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This is really bad..we are so spoiled

Discussion in 'Model X' started by Dutchie, Aug 9, 2017.

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  1. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    OK, we took delivery of our MX about six weeks ago. Just this evening we brought our car to the datailler to have it wrapped with XPell. Great guy and he gave us a free courtesy car for the days he needs the Tesla.

    Oh my goodness, what were we laughing the whole way home. Don't get me wrong. It is a Volkswagen, a really nice and we are very happy to have it for these days, but tears came in our eyes from laughing the way home.
    First, my goodness what a small window we have to look through. Really, the windshield seems like a porthole..

    Than we started driving. I pushed the accelerator and really nothing happened! Yes, there was a lot of noise in front and we saw the RPM shoot up, but the speedometer.... Really slowly. No feeling of accelerating what so ever..
    Then, I had to stop so I lift my foot from the accelerator. "What is this? The car just keeps on going.." No, you have to use the brake pedal. Ok, I stop.. Lift my foot of the brake pedal, and the car starts rolling again. "hé what is is this, stop" (I am used to hill hold)
    Then accelerating again. Again a lot of noise with nothing happening substantially...
    And this the whole way home. Me, my wife and daughter were laughing and laughing. Coming home we were looking at the cute little screen to see how to open the doors.....

    On the face of it it is bad how quickly spoiled you become.. I mean it is a sporty VW, nothing wrong with it, but....
     
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  2. hly

    hly Member

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    "whatever Tesla can do, Volkswagen can do better" said Herbert Diess, Volkswagen CEO.
    Then a few weeks later he admitted that Tesla is their new competitor.
    They must be feeling the heat coming :)
     
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  3. JHWJR

    JHWJR Member

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    I really loved my Lexus RX Hybrid. Drove it for 195,000 miles and it felt great. Then I got the Model X, and it was so much better. After a month or so, I had to drive the RX again, to get it detailed to sell it. That car that I really loved for so long feels so crude by comparison. Everything you mention above. I don't ever want to go back to ICE and the horrible driving experience is a big part of that. The X is great.
     
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  4. lux_cars

    lux_cars Member

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    As much as I like Tesla, a VW is an unfair comparison. Model X should be compared to ~$100,000 SUVs if you want to be fair.

    http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne-turbo-models/

    2017 Range Rover Autobiography | Land Rover USA
     
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  5. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    My wife's Lexus RX350 is a foot shorter and weighs probably 1,000lb less than my model S70, yet when I have to drive it the acceleration from that highly rated V6 feels sluggish, especially at freeway speeds, and the first time I took my foot off the gas approaching a stop light it felt to me like a runaway throttle, so accustomed have I become to regen. Then there is the disgusting smell of exhaust fumes in the garage after parking it.

    Like OP, I am spoiled.
     
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  6. lux_cars

    lux_cars Member

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    Again, the Lexus RX is not comparable to S/X. I would compare similarly priced high-end cars.
     
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  7. JoeZ

    JoeZ Member

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  8. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    #8 AnxietyRanger, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
    There has been a spate of such reactions every year since EVs came out and of course Tesla's performance inprovements have accelerated those reactions. They are understandable. There is certain immediate appeal in driving an EV.

    My own first post and the funny blog of a Swedish guy from back around 2014/2015 spring to mind:

    "Car market literally down to 2 cars today"

    Test drive of a petrol car - Tesla Club Sweden

    No doubt EVs have that immediate acceleration response and equally the potential for the immediate regen braking response ICEs generally do not. They are also quieter as far as engine noise goes (though high-end ICEs are more sound insulated than Tesla from road noise). And of course there is none of the exhaust smell or gasoline tank filling smell. Finally I'd mention EVs allow pre-heating and cooling without exhausts and inside.

    Beyond that, the cars of course start trading punches. A high-end ICE will be superior in prolonged fast driving as well as on faster speed ranges. An ICE will "charge" faster. Much faster. ICE cars have better range. ICE cars currently sport many equipment benefits not seen on EVs etc. Tesla has the software updates etc.

    Time will change / even out many of these things and I expect BEVs to prevail, but we are not there quite yet.

    As for me, my reaction in 2014 was exactly the same as OPs. By 2016-2017 the novelty had worn off and I quite enjoy driving great ICEs today as well.

    Not cheap Volkswagens, mind you. But that was never a good comparison to begin with.
     
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  9. trils0n

    trils0n 2013 P85

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    In my experience (I've been driving my Model S since March 2013), even really nice gas cars (same price bracket as the Model S or Model X) feel quite crude compared to a Tesla in terms of driving dynamics like accelerator pedal response/feel and NVH related to the drivetrain. There is just no way even a really smooth ICE matches the electric drive train. Then you have the transmission, which will be 6-10 gears of absolute lol's. Sometimes it feels like: "did they make the car this bad as a joke or is this really the best they can do?"
     
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  10. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    Certainly there is a massive difference in the driving feeling on ICE compared to BEV.

    ICE needs revs and gears and has inherent lags in its reaction. On the other hand, it can sustain its reactions higher and longer - and is less susceptible to weather or "charge state" for example.

    The question then becomes, how much that particular aspect of the technology matters to each user.

    The best ICEs are still quicker and faster than BEVs overall. They won't be forever, but current facts are current facts.
     
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  11. lux_cars

    lux_cars Member

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    I'd have to disagree. A Panamera has better driving dynamics. An S-Class is much more refined.
    Now let's see what Porsche can do with the Mission-E!
     
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  12. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    You make a good point. Driving dynamics are still better on best ICEs compared to current BEVs, but that is not really because of the drivetrain technology. Both BEV and ICE can have great dynamics, if so developed.
     
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  13. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    Put it like this: Take the latest, best Model X and the latest, best luxury SUV in similar price point.

    The Model X will be quicker in 0-60 and will have superior, smoother one-pedal acceleration and braking feel. It will make less noise, vibrate less and can be heated/cooled anytime, even indoors. Tesla also has the software updates.

    Probably in every other area of driving comfort, other driving dynamics than acceleration, in speed (including maximum speed and prolonged performance), in interior comforts/features and at-speed quiteness the ICE will still take the cake.

    It currently comes down to what you value more.
     
  14. trils0n

    trils0n 2013 P85

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    Depends what you value. Brake pedal is certainly much more refined on any Porsche than Tesla. Porsche cars generally have really nice brake feel. And general sport car feel. But I was talking about accelerator pedal, which I like much better than any Porsche. And since I hardly every touch the brakes on the Tesla, thanks to the excellent accelerator/regen setup, that doesn't matter much to me. Test driving the Panamera before the Model S, and it wasn't good enough to sway me to buy that car instead.

    Again, depends what you value. S Class interior is quieter at highway speeds, and ride is much smoother/floaty. But I was talking about drive train refinement, and for me Tesla wins. I watched my coworker in the parking lot press the start button on his brand new S Class, and the whole car shook and vibrated when the engine came to life. It sounded almost like the car was programed to blip the throttle a little bit to make noise when the ignition was turned on. But to me, that isn't refined, that is crude. Automatic transmissions, even the good ones, I really don't like them, much rather have the constant smooth torque of the electric motor + reduction gear.
     
  15. rainforest

    rainforest Member

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    That must be Ken Lewis' Volkswagen. He lent it to me as well.
     
  16. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    I don't remember our Lexus LS 400 accelerating substantially faster than the smaller and lighter RX350, so I looked up torque to weight ratio of 2017 LS 460 and RX 350. they are roughly equal; 16.3:1 vs 15.7:1, so comparison of acceleration of the similarly priced and similar weight luxury Lexus LS and my low-end S70 should be about the same as the RX350 comparison. My lowest torque Tesla sedan would therefor still be much more responsive than highest torque Lexus sedan.
     
  17. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    #17 AnxietyRanger, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    You are talking a very small subset of driving dynamics and in your text ignoring many parts of them.

    Starting the car is just one thing, as is accelerating from standstill. Everyone probably agrees these are areas where BEVs in general and Teslas in particular are superior. There is also the case of the low center of gravity and weight distribution it grants, in favor of large-battery BEVs. And that regenerative braking can make for great one-pedal driving in certain scenarios.

    However, talking of cornering or suspension for example, or racing in general, means that there are far superior ICEs out there than there are BEVs. Same with high-speed, high-end performance and sustaining performance beyond the 90-100% 0-60. Some of these issues are inherent to BEVs (i.e. solving the high-speed/high-end and/or sustained performance is still tough), some are simply because no BEV maker (maybe Rimac?) has seriously attacked these questions yet. That low center of gravity can only go so far.

    It would be a gross over-simplification to claim BEVs - as they stand today - are, in general, superior to drive compared to ICEs. They are superior in a subset of things related to driving.

    IMO:

    1) BEVs have great off the line performance, great refinement, great for urban commutes and city living (especially if you can charge at home or work).
    2) BEVs are mediocre for the long-distance or attacking B roads (long refueling times, mediocre handling and suspension available, minimal interior comforts available, offset a little by the smooth drivetrain).
    3) BEVs range from useless to barely adequate for (non-drag) racing or autobahns.

    Luckily for me, I use cars mostly for scenario 1, so Tesla has been working great for me since 2014 for the daily commute. For 2, I often resort to an ICE. I'm not into 3, but know enough to understand how limited current consumer BEVs are for that.

    Perhaps one day BEVs will be superior in all that. The day is not yet today.
     
  18. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

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    I kept my other car (ICE) after buying my Model S, thinking I'd use it for long trips.

    Turns out it gathered cobwebs (literally). I finally decided to just sell it after 9 months of barely using it, and it wouldn't start due to battery neglect (sorry, old faithful). A new battery, and bye bye.

    Once you go EV you can't go back. I will never buy another ICE car. If I go broke one day I'll be trolling for old Nissan Leafs (leaves?) before getting another ICE.
     
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  19. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

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  20. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    #20 AnxietyRanger, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    I respect the opinion and I know you are not alone. So it is, for some. Personally, I don't see it quite as simple anymore. Since 2014 (when I went BEV) I have gotten two ICEs while also replacing the EV once.

    I think it is a process for me and for many, even us who have certainly seen the BEV light and believe in it. Little by little the ICEs of the world will be replaced by the next big thing (probably just BEVs, less likely also some other alternative fuel), but I've come to the opinion that it will probably not be an overnight, black or white, switch for most people.

    Three reasons for me personally:

    1) I certainly can't do without an ICE (or PHEV) yet, getting around on a BEV would be impossible to the extent I need. So I while I find it unlikely that I'd get another ICE for this purpose (instead extending the ones I have), I'm noting a real need and it isn't impossible it might turn into an ICE/PHEV purchase still. This is getting better for the BEV all the time, and there is a chance at some point I would simply go rental for the occasion it isn't enough, but we're not there yet.

    2) There is also very little choice in terms of BEVs at the moment. I can't see getting two Model S/X's for example and no (premium, large-battery) hatchback/SUV third alternative seems to exist yet in my market anyway. If Jaguar, Audi or perhaps Tesla's Model Y make the expected headway, this one I expect to solve itself in the medium term.

    3) Who knows what happens on the front of fun cars. There is still very little available in the BEV segment, for example very little in terms of open-tops or smaller, sportier cars. This I expect to take the longest to be solved and there are decades of car history and legacy and progress based on ICE in this segment that migth still have some appeal. Different appeal than a BEV, sure, but appeal still. There is still appeal in an analogue watch, even if the smartphone or smartwatch is clearly superior.

    Mind you, I do believe - and have believed for sure since 2014 - the ICE will go away and replaced by new technologies. How long that exactly might take and how exactly it will play out, I don't know.

    :)
     
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