheel it around!)
Generac PWRCell IR/OR M6 is 6.7 kW and 17.3 kWh
LG Chem StorEdge 7600A is 4.6 kW and 16.8 kWh
POMCube PNZ is 12.5 kW and 18.5 kWh
Sonnen EcoLinx gen 1.5 is 7 kW and 18.5 kWh
SunPower SunVault 26 is 6 kW and 22.9 kWh

 

[giran99]

I think you could check out Enphase Encharge. This is based on anecdotes here on TMC and my having seen two Encharge systems deployed in homes near me. The Encharge 10 has similar functionality of the core Powerwall features.

Where they differ seems more on the control/software side. Tesla recently deployed advanced features are better than Enphase. But if you're a loser like me with no access to the Tesla Powerwall advanced features... then my Powerwall system is almost operationally identical to an Enphase system.

You can also ping users @sunwarriors and @lavalamp425 about their Enphase systems.

Here are some other home ESS options (my list may be outdated).

Enphase Encharge 10T is 3.84 kW, 9.7 kWh
Fortress eVault (Sol Ark 12k) is 8.9 kW, 17.8 kWh (and comes with casters do you can wheel it around!)
Generac PWRCell IR/OR M6 is 6.7 kW and 17.3 kWh
LG Chem StorEdge 7600A is 4.6 kW and 16.8 kWh
POMCube PNZ is 12.5 kW and 18.5 kWh
Sonnen EcoLinx gen 1.5 is 7 kW and 18.5 kWh
SunPower SunVault 26 is 6 kW and 22.9 kWh

thanks. thats good info. i will check this out

 

[sunwarriors]

Not familiar with all of those, but I would avoid LG since they've had recalls on their batteries (maybe google and do your own research) and I've only read mostly bad things about that one. My installer hates LG as well.

I mentioned it before, but the main reason I went with Enphase was that it wasn't possible to get powerwalls earlier (last year timeframe) due to their backlog and Enphase is LFP chemistry. Newer benefit of the newer IQ 10 batteries is that they are a LOT thinner now (sorta like powerwalls) so they don't stick out as much if you need it in a garage where you don't want your car to hit it (mine are the fat ones). It's also modular so the IQ 10 is actually 3x IQ3 batteries so you can scale up slower if needed and has some redundancy if 1 battery is bad (I've had bad ones during my install)..

I also think Enphase is a "bigger" vendor so there are probably a lot more installs out there compared to some others and they have an option to hookup with a generator (to charge your batteries). I think Ark is very big with DIY folks.

 

[holeydonut]

Not familiar with all of those, but I would avoid LG since they've had recalls on their batteries (maybe google and do your own research) and I've only read mostly bad things about that one. My installer hates LG as well.

I mentioned it before, but the main reason I went with Enphase was that it wasn't possible to get powerwalls earlier (last year timeframe) due to their backlog and Enphase is LFP chemistry. Newer benefit of the newer IQ 10 batteries is that they are a LOT thinner now (sorta like powerwalls) so they don't stick out as much if you need it in a garage where you don't want your car to hit it (mine are the fat ones). It's also modular so the IQ 10 is actually 3x IQ3 batteries so you can scale up slower if needed and has some redundancy if 1 battery is bad (I've had bad ones during my install)..

I also think Enphase is a "bigger" vendor so there are probably a lot more installs out there compared to some others and they have an option to hookup with a generator (to charge your batteries). I think Ark is very big with DIY folks.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that extra benefit of Enphase. Their system seems to be the only one that allows someone to install a mondo propane or diesel generator up and run alongside the solar + batteries in the winter-time when there isn't enough solar.

Basically a way to go off-grid entirely if you had enough imported liquid dino-farts to keep your house warm/powered when there isn't enough sun (not sure if California Rule 21 allows it or whatever ya'll have in Massachusetts)

 

[giran99]

Not familiar with all of those, but I would avoid LG since they've had recalls on their batteries (maybe google and do your own research) and I've only read mostly bad things about that one. My installer hates LG as well.

I mentioned it before, but the main reason I went with Enphase was that it wasn't possible to get powerwalls earlier (last year timeframe) due to their backlog and Enphase is LFP chemistry. Newer benefit of the newer IQ 10 batteries is that they are a LOT thinner now (sorta like powerwalls) so they don't stick out as much if you need it in a garage where you don't want your car to hit it (mine are the fat ones). It's also modular so the IQ 10 is actually 3x IQ3 batteries so you can scale up slower if needed and has some redundancy if 1 battery is bad (I've had bad ones during my install)..

I also think Enphase is a "bigger" vendor so there are probably a lot more installs out there compared to some others and they have an option to hookup with a generator (to charge your batteries). I think Ark is very big with DIY folks.

Thanks. i just contact Enphase yesterday. how is there price compare to Powerwall .

 

[sunwarriors]

Thanks. i just contact Enphase yesterday. how is there price compare to Powerwall .

No one can compete with Tesla directly on price so if you are purely shopping based on price, it's a losing battle. For me, PWs and Enphase were pretty much the same price if you used independent installers. That was last year though and as everyone has posted, prices have gone up a lot for everything (Tesla solar included).

The LFP chemistry alone (after doing research) made me prefer that chemistry vs. PWs. Per all my posts, I'm pretty much a fan of Enphase so know that I maybe biased as well for my own reasons/needs. The generator option that's available now is also added flexibility if you wanted to have another option to deflect IOU abuse.

If your solar uses a DC/solaredge combiner and not microinverters, switching to Enphase may need a replacement of lots of pieces though.

 

[holeydonut]

No one can compete with Tesla directly on price so if you are purely shopping based on price, it's a losing battle. For me, PWs and Enphase were pretty much the same price if you used independent installers. That was last year though and as everyone has posted, prices have gone up a lot for everything (Tesla solar included).

The LFP chemistry alone (after doing research) made me prefer that chemistry vs. PWs. Per all my posts, I'm pretty much a fan of Enphase so know that I maybe biased as well for my own reasons/needs. The generator option that's available now is also added flexibility if you wanted to have another option to deflect IOU abuse.

If your solar uses a DC/solaredge combiner and not microinverters, switching to Enphase may need a replacement of lots of pieces though.

Yeah, my favorite part about this TMC Energy sub is it's not exclusive to Tesla products. Really glad to learn about your positive experience with Enphase!

Regarding your last point; an acquaintance had a SolarCity install in 2018 that had a SolarEdge inverter. He wanted to add ESS, but Tesla wouldn't do a Powerwall only system; he ended up going with Enphase. Even though the Enphase Encharge system is also AC coupled just like a Tesla Powerwall, he could not rig up the SolarEdge inverter as the AC input to his Enphase Empower / Encharge system.

He had to replace the SolarEdge with Enphase IQ7 micros, and run the AC solar generation through an Enphase Envoy. This added extra costs, but it was worth it to him to get ESS ASAP due to how often he got PSPS'd.

About the general costs from a brand new system ... when I was shopping for my system in 2019, many local ESS installers swore up and down that AC coupled systems like Tesla and Enphase were bad. They were pushing the DC-coupled approach (where both solar DC and battery DC is modulated through one AC inverter to get to the home). So costing things out, these Generac / LG DC systems were slightly cheaper (like about 5%) than Tesla and Enphase at the time just because of the reduced AC part complexity. Personally, I didn't like this approach since I feel if there's a failure of the inverter, it'd take the entire system offline.

 

[sunwarriors]

About the general costs from a brand new system ... when I was shopping for my system in 2019, many local ESS installers swore up and down that AC coupled systems like Tesla and Enphase were bad. They were pushing the DC-coupled approach (where both solar DC and battery DC is modulated through one AC inverter to get to the home). So costing things out, these Generac / LG DC systems were slightly cheaper (like about 5%) than Tesla and Enphase at the time just because of the reduced AC part complexity. Personally, I didn't like this approach since I feel if there's a failure of the inverter, it'd take the entire system offline.

Yeah, the cost difference is honestly so minimal I felt that not having a single point of failure and waiting for someone to send you a whole new SolarEdge part and waiting weeks/month (there are posts here) made me not want to go that route. I think the warranty is also 10 years on that box? Same goes for string vs. micro debate.

As mentioned, I've had bad batteries before (new install times causing delays/issues) and having 1 battery down vs. 3 is acceptable.

There is also the whole efficiency debate I see posted all over on reddit/other posts of converting from DC/AC and back and forth and AC Coupled isn't as efficient, but my feel and experience so far is if it's even half sunny, my batter hits 100% in like 3 hours and sits there for pretty much the rest of the day so I still go into the night at 100% all the time. I'm in So Cal though so we get a lot more sun.

 

[BGbreeder]

Personally, as the point of my particular installation was reliability, there was no way I was going to use one or two inverters for my PV system (single point failure risk). I would point out that the warranty on the Enphase inverters is much, much longer. (25 years) That said, I do wish that Tesla Powerwalls had better generator support.

All the best,

BG

 

[holeydonut]

Personally, as the point of my particular installation was reliability, there was no way I was going to use one or two inverters for my PV system (single point failure risk). I would point out that the warranty on the Enphase inverters is much, much longer. (25 years) That said, I do wish that Tesla Powerwalls had better generator support.

All the best,

BG

Has anyone ever tried to land a 5 kW AC generator on the Tesla Gateway generation panel and meter the incoming current with a CT to basically trick the Gateway into thinking it's solar generation? Or would the generator's output be the wrong voltage/frequency to mimic solar production?

 

[miimura]

Has anyone ever tried to land a 5 kW AC generator on the Tesla Gateway generation panel and meter the incoming current with a CT to basically trick the Gateway into thinking it's solar generation? Or would the generator's output be the wrong voltage/frequency to mimic solar production?

The best way to do this is to either use an inverter generator that will synchronize to a micro-grid (which I've never actually seen) or to rectify the generator AC output to DC and run it through a solar grid-tied inverter to make it look like solar generation.

 

[Vines]

The best way to do this is to either use an inverter generator that will synchronize to a micro-grid (which I've never actually seen) or to rectify the generator AC output to DC and run it through a solar grid-tied inverter to make it look like solar generation.

The funny part is that if the system was Off Grid, then Tesla could easily have the generator charge the Powerwalls. I think it is a moral decision not a technical one.

Technically you could just tell the GW2 that it is off grid, and then use a 2 position transfer switch to change from grid feed to generator feed. Tesla allows charging from a generator when there is no grid connection at all, so it is possible but charging from a generator is at their mercy.

 

[h2ofun]

The funny part is that if the system was Off Grid, then Tesla could easily have the generator charge the Powerwalls. I think it is a moral decision not a technical one.

Technically you could just tell the GW2 that it is off grid, and then use a 2 position transfer switch to change from grid feed to generator feed. Tesla allows charging from a generator when there is no grid connection at all, so it is possible but charging from a generator is at their mercy.

Just like grid charging

 

[Vines]

The OP needs a system and I honestly recommend waiting or find another top-tier supplier. Really a home ESS is a big step and could go sideways if you choose cost over quality. Enphase is a quite good system but needs enphase inverters I think.

OP, what is driving your need for ESS now?

 

[miimura]

The funny part is that if the system was Off Grid, then Tesla could easily have the generator charge the Powerwalls. I think it is a moral decision not a technical one.

Technically you could just tell the GW2 that it is off grid, and then use a 2 position transfer switch to change from grid feed to generator feed. Tesla allows charging from a generator when there is no grid connection at all, so it is possible but charging from a generator is at their mercy.

When designed as an off-grid system, is the Tesla system tolerant of a traditional alternator-type generator that is not frequency stable or does it require an inverter generator that can maintain a stable frequency?

 

[BGbreeder]

When designed as an off-grid system, is the Tesla system tolerant of a traditional alternator-type generator that is not frequency stable or does it require an inverter generator that can maintain a stable frequency?

When I last checked, two years ago, Tesla had a very, as in very very, short list of, IIRC. four approved generators for off grid use. I can't find a list on the site anymore.

I have never seen a description of how the generator would receive a signal to power down (or up) from the gateway. Perhaps someone here knows.

All the best,

BG

 

[giran99]

The OP needs a system and I honestly recommend waiting or find another top-tier supplier. Really a home ESS is a big step and could go sideways if you choose cost over quality. Enphase is a quite good system but needs enphase inverters I think.

OP, what is driving your need for ESS now?

Hi, i want to store energy and use at night . Because i am only using 50% of what i get from 12.6kw solar. and the rest is going to grid and they only give me credit .06kwh back... unless someone can suggest something better. i have looked at few options . they were 15-20k price tag. not worth it...

 

[Vines]

When designed as an off-grid system, is the Tesla system tolerant of a traditional alternator-type generator that is not frequency stable or does it require an inverter generator that can maintain a stable frequency?

I can't speak from experience but I would like to think that the TEG has a wider range of voltage and frequency allowed in an off grid design. If the generator bogged down significantly, or went out of voltage range for some reason, I imagine the contactors in the TEG would open and battery would take over if possible.

The generator start/stop circuit is controlled by the TEG, through one of the built in control circuits. When the batteries need charge, and the generator is not locked out overnight, the TEG sends a start signal to the generator to get some charge. I am not sure why the list of generators is so short, but that is what Tesla wants. I do not imagine many people use a powerwall for an off grid setup. Most pure off grig people want more control over their equipment and so go with a Sol-Ark, Outback or other highly programmable system.

 

[BGbreeder]

The list was so...odd, in terms of which manufacturers were represented, that I found it hard to guess the rationale. Before seeing the list, I would have guessed THD, voltage regulation, and control systems, after seeing the list...I could speculate, but I have no idea. Here is the old list;

The list doesn't include the market leader in residential generator installations.

The Kohler RESA systems have both an electronic governor and voltage control (claimed +/-1.5%). The GL is more in the range of +/-5% voltage claimed, but with no THD claims, but with a 3 second 30% voltage drop as part of the specification... As I wrote above, not obvious to me at any rate.

In an off grid generator situation, the powerwalls will help with "instantaneous" response to demand surges, but observationally, I can see a several cycle demand response lag in the powerwall's ability to meet demand as large loads, e.g. electric dryer, start or stop. So the powerwalls aren't a perfectly stiff power supply by any means. (Self-powered with solar and 3X powerwalls, when a 5400W 240V load cause grid import/exports on start/stop.) I could see that some generators might get into a "hunting" mode as the generator fuels up and fuels down in response to the Powerwall demand/output. It would suggest to me that generators with electronic (PID) filters on their rpm/voltage response might be less susceptible to "hunting".

All the best,

BG