Time for a new HV Battery

[vcor]

Perhaps another way to look at it is how the frequency of charging affects longevity. Unlike older battery technologies, Lithium-Ion cells are rated with a total number of charge cycles. Let's say the battery is specified for 1000 charge cycles. This is from 100% to 0% and 0% to 100% (the SOC thresholds are specified by the battery manufacturer, and 0% is not 0V which would kill the cells). In simple terms, if you charge from 100% to 50% then 50% to 100%, that's considered a 1/2 charge cycle, and you can do this for 2000 cycles. Charge from 60% to 50% then 50% to 60% and you can do this for 10,000 cycles.

So if you have a small battery that must be charged and discharged frequently in a PHEV, you need to set more limits to get more cycle life.
There are other factors for longevity, but hopefully, it makes better sense. As others point out, leaving SOC at 100% or 0% for a longer period of time is bad too, and should be done sparingly. Temperature is also quite important and the vehicle should regulate that as needed, or life is reduced.

I expect Tesla is quite a bit ahead of everyone else in managing the battery for longevity, but others are catching up. Then again, so many new EVs and companies producing EVs are new to the game, I'm not as sure they got it right. It may take a few iterations, as Tesla did with the 2008 Roadster.

 

[NV Ray]

Perhaps another way to look at it is how the frequency of charging affects longevity. Unlike older battery technologies, Lithium-Ion cells are rated with a total number of charge cycles. Let's say the battery is specified for 1000 charge cycles. This is from 100% to 0% and 0% to 100% (the SOC thresholds are specified by the battery manufacturer, and 0% is not 0V which would kill the cells). In simple terms, if you charge from 100% to 50% then 50% to 100%, that's considered a 1/2 charge cycle, and you can do this for 2000 cycles. Charge from 60% to 50% then 50% to 60% and you can do this for 10,000 cycles.

So if you have a small battery that must be charged and discharged frequently in a PHEV, you need to set more limits to get more cycle life.
There are other factors for longevity, but hopefully, it makes better sense. As others point out, leaving SOC at 100% or 0% for a longer period of time is bad too, and should be done sparingly. Temperature is also quite important and the vehicle should regulate that as needed, or life is reduced.

I expect Tesla is quite a bit ahead of everyone else in managing the battery for longevity, but others are catching up. Then again, so many new EVs and companies producing EVs are new to the game, I'm not as sure they got it right. It may take a few iterations, as Tesla did with the 2008 Roadster.

Thanks. Clears it up a bit.

 

[ucmndd]

So, if i generally charge my p85d from 25% to 50% daily, after four days is that considered the equivalent of 1 charge cycle?

Yes

 

[aerodyne]

So, if i generally charge my p85d from 25% to 50% daily, after four days is that considered the equivalent of 1 charge cycle?

Actually, and you can look this up....

It's one charge cycle, but like 1/4 as much wear on the cells as one cycle going from say 10-90% .

 

[howardc64]

So if you have a small battery that must be charged and discharged frequently in a PHEV, you need to set more limits to get more cycle life.

Hybrids has a huge option to be very conservative for battery health. They can just run ICE more often. Its like a gradual slider down to 0% electric use. I'm guessing this is where Toyota succeeded and most other hybrids failed. But of course, less electric use = lower gas mileage but people seem to generally accept that better than not working car.

 

[thefrog1394]

Hybrids has a huge option to be very conservative for battery health. They can just run ICE more often. Its like a gradual slider down to 0% electric use. I'm guessing this is where Toyota succeeded and most other hybrids failed. But of course, less electric use = lower gas mileage but people seem to generally accept that better than not working car.

Toyota is also conservative. That's how they continue to set the bar for reliability year after year. If there's a choice between squeezing a few more mpg or a little bit more performance out of a drivetrain at the expense of reliability, they err on the side of reliability.

 

[howardc64]

Toyota is also conservative. That's how they continue to set the bar for reliability year after year. If there's a choice between squeezing a few more mpg or a little bit more performance out of a drivetrain at the expense of reliability, they err on the side of reliability.

Yep. I personally think Toyota hybrids is "primed" in position to take marketshare. People say they are not into EVs but they've actually been hedging the technology with a complete but gutless EV in Prius since 2001. They've had to tackle electric steering rack, electric braking system pressure pump. electric AC pump since that time and pure EVs inherited some of this tech maturation. Now they get to ride on EV's LiOn battery scale price drop and "prime" all their cars. Keeping battery small to limit cost, maintain profit margin, and can be ultra conservative to maintain battery health with a dual drive train. Smaller battery capacity also enable a reasonable new battery replacement cost at 10-15 year mark.

My 2011 Prius drives like a dog... However, gradual scaling on the lower cost end of the EV components make the newer models less of a dog. 2023 Prius does 0-60 in 7s haha.

As you say, conservative in every way for both reliability and profit margin

I've done all maintenance on my Prius. There is the gas portion (normal gas engine maintenance + fairly complex EGR system (for clean emissions) cleaning at 100k miles) AND the EV portion (inverter coolant + pump at 150k miles). Quite clear nearly 2x complexity faced by other manufacturers attempting this hedge hybrid tech. BTW, gas engine's higher mpg effort has drastically reduced its reliability. Nearly all manufacturers faced oil burning engine converting to thinner less friction 0W-20 oil. Direct injection coats intake valves with carbon deposits creating misfires. And smaller engine displacement for mpg + turbo for power adds the whole turbo+PCV complexity. Not a pretty sight haha.

 

[NV Ray]

Another casualty to the BMS_u029 error message. Taken yesterday from the my Facebook Group page (Tesla BMS_u029 | Facebook)

"Bad luck. 2013 P85 119,000 miles first battery replaced at 88000 miles. Did a factory reset to transfer car to a new buyer and BMS_u029 came up. Sale lost. "

 

[3mp_kwh]

Toyota is also conservative.

Yup. When GM introduced the Volt, the charge window was limited to 65% of its 10.2KWh battery.

 

[juliusa]

Update on my HV battery, 2013 MS 85, 275,000 miles. Got BMS_u029 "Charging Level Limited" message on January 17 while 160 miles from home. I limped home and started looking at options. In the meantime I continued using my car in "Leaf" mode - it would charge to 80 miles.

I decided to replace the battery rather than scrap the car. My highest priority was how long the pack would last (miles). I considered Tesla, 057 Tech, and @Recell. Gruber was too far, and I thought EG was no longer doing battery replacements.

As best I can tell, all three follow pretty much the same process of putting together packs based on similar good modules, and then swapping with your pack. Gruber seems to be different in they repair your pack by replacing cells or modules. I'm sure there are nuances, and each does it the way they think is best. Who provides better packs? Time will tell - I doubt many replacement packs have failed, and hard to draw conclusions with such a small sample size.

I quickly ruled out Tesla. My current replacement pack from them lasted 57,000 miles and they offered to do the same thing again. About 40% more expensive than the non-Tesla choices.

I communicated with 057 and recell, and ultimately decided on recell. Similar pricing, convenience of location, and I thought both were well qualified to do the work based on what others had posted. A friend had used 057 to pro-actively swap their pack and was very satisfied.

Recell could do the work right away, fixed price, and offered a warranty the same as Tesla - 4 years/50k miles. 057 was at least several weeks out, pricing dependent on condition of my battery, and no warranty - at least that was my understanding. I only had a few preliminary email exchanges with 057, so may have gotten part of it wrong.

January 27 (Friday) I signed an agreement with Recell.
January 28 (Saturday) Car carrier arrived and took my car. Recell arranged it.
February 3 (Friday) Car arrived at Recell (delayed by ice storm).
February 6 (Monday) Recell had replaced pack. Old pack diagnosis: One failed and one failing module.
February 7-9 Recell tested, conditioned, took it to a supercharger, and made sure everything was working properly.
February 9 Recell asked for payment. They had asked for no payment up to this point.
February 13 (2 days from now) I arrive San Antonio for pickup

The experience with Recell has been excellent. They respond to my emails right away, and also emailed me with progress updates and pictures. 2000 mile drive home will be a good shakedown!

 

[NV Ray]

Update on my HV battery, 2013 MS 85, 275,000 miles. Got BMS_u029 "Charging Level Limited" message on January 17 while 160 miles from home. I limped home and started looking at options. In the meantime I continued using my car in "Leaf" mode - it would charge to 80 miles.

I decided to replace the battery rather than scrap the car. My highest priority was how long the pack would last (miles). I considered Tesla, 057 Tech, and @Recell. Gruber was too far, and I thought EG was no longer doing battery replacements.

As best I can tell, all three follow pretty much the same process of putting together packs based on similar good modules, and then swapping with your pack. Gruber seems to be different in they repair your pack by replacing cells or modules. I'm sure there are nuances, and each does it the way they think is best. Who provides better packs? Time will tell - I doubt many replacement packs have failed, and hard to draw conclusions with such a small sample size.

I quickly ruled out Tesla. My current replacement pack from them lasted 57,000 miles and they offered to do the same thing again. About 40% more expensive than the non-Tesla choices.

I communicated with 057 and recell, and ultimately decided on recell. Similar pricing, convenience of location, and I thought both were well qualified to do the work based on what others had posted. A friend had used 057 to pro-actively swap their pack and was very satisfied.

Recell could do the work right away, fixed price, and offered a warranty the same as Tesla - 4 years/50k miles. 057 was at least several weeks out, pricing dependent on condition of my battery, and no warranty - at least that was my understanding. I only had a few preliminary email exchanges with 057, so may have gotten part of it wrong.

January 27 (Friday) I signed an agreement with Recell.
January 28 (Saturday) Car carrier arrived and took my car. Recell arranged it.
February 3 (Friday) Car arrived at Recell (delayed by ice storm).
February 6 (Monday) Recell had replaced pack. Old pack diagnosis: One failed and one failing module.
February 7-9 Recell tested, conditioned, took it to a supercharger, and made sure everything was working properly.
February 9 Recell asked for payment. They had asked for no payment up to this point.
February 13 (2 days from now) I arrive San Antonio for pickup

The experience with Recell has been excellent. They respond to my emails right away, and also emailed me with progress updates and pictures. 2000 mile drive home will be a good shakedown!

Yes, @Recell seems to be a preferred 3rd party vendor. Cost?

On "Old pack diagnosis: One failed and one failing module", I'm assuming one brick failed in addition to the failing module.

 

[aerodyne]

Yes, @Recell seems to be a preferred 3rd party vendor. Cost?

On "Old pack diagnosis: One failed and one failing module", I'm assuming one brick failed in addition to the failing module.

It would be helpful if you could provide more info on the failure. Moisture intrusion? Failed capacitors or BMB board solder problems?

 

[NV Ray]

It would be helpful if you could provide more info on the failure. Moisture intrusion? Failed capacitors or BMB board solder problems?

Not me. Ask @tes-s

 

[juliusa]

On "Old pack diagnosis: One failed and one failing module", I'm assuming one brick failed in addition to the failing module.

It would be helpful if you could provide more info on the failure. Moisture intrusion? Failed capacitors or BMB board solder problems?

They didn't say anything about bricks. Just modules. I'm assuming they do their diagnostics at the module level.

No more detailed information about the failure, other than long-term signs of overheating. Most of my miles are on road trips with supercharging, with the battery usually between 20% and 70%, rarely below 10% or over 90%.

 

[NV Ray]

They didn't say anything about bricks. Just modules. I'm assuming they do their diagnostics at the module level.

No more detailed information about the failure, other than long-term signs of overheating. Most of my miles are on road trips with supercharging, with the battery usually between 20% and 70%, rarely below 10% or over 90%.

Glad it went well and your back in business. Appreciate the update.

 

[juliusa]

It would be helpful if you could provide more info on the failure. Moisture intrusion? Failed capacitors or BMB board solder problems?

To be honest, I was more focused on the replacement battery than my old battery, so had never really asked for more information. Remember, bricks, modules and other battery terminology is pretty much greek to most owners, so they provided the general description of one failed and one failing module. If you bring your car to them, I'm sure @Recell and the other third-party battery replacement companies can give you a very detailed description of the pack failure, and even the likely causes. Tesla did not when I asked about my pack that they replaced.

They did send me a little more info on my pack failure. Hope this helps.

"The failed module was a specific issue of a failed brick - bms_u029 - one or more cells in the brick were self-discharging/weak short, in turn reducing the Ah capacity. The second module had reduced capacity, and likely on the same path to failure." In a previous message they said from what they saw it was likely due to high heat during charging. The pack was a remanufactured pack I got from Tesla and only had it for 57k miles, so don't have any idea about the history of the pack / modules, or the Tesla remanufacture process. Only lasting 57k miles may indicate Tesla's remanufacture process and/or standards are questionable, or could just be bad luck. In fairness to Tesla, a friend got a reman pack in his P85 from Tesla and it was still going at 110k miles when the car was totaled.

 

[AlexP]

I got a bunch of codes in my 2016 Model X

Tesla replaced the battery with a new 90Kwh under warranty. My battery warranty expiration is July 2024. It took around 45 days for the process.

 

[NV Ray]

I got a bunch of codes in my 2016 Model X
View attachment 908999

Tesla replaced the battery with a new 90Kwh under warranty. My battery warranty expiration is July 2024. It around 45 days for the process.

View attachment 909000

Good info, thx.

 

[Droschke]

I got a bunch of codes in my 2016 Model X
View attachment 908999

Tesla replaced the battery with a new 90Kwh under warranty. My battery warranty expiration is July 2024. It around 45 days for the process.

View attachment 909000

Interesting that the new labels don't mention the kWh anymore. Of course we know it's a 90kWh pack since it's a 1014116-00-C.

Enjoy.

 

[tesluv108]

I got a bunch of codes in my 2016 Model X
View attachment 908999

Tesla replaced the battery with a new 90Kwh under warranty. My battery warranty expiration is July 2024. It took around 45 days for the process.

View attachment 909000

Did they give you a loaner? Do you notice any performance differences?