This will not end well for BMW

[tttt]

BMW actually just put the X3 30e plug-in hybrid on the market, and I don't blame any of you if you missed the news. I have been a long time BMW fan (only recently migrated to a M3P) and I had no idea this vehicle was available.
Before my Tesla, I had a 530e which was my gateway drug into the EV world. I really enjoyed that car, but I knew I was ready to go 100% electric. BMW's hybrid drivetrain is great, so the same system in an X3 is excellent for someone who is not ready to go full electric. (...and most people aren't, in my experience)
Me, I got the Tesla and not looking back.

 

[Jayson]

Now you are just acting like a child. They will be bankrupt without getting bailouts from the EU and German governments. SO I am not chnging my prediction. And, the balance sheet is the best place to find information on liabilities. Here you go:

View attachment 525523

I'm acting like a child? How so?

Understand you don't like that I've pointed out you are trying to backpedal from your original prediction that BMW will be bankrupt in 2022. Anyone with a fundamental understanding of corporate finance and German politics already recognized your claim was out in left field.

And if you think the balance sheet you attached shows BMW has anywhere close to 200 billion in debt, it shows you don't even know how to interpret basic corporate financial statements, much less make predictions on when a company might be bankrupt

 

[Zorg]

As of 2018 they had 75B euros in debt, excluding all other liabilities.

 

[jboy210]

Don't assume that MY will be planted like your MX. I love the way the MX drives, it would be my favorite Tesla if it did not have the idiotic doors and front windshield. In fact, when I was buying my MS, the MX was exactly the same price and would have been a MUCH better fit for my family. But alas, I cannot change the way the world works. When I test drove a SR+ Model 3 recently, I did not like the way it felt at all. It felt extremely scary at high speed on wet/cold pavement, very unstable on the same road where my MS felt like it was on rails driving in the same conditions. The steering was extremely heavy and nervous, even on its lightest setting. The ride was absolutely unacceptable, with a weird bucking motion and very rough. It was very, very noisy -- even at low speed where I could clearly hear the new pedestrian warning noise. On the highway the noise was at the level of a non-premium car or worse. I loved the interior and the seats, both front and back. It really fit me like a glove up front -- so much better than my MS, which has terrible seats in comparison. The seating position in the back was so much better than the MS! But compared to MS/MX the M3 is very, very different. Reading all the new reviews of Model Y that have been popping up, it sounds like MY handling, steering, interior noise and ride quality are substantially similar to Model 3 (or worse.) So don't assume you will like it compared to your BMWs and certainly to your MX. Both my Model S and all of my BMWs (still own a 550i) and Mercedes felt way, way better than the Model 3 in terms of steering (way steadier, better feel,) ride (WAY more buttoned down and stable,) interior noise (no comparison, M3 is extremely loud) and overall driving feel.

Before you say anything about the 18" Michelin Primacy MXM4s -- they are my favorite tires. I have been putting them on all my cars ever since they came out. So this comparison has tires constant -- all my cars are equipped with exactly the same Michelin Primacy MXM4s, as was the Model 3 I test drove.

We own a Model 3 LR and have owned BMW X3, M3, 5 6, and 7 series cars. I know how they drive.

 

[Swampgator]

I'm acting like a child? How so?

Understand you don't like that I've pointed out you are trying to backpedal from your original prediction that BMW will be bankrupt in 2022. Anyone with a fundamental understanding of corporate finance and German politics already recognized your claim was out in left field.

And if you think the balance sheet you attached shows BMW has anywhere close to 200 billion in debt, it shows you don't even know how to interpret basic corporate financial statements, much less make predictions on when a company might be bankrupt

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. The balance sheet had 228 Billion Euros total liabilities plus equity. If you remove the equity you get 168 Euro which is roughly 185 billion dollars. I am not be using the right terms here. If they has 185 billion in financial obligations, is this not debt? Maybe not debt in the form of loans, but if they owe 116 billion Euros in "financial liabilities", are these not debts that BMW must pay out?

 

[Jayson]

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. The balance sheet had 228 Billion Euros total liabilities plus equity. If you remove the equity you get 168 Euro which is roughly 185 billion dollars. I am not be using the right terms here. If they has 185 billion in financial obligations, is this not debt? Maybe not debt in the form of loans, but if they owe 116 billion Euros in "financial liabilities", are these not debts that BMW must pay out?

According to the balance sheet you attached, debt was approximately 117 billion, nowhere near the 200 billion you claimed.

 

[Zorg]

Regardless of details, they are pretty indebted, which is consistent with what I had read before. This will hamper their ability to invest into EV changeover.

 

[asus389]

Even if you ignore the trend of people shifting to SUVs the other thing that has been hurting BMW the past few years is the 3 Series was getting stale. The F30 3 series came out in 2012 and even though they updated the tech in a lot of ways it was a worse 3 series compared to the previous two generations of 3 series. With the F30 BMW basically started chasing mainline luxury cars that were larger, had less road and steering feel, more sedate handling, etc. Thus they lost some of their differentiation from competitors like Audi, MB, Lexus, etc. The new 3 series seems like a good update, but I doubt it drives like a 90s/2000s 3 series.

 

[stcptl]

Not sure of the MY vs X3 comparison, but the iX, ignoring its “challenging” look, seems to be a very good vehicle based on reviews and it is priced aggressively compared to the more expensive Model X.

 

[TSLY]

Not sure of the MY vs X3 comparison, but the iX, ignoring its “challenging” look, seems to be a very good vehicle based on reviews and it is priced aggressively compared to the more expensive Model X.

BMW's code name for the iX is "The Klutzy".

 

[mackgriggs]

Why does BMW think that those huge buckteeth on the front look good?

 

[TSLY]

Why does BMW think that those huge buckteeth on the front look good?

Just switched to Tesla after 2 Bimmers. As I've said, BMW's CEO should fire the entire design team and then resign in disgrace.

Had BMW lost its soul?

www.bimmerfest.com

 

[FlatSix911]

BMW's code name for the iX is "The Klutzy".

Why does BMW think that those huge buckteeth on the front look good?

Just switched to Tesla after 2 Bimmers. As I've said, BMW's CEO should fire the entire design team and then resign in disgrace.

Had BMW lost its soul?

www.bimmerfest.com

Time for BMW to bring back Chirs Bangle with the earlier design elements.

Was the Bangle Era the Best Era of BMW Design?

Though Chris Bangle's designs were criticized in their time, was the Bangle era actually the best era of BMW design?

www.bmwblog.com

 

[stcptl]

Many people make poor aesthetic choices lol
The vehicle seems impressive minus the looks.

 

[thesmokingman]

Time for BMW to bring back Chirs Bangle with the earlier design elements.

Was the Bangle Era the Best Era of BMW Design?

Though Chris Bangle's designs were criticized in their time, was the Bangle era actually the best era of BMW design?

www.bmwblog.com

Lmao, Bangle was bad though they looked good once they debangled the cars. But at least his grills weren't this bad.

Controversial BMW Designer Chris Bangle Quits

Chris Bangle, who as head of design for BMW became one of the most famous — and reviled — auto designers in automotive history, has abruptly resigned after 16 years with the German automaker. Few will mourn his departure. Fewer still will deny his impact on auto design. The 52-year-old American...

www.wired.com

For ex. the lunacy of Bangle.

BMW's 7 Series 'Bangle butt' helped legitimize weird styling - Indie Auto

BMW's 7 Series 'Bangle butt' helped legitimize weird styling - Design Notes Indie Auto

www.indieauto.org

 

[FlatSix911]

Lmao, Bangle was bad though they looked good once they debangled the cars. But at least his grills weren't this bad.

Controversial BMW Designer Chris Bangle Quits

Chris Bangle, who as head of design for BMW became one of the most famous — and reviled — auto designers in automotive history, has abruptly resigned after 16 years with the German automaker. Few will mourn his departure. Fewer still will deny his impact on auto design. The 52-year-old American...

www.wired.com

For ex. the lunacy of Bangle.

BMW's 7 Series 'Bangle butt' helped legitimize weird styling - Indie Auto

BMW's 7 Series 'Bangle butt' helped legitimize weird styling - Design Notes Indie Auto

www.indieauto.org

LOL -That's the point... he was bad but still better than the current design direction!

 

[Hippogrief]

I think BMW will be the first OEM to go bankrupt. Probably in 2022. They have about 12 billion in cash.

Hard to go bankrupt with 12 billion cash

Almost all of their assets are ICE (stranded). They have already committed to spend at least 17 billion for batteries and EV conversion. Where does that money come from once their CUV sales tank?

Even with sales declines due to Supply Chain issues, BMW made a group net profit of 2.5 billion EUR in 2021Q3. Automotive segment generated 1,4 billon EUR Free Cash Flow in Q3...

https://www.bmwgroup.com/content/dam/grpw/websites/bmwgroup_com/ir/downloads/en/2021/q3/BMW_Q3-2021_EN.pdf

They will not go bankrupt in 2022, and will certainly not be the first OEM to go bankrupt. They have sound financial figures and good results. At the moment, > 90% of all car sales are ICE cars, and BMW is the most profitable in producing them.

 

[WillwayGTO]

Before I even thought about getting a Tesla I told myself that my number 1 requirement for my next car will be CarPlay. I was dissapoiinted to find out that Tesla doesn't have CarPlay. Maybe its not necessary with Tesla? The 3D parking would be great as well.

I am also hoping that the Y is quiet inside at highway speeds, similar to most of the luxury brands.

Well. i think Tesla,s idea turns out to be better. Wife and I have iPhone 12 Pros Her new Subaru loses connection after about a week I have spent hours on this. Car Play. Blown it all away phone and car and redone. Does not work. She keeps saying can’t play music can’t make calls. This never happens with Tesla. Make phone key. use Siri in car. Play music and podcast thru sound system. Take make calls through sound system. Get text read to you though screen. Your missing nothing IMO. And it always connects. So….

 

[cusetownusa]

Well. i think Tesla,s idea turns out to be better. Wife and I have iPhone 12 Pros Her new Subaru loses connection after about a week I have spent hours on this. Car Play. Blown it all away phone and car and redone. Does not work. She keeps saying can’t play music can’t make calls. This never happens with Tesla. Make phone key. use Siri in car. Play music and podcast thru sound system. Take make calls through sound system. Get text read to you though screen. Your missing nothing IMO. And it always connects. So….

Interesting that you quoted me, first, I forgot that I wrote that as it was awhile ago, and 2, my wife got a car since then with CarPlay so I now have first hand experience with it.

I was just telling her yesterday as I was driving and CarPlay (music) froze again, that it’s more of a hassle then it’s worth. First hers isn’t wireless and a wireless adapter that I bought had some issues after awhile and i got sick of wasting time fixing the issues and I gave up on it. So now, to use CarPlay I have to plug my phone in everytime, which isn’t that big of a deal but unfortunately it freezes up on me a lot. For example, when I paused the music for a minute, it wouldn’t unpause. Have to open my phone, close pandora app, and restart to get it to work again.

In short, sounds like we have a lot of the same issues with CarPlay that you have had. I don’t think my wife even bothers with it anymore unless she want to use google navigation. Although her cars built in NAV works pretty good and also works with the HUD which is pretty cool.

I would prefer to just use the cars infotainment system, especially if it is a well designed one. I haven’t received my Y yet but I no longer care that it doesn’t have CarPlay. Hopefully Teslas navigation and etc work well enough that I don’t wish it had google navigation or something.

 

[Tha_Ape]

For BMW in the US, the X3 is their best selling vehicle. The X3 is the source of most of the profits for BMW in the USA.

I just spec'd out a M40i X3 with white interior and gray 20" wheels. It costs $63K. My wifes Model Y with same trim will cost $56K

The Model Y is the same weight as the BMW with a full tank of gas. The Model Y is as fast as the BMW, cheaper to run, has better tech, and will probably have handling as good as the BMW because of the low center of gravity. I will not need to shut the motor down at a stoplight to meet fuel economy standards. It will not need oil changes and other ICE maintenance.

BMW has been killed by the Model 3 on the sedan side. I expect the same in the CUV space. Their car sales were down 14% last year, with the light trucks (X1-6) up 35% and accounting for all of the growth last year. How is BMW going to survive this?
What is their plan? Plug in hybrids? There are only so many people that will pay 8K more to get less performance and features.

I think BMW will be the first OEM to go bankrupt. Probably in 2022. They have about 12 billion in cash. Almost all of their assets are ICE (stranded). They have already committed to spend at least 17 billion for batteries and EV conversion. Where does that money come from once their CUV sales tank?

I think people really overestimate how much maintenance modern ICE need. Oil changes are 1-2xs a year. Then really nothing else for 30k mi when you end up needing to b change an air filter. 100k for all the other stuff.

For reference, Tesla recommends annual brake caliper lubrication which, if you don't do it yourself, will easily cost as much as 2 oil changes.