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Three Phase Recharging

Discussion in 'Roadster: Technical' started by malcolm, Jul 15, 2008.

  1. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    According to this site: 3 Phase Basics three phase conductors need only be 75% the size of conductors for single phase for the same power output, but charging the roadster's battery in an hour would need about three times as much power (assuming no extra for battery cooling) as the present 70A 240V fast charger.

    So if Tesla do go with faster charging (which, according to Elon is only really necessary for 1% of trips) then even with three phase the charging cable will be bulkier/heavier than the present design.

    They will have to design some sort of on-board, powered reel to store, dispense and retract the heavier charging cable - which will add even more weight alongside the fast-charge electronics.

    Shouldn't they be trying to use three phase to help make future cars lighter?
     
  2. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    #2 dpeilow, Jul 15, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
    Not sure where you arrive at 3 times as much power here - the same power is delivered by all three phases combined, not seperately, and it is 1.5 times more efficient too. In addition, the higher voltage means that a lower current can be used for a given power.

    OK read it too fast - you mean 3 times more power to charge in one hour what presently takes 3. Yes true, but other efficiency comment still applies!

    I'm not sure this automatic retractor is necessary. A simple pair of hooks from one side of the car to the other - like the old fashioned vacuum cleaners but horizontal - would be a simpler and neater solution.
     
  3. W8MM

    W8MM R1.5 #325 + Mdl S #01380

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    3-phase power is not really available in residential neighborhoods in most of the USA. 208v 3-phase is really 3 different 120v circuits that are 120 degrees different in phase from one another. 240v single phase is 2 different 120v circuits arranged 180 degrees in phase from each other.

    180 degree phase difference is easy to get with a single transformer fed from a single high-tension primary distribution line. But, 3-phase requires 3 transformers and three high-tension primary lines to each site. 3-phase power is nearly three times as expensive to install and support as single phase and is not likely to spread beyond industrial power users any time soon.

    Mike in Cincinnati
     
  4. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    But as you said 3-phase is the defacto standard in at least Norway and I believe most of Europe for higher power installations. Not many homes has it but mostly any commercial installation has it, so for faster-chargers in Europe it might make sense. Could be a difference between European and US model?

    Cobos
     
  5. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    Yes it could be.

    And then in my dream i could connect it to this
     
  6. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/easy-to-handle-ev-charger-system-provides-80-charge-in-ten-minutes/
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2010/07/rapid_charge_recharging_station_for_electric_vehicles.html
     
  8. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    This user was instantly vaporized.
     
  9. tdelta1000

    tdelta1000 Active Member

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  10. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    I Germany, every household has it. At least the cooking oven is connected to 3 phases and allows to you at least three heating plates to cokk at full power of 3kW = 16A.
    In my garage was a 400V/32A installed, 20 years ago. Yesterday i charged on 400V/32A i had to wait five hours to get my car charged to 70%. I can only use 1 phase in star = 220V/32A. Using all three phases means 1/3 of charging time. And I had only to wat 1h40min. Only this would make longdistance drive possible.
     
  11. EV_de

    EV_de Model SP10/XP9 EU ZOE#47

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    ... like I said month ago ... 3 - phase charging must be possible ( at least for the Model S ) ,
    cause more than [email protected] Amps are unrealistic in Germany.
    .
    .
     
  12. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    3 phase is a must in europe. i want my roadster to be updated to three phase. no longer need to see the parking of Grand Dolder in zürich, the only place i know how provide 230V/64A for 3.5h charge. Even less what would be possible with my home charge of 3x32A at 230V
     
  13. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    Totally agree but from all I have heard this will never happen from Tesla for the Roadster. Maybe if enough customers ask with enough vigor they will change their minds.
     
  14. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    if i have to swap my batteriepack in two to three years time, i want to share the same cell-technologie like the model-S. this means i may grade up to at least 75 kWh. Then i will have even more need for 3-phase charging.
     
  15. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    #16 AndrewBissell, Dec 12, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
    @Eberhard - suggestion: tell Tesla! They need to hear from some demanding European customers. Otherwise their offering will always naturally be influenced by what is close to home in America where three-phase at the home is virtually unknown (completely opposite to Germany).
     
  16. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    I agree with Andrew. You European folks should let Tesla know that 3 phase charging is something you want, otherwise it probably won't happen.
     
  17. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Where are the five phase systems?
     
  18. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    there is no 5 pahse system, but you need 5 lines 1-3 = phase 4 = zero or null 5 = earth. I keep telling any staff of tesla in munic and zürich. My impression is, that the people of Tesla Europe knows quite well what is going on here. Even for america may be important. But i think, future will be DC charging. But it is very simple to convert 3 phase 400V/32A AC to 400V DC at 50A. Only the noise left on AC may be a problem (same as today)
     
  19. dwegmull

    dwegmull 2013 Model S 85

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    I wonder how compact and affordable a static (as opposed to rotary) 3 phase to 1 phase converter would be. Such a box would plug into three phase supply and provide 220V/50A single phase... I know the opposite is routinely done to run 3phase motors on single phase outlets...
     

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