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Those dots!

RJUK

Member
May 31, 2019
58
12
United Kingdom
Hi folks, just wanted to get a bit of guidance on "those dots". The ones that show when your regen or power is reduced.

At the moment it's pretty cold here in the UK (around 7c), but still above freezing. However, my car (a brand new Model 3 Performance) seems to have quite a few dots on the left side (regen?) and this evening 5 dots on the right side (power?).

I've only been doing short trips of around 5 - 6 miles the last few days, which hasn't been enough to reduce the amount of dots showing, but is this normal for this temperature? My SOC was probably around 60% today. Higher yesterday.

I've just moved from a Jaguar I-Pace, which never seemed to limit the regen or power at these temps. So whether that means Tesla are being kinder to the battery, or there's some other reason to use less regen and reduced power, I dunno? I think the Jag had to be nearer 2c or freezing before it would limit regen, and even at those temps I don't remember it limiting power.

FWIW, I have the Tesla in the higher of the two regen modes (normal, I think), because I like the one pedal driving style, though in the Tesla it's back to two pedal driving at the moment, due to the lack of regen...

Also, whilst the power is limited, is it going to "hurt" the car to put my foot down? As in, flat to the floor? Or am I better off warming it up slowly?

Thanks
 

SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
9,249
10,123
SF Bay Area
I get the reduced regen alert on mornings sometimes even in the low 50Fs I think, definitely in the 40Fs (it was 47F this morning and I had the alert), so what you are seeing at 7C is normal. 5-6 miles likely doesn't even get the battery that warm especially if you are doing local street driving. If you have home charging and you can program it to finish charging when you typically leave in the morning, that might help as the charging will keep the battery warmer.

However I will add that our roads are dry (no snow/ice to cause traction issues that Tesla warns about) so I keep my regen on normal and use Hold which has worked fine. I'm just more aware when I need to brake in traffic or allowed the regen to "brake" earlier until the car's battery has warmed up.
 

jboy210

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Dec 2, 2016
5,695
3,690
Northern California
Hi folks, just wanted to get a bit of guidance on "those dots". The ones that show when your regen or power is reduced.

At the moment it's pretty cold here in the UK (around 7c), but still above freezing. However, my car (a brand new Model 3 Performance) seems to have quite a few dots on the left side (regen?) and this evening 5 dots on the right side (power?).

I've only been doing short trips of around 5 - 6 miles the last few days, which hasn't been enough to reduce the amount of dots showing, but is this normal for this temperature? My SOC was probably around 60% today. Higher yesterday.

I've just moved from a Jaguar I-Pace, which never seemed to limit the regen or power at these temps. So whether that means Tesla are being kinder to the battery, or there's some other reason to use less regen and reduced power, I dunno? I think the Jag had to be nearer 2c or freezing before it would limit regen, and even at those temps I don't remember it limiting power.

FWIW, I have the Tesla in the higher of the two regen modes (normal, I think), because I like the one pedal driving style, though in the Tesla it's back to two pedal driving at the moment, due to the lack of regen...

Also, whilst the power is limited, is it going to "hurt" the car to put my foot down? As in, flat to the floor? Or am I better off warming it up slowly?

Thanks

As I understand it, the i-Pace has a sizable portion of its battery reserved to allow fast charging to higher percentage before it starts to taper the charge rate. Bjorn Nyland has a video on this. If that is correct, the normally unused capacity could also allow it to take additional regen. This all conjecture on my part.
 

ewoodrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2018
5,285
4,280
Buford, GA
The dots are just a notification that regen may be limited. With 8 dots it actually seemed as if I had full regen. Folks seem to think that there is an issue when regen is limited, there is not. It's just a notification, like same cars show an indicator when outside air temperature is low. It just means that at some times, you may have to use the brake.

The dots can appear on both sides of the line. On the left is regen, on the right is limited power. So putting your foot down is only going to be impacted when the dots are on the right.

As with many things, the functionality of the dots has changed in recent releases. Limited regen is a LOT more prevalent than it was last year. I think that they've gone a little overboard at this point. It's probably in an effort to reach the millions mile batteries.

It's interesting that as people continually worry about treating their battery so carefully that Tesla is probably increasing the lifetime beyond the 300,000 or so miles expected on the current Model 3 batteries. (Who in the heck keeps a car for 300,000 miles???)
 

RJUK

Member
May 31, 2019
58
12
United Kingdom
As I understand it, the i-Pace has a sizable portion of its battery reserved to allow fast charging to higher percentage before it starts to taper the charge rate. Bjorn Nyland has a video on this. If that is correct, the normally unused capacity could also allow it to take additional regen. This all conjecture on my part.
Yeah, I dunno that's it, because I was only at around 60% SOC, so it wasn't the capacity that was limiting the regen, it was most likely the temperature. The I-Pace seems to regen fully at lower temperatures than the Tesla does.

This morning I had around 80 - 85% SOC after charging overnight a bit and no dots on the power side, even though it was a bit cooler this morning, which is weird, because charging finished at around 3:50am, so I doubt there was any heat left in the battery.

So were the 5 dots yesterday on the power side due to my car being at 60% SOC? Surely you don't start losing full power that high up?
 

SD_Engnr

Active Member
Mar 24, 2016
1,836
1,521
San Diego
Yeah, I dunno that's it, because I was only at around 60% SOC, so it wasn't the capacity that was limiting the regen, it was most likely the temperature. The I-Pace seems to regen fully at lower temperatures than the Tesla does.

This morning I had around 80 - 85% SOC after charging overnight a bit and no dots on the power side, even though it was a bit cooler this morning, which is weird, because charging finished at around 3:50am, so I doubt there was any heat left in the battery.

So were the 5 dots yesterday on the power side due to my car being at 60% SOC? Surely you don't start losing full power that high up?

Since power is noticeably less at 60%, and also impacted by battery temperature, the 5 dots were likely a result of the combination you described.

You should be fine putting your throttle to the floorboard (safely).
 

woodguyatl

Member
Oct 3, 2018
446
378
GA
The dots are just a notification that regen may be limited. With 8 dots it actually seemed as if I had full regen. Folks seem to think that there is an issue when regen is limited, there is not. It's just a notification, like same cars show an indicator when outside air temperature is low. It just means that at some times, you may have to use the brake.

The dots can appear on both sides of the line. On the left is regen, on the right is limited power. So putting your foot down is only going to be impacted when the dots are on the right.

As with many things, the functionality of the dots has changed in recent releases. Limited regen is a LOT more prevalent than it was last year. I think that they've gone a little overboard at this point. It's probably in an effort to reach the millions mile batteries.

It's interesting that as people continually worry about treating their battery so carefully that Tesla is probably increasing the lifetime beyond the 300,000 or so miles expected on the current Model 3 batteries. (Who in the heck keeps a car for 300,000 miles???)

I'm in the minority I know, but 2 of my 4 cars are over 300k miles. One, a work truck, by a lot but I'm not sure how much because the odometer and speedometer stopped working about 10 years ago. The other, an '02 Tahoe we use for road trips just clicked over a few months ago. Eventually the miles become so cheap it doesn't make sense to get rid of the car/truck.
 
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Phlier

Bluebird
Jun 12, 2019
2,164
4,016
Utah
Also, whilst the power is limited, is it going to "hurt" the car to put my foot down? As in, flat to the floor?
Nope, you won't hurt a thing. Tesla's nanny software does a great job at preventing you from doing anything bad to your battery.
 

RJUK

Member
May 31, 2019
58
12
United Kingdom
Nope, you won't hurt a thing. Tesla's nanny software does a great job at preventing you from doing anything bad to your battery.
Sure, but Tesla let you charge it to 100% where other manufacturer's all fence off a few percent to help prolong battery life.

Makes me wonder why my I-Pace did that, but then had full regen at 5C, whereas the Tesla lets you charge to 100% but has (in my experience) almost no regen at 5C. I've had almost no regen since having the car because of all my short trips. Almost starting to wonder if it works!

Yesterday I noticed an odd thing, that there were dots on the regen side, but even if I lifted off fully on the motorway at 70mph, the car wouldn't use the full amount of regen available. It would leave around 5mm of regen bar grey before the dots. Anyone know why that would be? I'd have thought it would utilise all of the regen right up to the dots? My foot was fully off the throttle pedal.

I'm just finding myself using friction brakes far more in the Tesla, which is annoying. I wonder if it's for a reason though...
 

SD_Engnr

Active Member
Mar 24, 2016
1,836
1,521
San Diego
Sure, but Tesla let you charge it to 100% where other manufacturer's all fence off a few percent to help prolong battery life.

Makes me wonder why my I-Pace did that, but then had full regen at 5C, whereas the Tesla lets you charge to 100% but has (in my experience) almost no regen at 5C. I've had almost no regen since having the car because of all my short trips. Almost starting to wonder if it works!

Yesterday I noticed an odd thing, that there were dots on the regen side, but even if I lifted off fully on the motorway at 70mph, the car wouldn't use the full amount of regen available. It would leave around 5mm of regen bar grey before the dots. Anyone know why that would be? I'd have thought it would utilise all of the regen right up to the dots? My foot was fully off the throttle pedal.

I'm just finding myself using friction brakes far more in the Tesla, which is annoying. I wonder if it's for a reason though...

What are your regen settings at? Low or Standard?
 

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
This seems fairly normal for a Model 3, but I haven't seen the power limit at that high of an SoC myself. As it's only slightly limited, it's not something you'll often notice/feel nor is it something you need to worry about (that's why the car is limiting it -- so you don't have to).

Tesla is fairly well known for being one of the weaker options for regen force (not necessarily power). If I recall correctly, the BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt both slow down more aggressively with just regen if for no other reason than being lighter vehicles. I've spent most of my Winter on the Low setting at this point anyways (icy highways) which matches how I drive anyways (less aggressively because, y'know, the ice). Having not driven another EV, I find the Standard regen setting quite strong and usually more aggressive than I personally usually slow down.

Sure, but Tesla let you charge it to 100% where other manufacturer's all fence off a few percent to help prolong battery life.

Makes me wonder why my I-Pace did that, but then had full regen at 5C, whereas the Tesla lets you charge to 100% but has (in my experience) almost no regen at 5C. I've had almost no regen since having the car because of all my short trips. Almost starting to wonder if it works!

Yesterday I noticed an odd thing, that there were dots on the regen side, but even if I lifted off fully on the motorway at 70mph, the car wouldn't use the full amount of regen available. It would leave around 5mm of regen bar grey before the dots. Anyone know why that would be? I'd have thought it would utilise all of the regen right up to the dots? My foot was fully off the throttle pedal.

I'm just finding myself using friction brakes far more in the Tesla, which is annoying. I wonder if it's for a reason though...

A couple of things (which it seems you have a handle on):
  • Lower SoC will impact power negatively, regen positively.
  • Lower temperature will impact regen negatively, power ??? (no idea)
When you had power lightly limited at 60% but not 80%, this is likely indeed simply because of the reduced SoC. I've only seen power limiting around 26% myself, but that was with a fairly warm battery on an otherwise cold day (-10C, I believe). Our battery doesn't get too many opportunities to dip below perhaps 8C though.

Different manufacturers use different battery chemistries. It is entirely possible Jaguar's batteries have better cold temperature performance. This is the case for some PHEVs for example that sometimes use different chemistries in the Canadian vs. American markets, they use ones that have better performance in cold weather. As a California company that only really offers one chemistry per model, Tesla probably leans towards counting those in the cold as a minority that they need not worry about too much.

Regarding the regen bar not using the full amount available, I've noticed the same and chalked it up to regen being complicated. They have to manage instantaneous power (to protect the battery) while maximising torque (to slow you down) and traction (to keep you in control). Especially if you have a RWD model, this is essentially slowing the car with just the rear which isn't optimal for consistent and high traction. They probably try to get as close as they can to the power limit safely while accounting for the other constraints. Like I said, it's probably just complicated

What are your regen settings at? Low or Standard?

They've mentioned it's on Standard.
 

GtiMart

Active Member
Nov 13, 2019
1,579
1,444
Quebec City, Canada
Low temperature does also impact power as the maximum discharge power is lower. I see that with ScanMyTesla.
Regen is zero under 2-3C (battery temp)and then goes up from there. I get good regen around 10-15C.
A friend of mine with a Hyundai Ioniq is not seeing such bad regen at low temps. The Tesla bms seems very protective.
 

Dolemite

is my name
Sep 19, 2019
1,372
1,733
Seattle, WA
I’ve only had my P3D- since late August but have also noticed that regen seems to be far more conservative after recent updates. If that means I can confidently take this car past 300K miles, though, I’m good.
 

Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,299
7,606
Canyon Lake,CA
Tesla has all the data, and decided recently to limit regen in cold weather.

Maybe they are seeing something that concerned them, and the latest software has made this change.
 

WilliamG

Active Member
Apr 20, 2019
4,584
6,466
Seattle, WA
I have 310k miles on my 2000 Honda Insight which my son continues to drive. I am on my 4th set of tires and still have the original rear brake shoes. However, that is a Honda. I now have 30k on the model 3. We will see if it can beat the Insight...

You’ll never do as well on tires on the Model 3 as on your Insight. Not even close!
 

RJUK

Member
May 31, 2019
58
12
United Kingdom
What are your regen settings at? Low or Standard?

Standard. Won't go any higher! The I-Pace is a good 4o0kgs heavier than the Tesla, so it's not a weight thing, either. The Tesla ought to be able to slow down better on regen.

This seems fairly normal for a Model 3, but I haven't seen the power limit at that high of an SoC myself. As it's only slightly limited, it's not something you'll often notice/feel nor is it something you need to worry about (that's why the car is limiting it -- so you don't have to).

Tesla is fairly well known for being one of the weaker options for regen force (not necessarily power). If I recall correctly, the BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt both slow down more aggressively with just regen if for no other reason than being lighter vehicles. I've spent most of my Winter on the Low setting at this point anyways (icy highways) which matches how I drive anyways (less aggressively because, y'know, the ice). Having not driven another EV, I find the Standard regen setting quite strong and usually more aggressive than I personally usually slow down.



A couple of things (which it seems you have a handle on):
  • Lower SoC will impact power negatively, regen positively.
  • Lower temperature will impact regen negatively, power ??? (no idea)
When you had power lightly limited at 60% but not 80%, this is likely indeed simply because of the reduced SoC. I've only seen power limiting around 26% myself, but that was with a fairly warm battery on an otherwise cold day (-10C, I believe). Our battery doesn't get too many opportunities to dip below perhaps 8C though.

Different manufacturers use different battery chemistries. It is entirely possible Jaguar's batteries have better cold temperature performance. This is the case for some PHEVs for example that sometimes use different chemistries in the Canadian vs. American markets, they use ones that have better performance in cold weather. As a California company that only really offers one chemistry per model, Tesla probably leans towards counting those in the cold as a minority that they need not worry about too much.

Regarding the regen bar not using the full amount available, I've noticed the same and chalked it up to regen being complicated. They have to manage instantaneous power (to protect the battery) while maximising torque (to slow you down) and traction (to keep you in control). Especially if you have a RWD model, this is essentially slowing the car with just the rear which isn't optimal for consistent and high traction. They probably try to get as close as they can to the power limit safely while accounting for the other constraints. Like I said, it's probably just complicated



They've mentioned it's on Standard.

Does the car show dots for power just because of reduced SOC though? I thought it only showed the dots when it's software limiting the power for some reason? Not just when power has naturally dropped due to voltage drop? Else you'd start accruing power dots at 90%, 80% etc, surely?
 

BobAbooey

Member
Oct 12, 2018
589
538
usa
56BFBD39-FB7B-4856-B1F4-ECE3A980E86E.jpeg

The dots would disappear last winner quicker than this winner... 44 minutes of driving
 

timk225

Active Member
Mar 24, 2016
2,050
2,307
Pittsburgh
I've had my 3 since May '18, and I've noticed that over the last few months, the dots seem to appear earlier. I can now have 60 or 70 miles left in the battery and its already showing 3-5 power limiter dots on the right side. And even when I've been driving around all morning, in cold weather it'll still have some regen limiting dots on the left side.
 

RJUK

Member
May 31, 2019
58
12
United Kingdom
I've had my 3 since May '18, and I've noticed that over the last few months, the dots seem to appear earlier. I can now have 60 or 70 miles left in the battery and its already showing 3-5 power limiter dots on the right side. And even when I've been driving around all morning, in cold weather it'll still have some regen limiting dots on the left side.
Hmm, is anybody asking why?
 

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