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Those three extra clicks...

pilotSteve

Active Member
Jul 14, 2012
1,486
1,366
Prescott Az
The TM3 has a unique turn signal control (of course!). For those that don't know, you initiate a lane change with a single push on the stalk (not the full push which locks the turn signal on), then AP waits for the lane to be clear, makes the lane change, then turns off the signal.

My gripe is once established in the new lane the signal continues to flash exactly three times too many, every time! I hate to be signaling other cars that I might want to move to the next lane over, or I'm not paying attention and left my blinker on.

Exactly 3 blinks too many, every time.

sigh
 
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mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,126
39,993
Michigan
The TM3 has a unique turn signal control (of course!). For those that don't know, you initiate a lane change with a single push on the stalk (not the full push which locks the turn signal on), then AP waits for the lane to be clear, makes the lane change, then turns off the signal.

My grips is once established in the new lane the signal continues to flash exactly three times too many, every time! I hate to be signaling to other cars that I might want to move to the next lane over, or that I'm not paying attention and left my blinker on.

Exactly 3 blinks too many, every time.

sigh

Sounds like the AP {in progress} signal is connected to the standard {turn signal activate} input.
 

pilotSteve

Active Member
Jul 14, 2012
1,486
1,366
Prescott Az
Sounds like the AP {in progress} signal is connected to the standard {turn signal activate} input.
The 3 is designed to have a turn stalk that is momentary (i.e. not mechanically locked) and turned off by the EAP when the lane change has completed. Its a good idea, and works very well IMO. It just has those three extra blinks!!! Does anybody think thats a good idea for the AP to wait once established fully in the new lane for three blinks before it decides to turn off the blinker? Clearly this is programmed behavior that somebody chose.
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,126
39,993
Michigan
The 3 is designed to have a turn stalk that is momentary (i.e. not mechanically locked) and turned off by the EAP when the lane change has completed. Its a good idea, and works very well IMO. It just has those three extra blinks!!! Does anybody think thats a good idea for the AP to wait once established fully in the new lane for three blinks before it decides to turn off the blinker? Clearly this is programmed behavior that somebody chose.

I think the 3 final blinks are unintentional.

In a possible universe:
They started with code that would do three blinks when the stalk was momentarily pressed and code that does lane change. They tied the stalk signal to the lane change code, then routed the lane change code to the "blink 3 times" routine. So the 3 blink routine is restarted as long as the lane change is active (same as keeping the turn stalk pressed). Once lane change finishes, it stops asserting the blink input, so once the next 3 blinks complete, it shuts off.
What they would need to do is either add a hook for a "keep blinking" signal, or else send a "cancel blink" signal when lane change completes.
 
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pilotSteve

Active Member
Jul 14, 2012
1,486
1,366
Prescott Az
I think the 3 final blinks are unintentional.

In a possible universe:
They started with code that would do three blinks when the stalk was momentarily pressed and code that does lane change. They tied the stalk signal to the lane change code, then routed the lane change code to the "blink 3 times" routine. So the 3 blink routine is restarted as long as the lane change is active (same as keeping the turn stalk pressed). Once lane change finishes, it stops asserting the blink input, so once the next 3 blinks complete, it shuts off.
What they would need to do is either add a hook for a "keep blinking" signal, or else send a "cancel blink" signal when lane change completes.
As my old boss used to say about bugs in my code: "as designed but not as desired".
 

dapiya

Member
Sep 14, 2017
24
41
San Diego
The TM3 has a unique turn signal control (of course!). For those that don't know, you initiate a lane change with a single push on the stalk (not the full push which locks the turn signal on), then AP waits for the lane to be clear, makes the lane change, then turns off the signal.

My gripe is once established in the new lane the signal continues to flash exactly three times too many, every time! I hate to be signaling other cars that I might want to move to the next lane over, or I'm not paying attention and left my blinker on.

Exactly 3 blinks too many, every time.

sigh
FWIW, my 3 on AP will not change lanes with the half activation(standard 3 blinks) as you are describing in your experience. It will only change lanes with the full stalk push and click. It will blink 3 times and stop blinking on its own with a half stalk push while remaining in its current lane. I have not noticed the blinker staying on for three extra blinks after executing the lane change.
 

pilotSteve

Active Member
Jul 14, 2012
1,486
1,366
Prescott Az
FWIW, my 3 on AP will not change lanes with the half activation(standard 3 blinks) as you are describing in your experience. It will only change lanes with the full stalk push and click. It will blink 3 times and stop blinking on its own with a half stalk push while remaining in its current lane. I have not noticed the blinker staying on for three extra blinks after executing the lane change.
I”ll check again, maybe I’m doing the full push because it does (usually) execute the auto lane change while blinking plus the three gratuitous additional blinks.
 

Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,635
8,821
Palmdale, CA
FWIW, my 3 on AP will not change lanes with the half activation(standard 3 blinks) as you are describing in your experience. It will only change lanes with the full stalk push and click. It will blink 3 times and stop blinking on its own with a half stalk push while remaining in its current lane. I have not noticed the blinker staying on for three extra blinks after executing the lane change.

Same with mine. It requires a full blinker push.
 
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dapiya

Member
Sep 14, 2017
24
41
San Diego
It blinks a few extra times if the lane change happens immediately. If it thinks for a second or two before changing lanes, the blinker stops immediately when established in the lane. I'm on v8.1 2018.4.18
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,328
4,427
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
The 3 is designed to have a turn stalk that is momentary (i.e. not mechanically locked) and turned off by the EAP when the lane change has completed. Its a good idea, and works very well IMO. It just has those three extra blinks!!! Does anybody think thats a good idea for the AP to wait once established fully in the new lane for three blinks before it decides to turn off the blinker? Clearly this is programmed behavior that somebody chose.
It's based upon stupid law. In practice, most drivers who follow the signalling law correctly turn off the signal when communicating the lane change is complete, wihch is when the lane repositioning has been so substantially completed that there's no going back. However, the law geeks interpret the law in such a way that they say the signal must be active until completion of the lane change. The actual writing of the law says you must have the signal on until entirely into the new lane. The law geeks claim that that's the same thing as completion of the lane change, however, even that discounts the full good center-biased positioning within the new lane that takes time to achieve from having been fully in the lane that the law nominally requires. That's mudied by the fact the law as written probably says lane change complete. That's properly discounted by the drivers who realize that the stated purpose of the law is to communicate to other drivers your intent, and that intent is a good communication up to the time that you're already almost completely into the new lane, but if the blinker remains on while completing the last few inches of lane changing, that the communication becomes faulty, since it could be misinterpreted to be changing into another lane. Back when cars had lots of distance between them and were large and beautiful back when the law was written, this was no problem, since you could clearly see the car start the blinker, move from one lane to the other, and stop the blinker, with no intervening obstacles to that view. These days, with so much traffic to road ratio (huge compaction), all you ever catch of any car is a fleeting glipse in a freeze image state of a car moving in four dimensions, and you have to interpret meaning from a single image, and there, the extra blinker on while achieving the final few inch positining becomes dangerous misinformation, miscommunicating a new lane change that is not going to happen. Good drivers know this, which is most seasoned commute drivers.

The Tesla needs to fix this.

This is simple stuff that any Californian American driver who was out of diapers before the 1980s would already know well. However, to the Uber generation, they might Uber, BART, and Shuttle to work and have no idea what driving standards exist, and just "leave it to the lawyers" to write the driving programs. No wonder Tesla autopilots are having trouble figuring out how to drive safely.
 
Last edited:

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,645
7,813
Maine
It's based upon stupid law. In practice, most drivers who follow the signalling law correctly turn off the signal when communicating the lane change is complete, wihch is when the lane repositioning has been so substantially completed that there's no going back. However, the law geeks interpret the law in such a way that they say the signal must be active until completion of the lane change. The actual writing of the law says you must have the signal on until entirely into the new lane. The law geeks claim that that's the same thing as completion of the lane change, however, even that discounts the full good center-biased positioning within the new lane that takes time to achieve from having been fully in the lane that the law nominally requires. That's mudied by the fact the law as written probably says lane change complete. That's properly discounted by the drivers who realize that the stated purpose of the law is to communicate to other drivers your intent, and that intent is a good communication up to the time that you're already almost completely into the new lane, but if the blinker remains on while completing the last few inches of lane changing, that the communication becomes faulty, since it could be misinterpreted to be changing into another lane. Back when cars had lots of distance between them and were large and beautiful back when the law was written, this was no problem, since you could clearly see the car start the blinker, move from one lane to the other, and stop the blinker, with no intervening obstacles to that view. These days, with so much traffic to road ratio (huge compaction), all you ever catch of any car is a fleeting glipse in a freeze image state of a car moving in four dimensions, and you have to interpret meaning from a single image, and there, the extra blinker on while achieving the final few inch positining becomes dangerous misinformation, miscommunicating a new lane change that is not going to happen. Good drivers know this, which is most seasoned commute drivers.

The Tesla needs to fix this.

This is simple stuff that any Californian American driver who was out of diapers before the 1980s would already know well. However, to the Uber generation, they might Uber, BART, and Shuttle to work and have no idea what driving standards exist, and just "leave it to the lawyers" to write the driving programs. No wonder Tesla autopilots are having trouble figuring out how to drive safely.

I disagree with you. You haven't finished the lane change until you've completed the maneuver. Maneuvers are the most dangerous point in driving. I get that there could be confusion that you might want to move over again, but there could also be confusion if you _don't_ have your turn signal on because significant corrections in your lane could be interpreted as erratic driving and a threat to other drivers.
 

LoL Rick

Like Buttah
Apr 21, 2014
944
1,224
Land O Lakes, FL
FWIW, my 3 on AP will not change lanes with the half activation(standard 3 blinks) as you are describing in your experience. It will only change lanes with the full stalk push and click. It will blink 3 times and stop blinking on its own with a half stalk push while remaining in its current lane. I have not noticed the blinker staying on for three extra blinks after executing the lane change.

I”ll check again, maybe I’m doing the full push because it does (usually) execute the auto lane change while blinking plus the three gratuitous additional blinks.

Same with mine. It requires a full blinker push.
It will change lanes with a half push. But you have to hold it there until the car is more than 50% into the new lane. It will generally start the lane change after about 4 to 5 clicks. If you let go before 50% complete it will dramatically swerve back to the original lane. I've had this happen a couple times including once yesterday. I grabbed the wheel and completed the lane change but it probably looked to the people around me like I was drunk.

Getting back to @pilotSteve 's original point, if you use the half push and let go while the change is partially complete, the signal does continue to blink until completion plus 3 more blinks. Maybe required by law but still annoying.
 
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rhaekar

Member
Nov 9, 2017
455
367
San Diego
I never noticed until you pointed it out, now I notice every time. Doesn't really bother me too much but I started counting the extra clicks since I've got nothing better to do with autopilot on.
 

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