Thoughts on Yoke from Plaid owner

[DayTrippin]

@Plaid to Mod 3 - Good luck with the 3. I have an '22 S and a '22 3. I can't say I am a yoke fan and having flown with both sticks and yokes for many years, I'll just say Tesla screwed up the implementation of the yoke and removal of the stalks was an even bigger sin. Every time I'd get back in my 3, it would remind me of how much I disliked the stalkless yoke implementation. It was my pretty much my sole area of buyer's remorse. I went with the Hansshow wheel to correct that issue but still hate the onscreen shifting controls.

For a daily driver, in heavy city traffic most of the time, I like the 3 better. On the highway the S is very nice cruiser. Overall there were a lot more QC issues with my S than my 3. The absolutely biggest downside to me on a daily basis is the lack of cooled seats. It has been in the low hundred range for temps every day. Cockpit temps in the 3 are in the 140's or higher lately. I absolutely curse Tesla every day for not having a cooled/ventilated seat option on the 3. Twenty to thirty minutes of driving, after getting into those hot seats and you have the makings of swamp butt in short order. I am searching seat cover options now to find better airflow. If the S seats would fit in the 3, I'll probably search out a wrecked S to do the swap. Don't know if they do fit, or if anyone has tried it, but need to find some relief in this area.

 

[strider]

Didn't the plane have a yoke?

An aircraft yoke does not move beyond 90 degrees in either direction and even then you only actually move it that far when you are preflighting (on the ground) and making sure the controls are "free and correct." This is the crucial failure of the Tesla yoke. They did not implement steer by wire or a variable steering rack. You still have the turn the yoke 2.3 turns and we do that fairly often in cars. It's during these tight maneuvers that the yoke falls apart IMO.

Lexus is implementing their yoke in the correct way. It is a steer by wire system and is .8 turns lock-lock.

Really? How much to swap in a full steering wheel with stalks while not voiding Tesla warranty? Where can one get this retrofit?

No option for stalks but the Hansshow wheel (and I assume many others) are built on Tesla OEM yokes and use your existing airbag and electronics. I am in for $1,600, which includes a $450 charge to keep my old yoke for future sale/trade-in.

This will absolutely NOT void your warranty. I took my MX in for service a couple weeks ago with the Hansshow wheel and no one said a thing. They fixed my issue and sent me on my way.

Tesla will eliminate stalks across the line as a cost-saving measure.

 

[Hayseed_MS]

Since he is trading his car in today and his personal complaints have become moot, can we wad up this train wreck of a thread and launch into space? Or at least nuke it from orbit?

Glad for him that he has a car he can be happy with and drive unfatigued.

 

[strider]

Since he is trading his car in today and his personal complaints have become moot, can we wad up this train wreck of a thread and launch into space? Or at least nuke it from orbit?

Glad for him that he has a car he can be happy with and drive unfatigued.

I agree that we are rehashing the yoke with regularity. However, this is par for Internet forums. New people are joining all the time and some have come in here and learned something. No one is forcing you to read the thread. If you don't like the discussion, don't participate.

 

[Nosken]

Lexus is implementing their yoke in the correct way. It is a steer by wire system and is .8 turns lock-lock.

Could this be done via Software in the future, since it turns the wheel in AP, or is limited by a physical steering box?

 

[JaeTheDev]

Hello, here is a email I just sent to [email protected] in case it is of any value to other owners or potential owners of the Mod S:

Hello, I am an owner of the 2022 Mod S Plaid since Mar 22 and have some feedback after multiple road trips and 5,000 miles.

I am planning on selling my Plaid next week at a 40K loss and buying a Mod 3, which is disappointing because I really like everything about the Plaid minus the yoke. You guys did a really good job on that car.

I have noticed on road trips that the Plaid is the most fatiguing car I have ever driven by far. This is because there is no balance points on the yoke as there is on a 360 degree steering wheel. Also, the driver position can not be easily modified to release blood flow into different parts of the body, as it can with a 360 degree steering wheel.

Over the last Month or so, I have driven my Plaid from Southern CA to WA and from WA to OR several times. It is highly fatiguing to operate manually to the point where I am forced have the autopilot on nearly all the time.

I like the autopilot and I think it does a pretty good job. My problem is that I do not want to be forced into using the autopilot all the time because I can not operate the car in a reasonable or efficient way manually. I was formerly a US Air Force pilot and while automated features such as autopilot are very nice, there is simply no substitute for being able to manually operate the vehicle when needed or wanted. The most dangerous pilots I ever flew with were the ones that had to rely so much on autopilot because there were not very skilled in manually operating the aircraft. Every once in a while the autopilot puts me in a bad position on the road, a position I would not have put myself, and that is going to equate to more accidents over time. This is unacceptable in my opinion. The driver experience becomes exclusively reacting to what the computer is going to do next and this is also fatiguing over long periods of time.

For instance, on my last road trip a couple of days ago, I challenged myself to take the car off autopilot for 5 minutes a couple of time. Within 15 seconds I had the autopilot back on because of how fatiguing the yoke is for long trips. Do you put your hand on the right side? The Left side? Evern worse, do you put you hands on both sides and see which ones weighs do the yoke faster. Also there is no ability so shift driving positions to change blood flow in the body in those positions.

In addition, the car is so much fun to drive and a steering wheel would allow the operator to drive the car more, which is good, enjoyable, and fun with this car.

As stated above, next week I am selling my Plaid at a 40K loss and moving into a Mod 3. I'd really rather not have to do this and I have heard rumblings that a steering wheel replacement option may become available for the Mod S soon. If this it the case, please let me know. I'd hate to sell my Plaid to later find this out because I really like the car otherwise.

As state above, I was a US Air Force pilot for a while so I may have a better sense of human ergonomics and interactions with equipment than most.

Please forward this feedback to the highest level possible and let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thank you for your time, and thank you for helping the world shift to sustainable energy.

Not sure if this was shared with you as i didnt go through all the comments here, but here is a fix,

$1500-2000 instead of a $40k loss.

Hansshow Round Steering Wheel for Model S,X Yoke | Get your Design Now

Circle Round design for tesla carbon fiber steering wheel.Combination of 100% genuine leather and real carbon fiber two materials,create fantastic interior kits.

www.hautopart.com

 

[Murtaya]

Could this be done via Software in the future, since it turns the wheel in AP, or is limited by a physical steering box?

I think only the Lexus has a steer-by-wire system (and two of them for back up, at that). So I don't think we'll be seeing a software update to adjust steering ratios.

Not sure if this was shared with you as i didnt go through all the comments here, but here is a fix,

$1500-2000 instead of a $40k loss.

Hansshow Round Steering Wheel for Model S,X Yoke | Get your Design Now

Circle Round design for tesla carbon fiber steering wheel.Combination of 100% genuine leather and real carbon fiber two materials,create fantastic interior kits.

www.hautopart.com

A while ago I put together a list of known yoke alternatives in this thread (with images and information regarding heating support, install effort required, etc.), if it's useful to anybody:

List of Available Wheel Replacements for Yoke

The goal of this page is to detail the available wheel replacements for the yoke currently offered in Model S and Model S vehicles. This was not created as a place to debate people's opinions on the subject, but only as a resource for people looking to find more information on possible yoke...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[JaeTheDev]

I think only the Lexus has a steer-by-wire system (and two of them for back up, at that). So I don't think we'll be seeing a software update to adjust steering ratios.



A while ago I put together a list of known yoke alternatives in this thread (with images and information regarding heating support, install effort required, etc.), if it's useful to anybody:

List of Available Wheel Replacements for Yoke

The goal of this page is to detail the available wheel replacements for the yoke currently offered in Model S and Model S vehicles. This was not created as a place to debate people's opinions on the subject, but only as a resource for people looking to find more information on possible yoke...

teslamotorsclub.com

Great work! I’m in a 21 MYP right now but I am about to trade for a 21 MSLR. I have used a yoke in a 3, but not in its intended vehicle yet. The list comes in handy in case I end up in the same boat. Well done!

 

[strider]

Could this be done via Software in the future, since it turns the wheel in AP, or is limited by a physical steering box?

Sadly not. In the Tesla there is a mechanical connection from the steering column to the rack. They made no changes to the steering system on the S/X as part of the refresh - they just changed out the part that we hold. AP spins the entire steering column, which is why the wheel/yoke moves.

In the early Infiniti steer by wire system, there was a clutch in the steering column that separated the wheel from the rack. As long as it was powered, there was no mechanical connection. If the system lost power, the clutch would spring shut and allow you to steer the car directly (though without power steering assist).

As @Murtaya said, in the Lexus system there is no mechanical connection at all. Instead they have redundant systems with their own battery in case main power fails. A maintenance nightmare down the road to maintain and replace all of these supplemental batteries but it does allow a ton of tuning to be done via software.

 

[DayTrippin]

They could have even gone with a variable ratio steering system not had the complexity of steer by wire. Honda did it a long time ago and I mentioned it in another thread.

Here is a press release from that time. Wayyyyyy back in 1997. So to say Tesla couldn't have done better is total BS. The technology has been around for a long time.

Honda Global | July 2, 1997 Electric Power Steering System with Variable Gear Ratio Development Objectives

Honda Global | Electric Power Steering System with Variable Gear Ratio Development Objectives

global.honda

 

[vcor]

I believe Tesla has been using variable-ratio steering since 2012. I also think it's common in most premium cars today. See the Model S manual page 191 (manual software version 2022.16): "Variable ratio rack and pinion with electronic power steering, speed sensitive"

 

[MD500_Pilot]

I recently purchased my Model S Plaid having had the Model S 100D before this and I actually love the new steering wheel. Like you, I am also a vet (USMC for me) and a pilot (Blackhawks/MD500s on the helo side, Gulfstream G550 on the fixed-wing side) and while I appreciate your sentiments about the autopilot in aircraft (I love to hand fly), I really enjoy the use of the autopilot on the Tesla.

I recently made my first long trip in the new MS. San Diego to Phoenix with my 1-year-old grandson, my daughter, and my son-in-law. I spent a great deal of time hand 'flying' the car, at one point several hours in one go because I enjoyed it so much. I love the fact that the turn signal stalks are gone, things are much cleaner and neater, less cluttered. For me, these were selling points of the car, not drawbacks. I equate it to moving up to the G550 and the Planeview platform from old steam gauges, the new tech, and the new layout were why I spent the insane amount of money these things cost. While the trip was only 7 hours (thanks to my grandson), I did not have any blood loss or uncomfortable sensations, I rest my hand on the bottom of the wheel and it all seemed fine.

In the end, I think that each driver, like each pilot, will approach the car with their own perceptions. I fly with pilots that absolutely hate the Planeview system in the G550, they lament about how the 'old steam gauges' were the way to go and the 'children of the magenta line' don't know what 'real' flying is all about, yet I have yet to see any new aircraft with steam gauges but what I do see is an overall decrease in aircraft incidents and accidents and a decrease in airspace incursions. I think the tech is to thank for a lot of that.

I think we will see a continuing trend with Tesla and others to simplify layouts (no stalks, no gear levers, etc) as the trend towards FSD becomes more of a reality and less of a novelty.

As to the steering wheel, Knight Rider was one of my all-time favorites, and while I didn't name my car KITT, I still absolutely love the wheel.

 

[Wol747]

I can't honestly remember anyone lamenting the disappearance of the steam gauges! The glass cockpit was in almost all respects a vast improvement - but it had ergonomics at the forefront. And it's easy to forget the number of hull losses that have been caused by driver error compounded by complexity of the modes etc (AF into the trees, AF into the Atlantic, two 737 Maxes, SFO seawall, the Airbus in the snowstorm and so on.)
But, IMO, horses for courses. Much as I love tech, I love it not for its own sake but only when it improves something - a concept which appears to have been condemned to history.

 

[ThomasD]

An aircraft yoke does not move beyond 90 degrees in either direction and even then you only actually move it that far when you are preflighting (on the ground) and making sure the controls are "free and correct." This is the crucial failure of the Tesla yoke. They did not implement steer by wire or a variable steering rack. You still have the turn the yoke 2.3 turns and we do that fairly often in cars. It's during these tight maneuvers that the yoke falls apart IMO.

Lexus is implementing their yoke in the correct way. It is a steer by wire system and is .8 turns lock-lock.

No option for stalks but the Hansshow wheel (and I assume many others) are built on Tesla OEM yokes and use your existing airbag and electronics. I am in for $1,600, which includes a $450 charge to keep my old yoke for future sale/trade-in.

This will absolutely NOT void your warranty. I took my MX in for service a couple weeks ago with the Hansshow wheel and no one said a thing. They fixed my issue and sent me on my way.

Tesla will eliminate stalks across the line as a cost-saving measure.

There is no steering shaft in the Lexus?

 

[Murtaya]

I believe Tesla has been using variable-ratio steering since 2012. I also think it's common in most premium cars today. See the Model S manual page 191 (manual software version 2022.16): "Variable ratio rack and pinion with electronic power steering, speed sensitive"

I think there's a lot of confusion when people hear "variable ratio steering". My understanding is that the variable ratio steering you see on most cars today (including probably the Teslas like you mention above) is just steering that lets the steering-wheel-to-ground-wheel angle ratios change the more you turn the steering wheel (so turning the steering wheel a little near its center rest position doesn't adjust the angle of the tires near as much as when the steering wheel is near full lock, etc.). But at any given steering wheel angle, the ratio does not change. For example, a 15 degree steering ratio angle will always result in a 1 degree ground wheel angle, etc. (but a 30 degree steering wheel angle might result a 4 degree ground wheel angle change).

The Lexus system will actually change the ratios used at any given steering wheel angle (based on speed, I believe). So if you're at parking lot speeds, a 15 degree steering wheel angle could result in a huge 40 degree ground wheel angle for quick slow speed turns, but if you're on the highway, that same 15 degree steering wheel angle might only rotate the ground wheels by 1 degree (all these numbers I'm making up for the example; I'm not sure the actual values).

And then there's speed sensitive steering, which is how much power assist is given to the steering system...

There is no steering shaft in the Lexus?

It sounds like there are no steering shafts, correct:

One article from Torshinsky (one of Tesla's biggest fans )

Lexus's Steering Yoke Is Very Different Than Tesla's But It's Still Pointless - The Autopian

Last year, when Tesla introduced a steering yoke instead of a traditional wheel on its refreshed Model S, I wasn’t a big fan. I’ve driven cars with yoke-style wheels, and — while they may work in specialized, usually racing contexts — in the real world where you have to back up and make...

www.theautopian.com

And another one from Motor Authority:

Lexus’ yoke and steer-by-wire system paves the way to the future

Steer-by-wire could enable playing onboard video games, while the new yoke has more advantages than expected.

www.motorauthority.com

 

[_Redshift_]

I believe Tesla has been using variable-ratio steering since 2012. I also think it's common in most premium cars today. See the Model S manual page 191 (manual software version 2022.16): "Variable ratio rack and pinion with electronic power steering, speed sensitive"

That’s not the same thing, though. The feature you’d want will shorten the lock to lock degrees.

Variable ratio steering makes it easy to turn the steering in varying vehicle speeds. Not as aggressive as the feature above. It does have variable ratio, but not as aggressive as the Lexus system would be.

 

[Wol747]

I think mswlogo has decided to leave the thread, but I can't leave his posts up in the air.

>>It doesn’t take a math genius to see a wheel will NOT be turning more than probably 20 degrees in a massive rotary like your showing. You be very smooth and relaxed maneuver. Perhaps you make it more punishing with your driving habits.<<

BS!

For a start he obviously didn't look at the photo - it does have a "massive rotary" but that's not the issue - that encompasses several mini roundabouts within itself. It's not alone in the UK, either. Locals "get used to" it but drivers unfamiliar with them get horribly confused and blinkers are essential to indicate where everyone intends to go.
His "20 degrees" of wheel/yoke turning is just rubbish. So much so that I have just driven 20Km out and back to the only small roundabout near here (I'm "country") and negotiated it with a sticker on the top of the wheel. The wheel turn was about 340 degrees - virtually a whole revolution - and this roundabout isn't actually a mini one: small, but not that small. The common minis in many countries are very efficient and would require a full wheel revolution.
It's obviously each to his own, but to me Tesla is losing the plot on safety grounds with this.

 

[DayTrippin]

... I recently made my first long trip in the new MS. San Diego to Phoenix with my 1-year-old grandson, my daughter, and my son-in-law. I spent a great deal of time hand 'flying' the car, at one point several hours in one go because I enjoyed it so much. I love the fact that the turn signal stalks are gone, things are much cleaner and neater, less cluttered. For me, these were selling points of the car, not drawbacks. I equate it to moving up to the G550 and the Planeview platform from old steam gauges, the new tech, and the new layout were why I spent the insane amount of money these things cost. While the trip was only 7 hours (thanks to my grandson), I did not have any blood loss or uncomfortable sensations, I rest my hand on the bottom of the wheel and it all seemed fine.

In the end, I think that each driver, like each pilot, will approach the car with their own perceptions. I fly with pilots that absolutely hate the Planeview system in the G550, they lament about how the 'old steam gauges' were the way to go and the 'children of the magenta line' don't know what 'real' flying is all about, yet I have yet to see any new aircraft with steam gauges but what I do see is an overall decrease in aircraft incidents and accidents and a decrease in airspace incursions. I think the tech is to thank for a lot of that.

I think we will see a continuing trend with Tesla and others to simplify layouts (no stalks, no gear levers, etc) as the trend towards FSD becomes more of a reality and less of a novelty...

The problem typically is not the yoke in normal cruising down the highway mode, with no gear changes required. It would be hard to mess that scenario up, even for Tesla. You could use skid steering or toe brakes, and still be tolerable. I have no issues on trips with the yoke.

The simplified stalk layout becomes a liability when you need to make a quick forward/reverse change and and an inconvenience in other situations such as 3 point turns. We are so far away from FSD being something other than the snake oil Elon has been peddling, I doubt we'll see it in the next 5 years and unlikely with the current hardware stack in the S. Tesla has already contracted with Samsungs for better cameras.

I'd love to put some of the people here in a controlled test environment and see how well they respond in emergency situations with the yoke vs a wheel. Situations where you need precise control and more than about a 70-80 degree turn of the yoke. I bet the results of the yoke would look like your results when you take off your mask in a hypobaric chamber and are suffering from hypoxia and try and color between the lines.

If the yoke was best solution for tight turns, they would have used it on the Pike's Peak runs. You don't see Randy Probst rocking a yoke up the mountain.

 

[Nosken]

The problem typically is not the yoke in normal cruising down the highway mode, with no gear changes required. It would be hard to mess that scenario up, even for Tesla. You could use skid steering or toe brakes, and still be tolerable. I have no issues on trips with the yoke.

The simplified stalk layout becomes a liability when you need to make a quick forward/reverse change and and an inconvenience in other situations such as 3 point turns. We are so far away from FSD being something other than the snake oil Elon has been peddling, I doubt we'll see it in the next 5 years and unlikely with the current hardware stack in the S. Tesla has already contracted with Samsungs for better cameras.

I'd love to put some of the people here in a controlled test environment and see how well they respond in emergency situations with the yoke vs a wheel. Situations where you need precise control and more than about a 70-80 degree turn of the yoke. I bet the results of the yoke would look like your results when you take off your mask in a hypobaric chamber and are suffering from hypoxia and try and color between the lines.

If the yoke was best solution for tight turns, they would have used it on the Pike's Peak runs. You don't see Randy Probst rocking a yoke up the mountain.

I don’t know if it makes a difference, but race cars generally have to have a removable steering wheel.

 

[Murtaya]

If I remember correctly, Randy demanded they throw out the yoke and replace it with the wheel after the first run or so.