This will stir things up if approved - California's Proposal to Ban New Gas Vehicles

From today's news here in California:
California’s clean-air regulators Wednesday unveiled a far-reaching proposal requiring a ramp-up in sales of zero-emission cars, culminating in a ban on new gasoline-powered cars by 2035.

If adopted by the California Air Resources Board this summer, the regulations will be the first of their kind in the world and could pave the way for nationwide standards. At least 15 other states pledged to follow California’s lead on car standards on previous clean-car rules, and the federal government usually follows.

California Unveils Proposal To Ban New Gasoline-Fueled Cars

If adopted, the rules would be the first of their kind in the world, prohibiting new gasoline or diesel cars by 2035.

laist.com

("Charging a Tesla car.JPG" by Jeffrey Beall is licensed under CC BY 4.0.)

 

[thesmokingman]

It's 4 times the size of a powerwall and you already have it right there. Assuming you don't happen to need to drive it long distance right away, why NOT help the grid during rare emergencies? Tesla is headed to packs that last anywhere from 250k to 1M miles - a half dozen additional cycles per year is not going to be meaningful.

The problem is it comes with a cost of nearly 4k for the integration system before installation costs to enable that ability. And that doesn't include the 1.4k charger lol. This is why I wrote it's marketing for the unaware.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

The problem is it comes with a cost of nearly 4k for the integration system before installation costs to enable that ability. And that doesn't include the 1.4k charger lol. This is why I wrote it's marketing for the unaware.

Most folks are already getting a home charger for their car - it is not radically harder to include vehicle-to-grid support while setting up the charger. In fact it could be made a standard part of the home vehicle integration. Tesla may never do it since Elon prefers powerwalls (which amusingly need the exact same pieces, just not positioned in a car).

 

[AMPd]

Uh, they charge at night, when there's roughly 40% excess on the grid. In fact we eventually have the cars which are plugged in and willing put power into the grid during peak to serve as a virtual grid battery on unusually hot days. And yes, Teslas do not (currently) do vehicle-to-grid, but the question was about long-term plan for electric cars and grid health.

Uh, what about the cars that are on the road traveling? Since Labor Day is a big travel weekend. Should they park their cars and wait?

 

[nwdiver]

Uh, what about the cars that are on the road traveling? Since Labor Day is a big travel weekend. Should they park their cars and wait?

Uh, try to think about this by the numbers. Only ~30% of people travel for Labor Day. Many of them fly. People adjust their departure times to avoid traffic all the time. Would it be that unreasonable to expect people to also adjust the time they're on the road if they choose to drive to either benefit from free DFCF or avoid extremely expensive DCFC? Sure doesn't seem likely to be that big of an issue

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Uh, what about the cars that are on the road traveling? Since Labor Day is a big travel weekend. Should they park their cars and wait?

Given that probably 98% of the total car population are NOT involved in a long distance cross country trip during peak hours during a heat wave... they should not be a meaningful load on the grid, and indeed the supercharger stations can run from battery megapacks if we did find that we had to shut off all fast charging on rare events.

 

[AMPd]

Given that probably 98% of the total car population are NOT involved in a long distance cross country trip during peak hours during a heat wave... they should not be a meaningful load on the grid, and indeed the supercharger stations can run from battery megapacks if we did find that we had to shut off all fast charging on rare events.

It doesn’t have to be a cross country trip, did you honestly think that’s what I meant? just a few hundred mile trip back home on the last day of the weekend, which this time happens to be the worst possible time to travel.
But obviously Tesla can and does supplement their peak load with battery back up but we can’t ignore the fact that there are and will be plenty of non Tesla EVs that will need to charge at the worst possible time. You’d think California politicians would first focus on setting up the necessary infrastructure before diving head first into an empty pool with this piece of legislation.

 

[ElectricIAC]

It doesn’t have to be a cross country trip, did you honestly think that’s what I meant? just a few hundred mile trip back home on the last day of the weekend, which this time happens to be the worst possible time to travel.
But obviously Tesla can and does supplement their peak load with battery back up but we can’t ignore the fact that there are and will be plenty of non Tesla EVs that will need to charge at the worst possible time. You’d think California politicians would first focus on setting up the necessary infrastructure before diving head first into an empty pool with this piece of legislation.

That’s not how California works.
Look up Prop 13.

 

[nwdiver]

You’d think California politicians would first focus on setting up the necessary infrastructure before diving head first into an empty pool with this piece of legislation.

??? What necessary infrastructure? A grid that can fast charge 20M cars all at the same time during peak hours on the worst day? By that logic should they stop selling any car until there are no traffic jams on any road at any time? Are some people going to have to suffer with 30kW DCFC instead of 150kW charging at 7pm during a heat wave? Probably. Just like some people have to sit in their car for an hour to drive 2 miles on the 405 sometimes.

In your scenario very few people would even need to fast charge. They leave home fully charged and charge when they return home or charge at their destination. No problem.

Change doesn't have to be perfect to be worth it. Just better. Which this is.

 

[ElectricIAC]

??? What necessary infrastructure? A grid that can fast charge 20M cars all at the same time during peak hours on the worst day? By that logic should they stop selling any car until there are no traffic jams on any road at any time?

In your scenario very few people would even need to fast charge. They leave home fully charged and charge when they return home or charge at their destination. No problem.

Change doesn't have to be perfect to be worth it. Just better. Which this is.

California:
We’re banning gas cars, deal with it loser!

Also California:
Don’t charge your EV, pleb!

 

[nwdiver]

California:
We’re banning gas cars, deal with it loser!

Also California:
Don’t charge your EV, pleb!

Who said 'don't charge your EV'? The statement was 'don't charge your EV between 4pm and 9pm.' Context


And the ACTUAL statement from CAISO was DO charge your EV.

 

[ElectricIAC]

The statement was 'don't charge your EV between 4pm and 9pm.'

Who wants to pay peak rates?! No thanks.

 

[nwdiver]

Who wants to pay peak rates?! No thanks.

??? Did you get confused on how words or numbers work? Peak hours are 4 - 9... so DON'T, DO NOT charge during peak hours... which is 4pm - 9pm.

 

[ElectricIAC]

??? Did you get confused on how words or numbers work? Peak hours are 4 - 9... so DON'T, DO NOT charge during peak hours... which is 4pm - 9pm.

Good plan if you like saving money, yes.

What’s your peak and off peak differential over that way?

 

[ohmman]

Good plan if you like saving money, yes.

What’s your peak and off peak differential over that way?

@nwdiver doesn't live in California, but I'm in PG&E territory on EV2-A and my summer peak is $0.560/kWh. Off-peak is $0.247/kWh. Differential is $0.313/kWh. I never charge during those peak hours anyway (I would imagine few do) so this doesn't remotely impact me.

 

[ElectricIAC]

@nwdiver doesn't live in California, but I'm in PG&E territory on EV2-A and my summer peak is $0.560/kWh. Off-peak is $0.247/kWh. Differential is $0.313/kWh. I never charge during those peak hours anyway (I would imagine few do) so this doesn't remotely impact me.

Any solar? I imagine it makes sense at those rates.

 

[ohmman]

Any solar? I imagine it makes sense at those rates.

10kW with another 10kW being installed shortly. Definitely makes sense at these rates, the ROI is relatively short when you're getting ripped off by the utility. Which incentivizes people to get more solar, which makes the utility have to raise rates, which..

 

[ZenRockGarden]

10kW with another 10kW being installed shortly. Definitely makes sense at these rates, the ROI is relatively short when you're getting ripped off by the utility. Which incentivizes people to get more solar, which makes the utility have to raise rates, which..

Good point - hidden benefit of recent high energy prices is that it strongly motivates consumer solar option.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Good point - hidden benefit of recent high energy prices is that it strongly motivates consumer solar option.

I wouldn’t call it a benefit as much as I would call it an offset. Higher energy prices make everything more expensive including those panels and battery backup if applicable.

 

[roblab]

Most folks are already getting a home charger for their car - it is not radically harder to include vehicle-to-grid support while setting up the charger. In fact it could be made a standard part of the home vehicle integration. Tesla may never do it since Elon prefers powerwalls (which amusingly need the exact same pieces, just not positioned in a car).

...The exact same peices. only smaller. My car holds ~100 kwh in its battery. My wife's holds about 70. My three power walls, together, hold around 20. There's no comparison other than they are all batteries. As far as V to G, I don't need it. My power walls give me power to make it through one of the many common power outages we have here, thanks to PG&E, and if the grid needs more power, maybe that's PG&E's problem. Tell you what. You give up your power some evening to help support PG&E and then wake up at midnight finding the lights won't work, the furnace won't work, the AC won't work, because you're in some sort of power outage, and then you find out your car's drained. No thanks.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

...The exact same peices. only smaller. My car holds ~100 kwh in its battery. My wife's holds about 70. My three power walls, together, hold around 20. There's no comparison other than they are all batteries. As far as V to G, I don't need it. My power walls give me power to make it through one of the many common power outages we have here, thanks to PG&E, and if the grid needs more power, maybe that's PG&E's problem. Tell you what. You give up your power some evening to help support PG&E and then wake up at midnight finding the lights won't work, the furnace won't work, the AC won't work, because you're in some sort of power outage, and then you find out your car's drained. No thanks.

But this was my point. We're buying -additional- expensive batteries to hang on the wall when we have bigger better ones parked right next to it that could do the same job better once in a while when there's a heat emergency and the grid needs support.