Time for new tires on my dual motor

[DarkNightP3D]

For sure this is the most useful content on this thread which unfortunately is dominated by somebody wants to bash the PS4s as a rock throwing and range destroying crappy tire. But the interesting thing about what you posted is how the Super Sport Formula 1 Goodyear Tire actually outperformed the PS4, although at significant cost in ride and Noise. My car currently with 265 / 30 in front and 275 / 30 in the rear rides about as firmly as I could stand in terms of long distance driving. Does anyone have any information about how well the Supersport Goodyear's hold up on the track?

It is a rock throwing tire that wears out extremely fast, costs $330/tire and causes your range to decrease by 20%... but other than that it’s great.

 

[dfwatt]

It is a rock throwing tire that wears out extremely fast, costs $330/tire and causes your range to decrease by 20%... but other than that it’s great.

You continue to quote a range reduction statistic that no one has ever found. You just have no idea what you're talking about. And speaking of science and facts and all those other inconvenient things that you don't seem to like very much, a significant portion of the range reduction in the 20 in Performance Wheels is actually the aerodynamics of the wheel not the rolling resistance of the tire. Please go lighter on the polemic and longer on facts and data.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

Because it's a fact, and how physics actually works.

You continue to deny those- which is odd.

Especially when I've cited subject matter experts that you refuse to even bother reading.





Again you're pretending you weren't given multiple other sources where they tested nothing but LR cars.

Why do you keep lying about stuff anybody can go 3 posts up and see you are lying about?






Because those only matter in relation to the tire

And you keep ignoring the fact that the multiple tests I've cited were done on professional test tracks in controlled conditions

You keep acting like Motortrend tested the PS4s in the desert in perfect weather but tested the MXM4s on top of Everest in a blizzard or something.

It's bathshit crazy attempts to continue refusing to understand what actually stops a car and that your basic facts are wrong.






Which is a bullshit strawman argument nobody ever made.

I award you zero points.



You said you had lots of evidence for that number.

Then were asked to provide it.

Where is it?






Also a lie.

Most people drive less than 30 miles a day.

The shortest range model 3 goes over 200 on a full charge. 20% would make no difference at all to most people





If by slightly you mean dozens of feet shorter compared to the MXM4 (or lots of other all seasons), sure.




Another lie.

In fact I've specifically recommended the A/S 3+ to a bunch of folks who live places it actually gets cold, but not so much it's worth running 2 sets of tires.

What I recommend to nobody is they stick with the crappy MXM4s though.




More like 30 feet shorter from the numerous mag tests.




No, it does not. Because the suspension doesn't change the friction coefficient between tire and road during maximum braking.

Again you fail to understand how and why cars actually stop and you refuse to read the article that explains it.

See also the folks who've put PS4s tires on their regular Ps or LR AWDs and gotten about the same results the P3D+ guys get for stopping.





You've told this lie twice in the same post. Remarkable.


I cited multiple different magazines who did not test the SR+ in the comparison.

Why keep repeating the same easily debunked lie man?

To say that weight, weight distribution, suspension tuning, road surface, and other factors don’t matter is a gross misunderstanding of the article you like to repeatedly insert. You are oversimplifying things way too much. If you were solely testing tires (not attached to a vehicle) then the tire itself would be the only factor, however on a car you have multiple factors that can change the vehicle’s acceleration and deceleration. Each factor may alter the tire’s ability to bite the road, but those factors themselves are the cause of the change, not the tire. For example... increasing/decreasing vehicle weight, changing weight distribution, modifying suspension all contribute to the vehicle’s stopping distance. Assume two vehicles have the identical set of tires, weigh the same, etc. If you have 99% of the weight on the front axle and 1% on the rear, that car will not stop in the same distance as a car that has a 50/50 weight distribution because the rear tires have no weight on them to bite into the roadway. Put PS4S tires on both and you’ll get different results... Each thing I’ve mentioned (suspension damping, suspension travel, weight, weight distribution, et al.) contribute as much to the vehicle’s stopping distance as the tires themselves.

Nobody is arguing that putting summer performance tires on a car will not increase at the limit handling and shorten stopping distances, but you cannot say that a tire is the ONLY thing that causes a car to stop in a certain distance. A LR AWD 3 and a LR RWD 3 should have slightly different stopping distances even if they’re both equipped with the same tires because they weigh different amounts and the weight distribution is different. You’ve tried to reduce every single part of a car into just “the tires and only the tires matter”. Essentially you’re saying any car that has the same set of tires should stop in the same distance because their friction coefficient is identical. Of course that’s not the case. Regardless, I have no intention to continue arguing with you about this.

 

[dfwatt]

. Regardless, I have no intention to continue arguing with you about this.

Promise?

 

[DarkNightP3D]

You continue to quote a range reduction statistic that no one has ever found. You just have no idea what you're talking about. And speaking of science and facts and all those other inconvenient things that you don't seem to like very much, a significant portion of the range reduction in the 20 in Performance Wheels is actually the aerodynamics of the wheel not the rolling resistance of the tire. Please go lighter on the polemic and longer on facts and data.

So please quote the sources that show the wheel itself is responsible for the majority of the difference... if that was the case people that took their aero covers off of their 18” wheels or those who had the identical style 19” wheels would experience the equal range loss that is experienced by those of us with the 20” wheels and tires.

The rolling resistance of the tire is the single greatest source of energy lost to propelling the vehicle forward other than aerodynamics. The aero covers offered on 18” wheels provides around a 2-3% increase in range vs. the open wheel. The 20” wheels weigh more than the 18” or 19” wheels so there’s definitely some contribution to range loss in their weight, but the tire makes a majority of the difference. I can provide you 10 different threads where people replaced their tires with different tires of the same size and saw a 15-25% reduction in range/increase in energy consumption.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

To say that weight, weight distribution, suspension tuning, road surface, and other factors don’t matter is a gross misunderstanding of the article you like to repeatedly insert. You are oversimplifying things way too much. If you were solely testing tires (not attached to a vehicle) then the tire itself would be the only factor, however on a car you have multiple factors that can change the vehicle’s acceleration and deceleration. Each factor may alter the tire’s ability to bite the road, but those factors themselves are the cause of the change, not the tire. For example... increasing/decreasing vehicle weight, changing weight distribution, modifying suspension all contribute to the vehicle’s stopping distance. Assume two vehicles have the identical set of tires, weigh the same, etc. If you have 99% of the weight on the front axle and 1% on the rear, that car will not stop in the same distance as a car that has a 50/50 weight distribution because the rear tires have no weight on them to bite into the roadway. Put PS4S tires on both and you’ll get different results... Each thing I’ve mentioned (suspension damping, suspension travel, weight, weight distribution, et al.) contribute as much to the vehicle’s stopping distance as the tires themselves.

Nobody is arguing that putting summer performance tires on a car will not increase at the limit handling and shorten stopping distances, but you cannot say that a tire is the ONLY thing that causes a car to stop in a certain distance. A LR AWD 3 and a LR RWD 3 should have slightly different stopping distances even if they’re both equipped with the same tires because they weigh different amounts and the weight distribution is different. You’ve tried to reduce every single part of a car into just “the tires and only the tires matter”. Essentially you’re saying any car that has the same set of tires should stop in the same distance because their friction coefficient is identical. Of course that’s not the case. Regardless, I have no intention to continue arguing with you about this.

I guess this test by Road and Track on an e-Golf doesn’t matter... they replaced both tires and wheels, but the impact was 20% on the e-Golf.

How Stickier Tires Impact an Electric Car's Range

 

[Knightshade]

To say that weight, weight distribution, suspension tuning, road surface, and other factors don’t matter is a gross misunderstanding of the article you like to repeatedly insert. You are oversimplifying things way too much.

I mean- the article literally says exactly what I told you (and quoted it saying)

You'd be aware of that if you actually read it. Maybe give that a try?

If you were solely testing tires (not attached to a vehicle) then the tire itself would be the only factor, however on a car you have multiple factors that can change the vehicle’s acceleration and deceleration.

Not getting the "not attached to vehicle" bit at all.

Take car X with tire Y. Test 60-0 stopping distance.

Now take car X with tire Z. Test 60-0 stopping distance.

100% of the difference will be from the tire.

Because the tire after all is what stops the car.

It's literally the only part of the car that contacts the road to do so.

Just as folks whose cars came with MXM4s and swapped to PS4s found their stopping distance dropped by dozens of feet to results similar to the cars that CAME with PS4s.

Each factor may alter the tire’s ability to bite the road, but those factors themselves are the cause of the change, not the tire. For example... increasing/decreasing vehicle weight

d = v2/2ug,
d = minimum stopping distance,
v = velocity when brakes were applied
u = coeff. of friction between wheels and road
g = gravitational constant,



Notice how it doesn't ask about the weight of the vehicle?

(or the suspension or brake parts for that matter)

So long as the brakes are sufficient to lock the tires (or engage ABS) the car will still stop in the same minimum distance from the same velocity, as governed by the coefficient of friction between wheels and road.

To my knowledge no OEM has made a car that CAN NOT engage ABS on even the stock brakes in decades. Certainly not Tesla.

. Regardless, I have no intention to continue arguing with you about this.

Almost nobody who says this ever sticks to it, no matter how often the evidence shows their facts are wrong. It's weird.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

I mean- the article literally says exactly what I told you (and quoted it saying)

You'd be aware of that if you actually read it. Maybe give that a try?






Not getting the "not attached to vehicle" bit at all.

Take car X with tire Y. Test 60-0 stopping distance.

Now take car X with tire Z. Test 60-0 stopping distance.

100% of the difference will be from the tire.

Because the tire after all is what stops the car.

It's literally the only part of the car that contacts the road to do so.

Just as folks whose cars came with MXM4s and swapped to PS4s found their stopping distance dropped by dozens of feet to results similar to the cars that CAME with PS4s.



d = v2/2ug,
d = minimum stopping distance,
v = velocity when brakes were applied
u = coeff. of friction between wheels and road
g = gravitational constant,



Notice how it doesn't ask about the weight of the vehicle?

(or the suspension or brake parts for that matter)

So long as the brakes are sufficient to lock the tires (or engage ABS) the car will still stop in the same minimum distance from the same velocity, as governed by the coefficient of friction between wheels and road.

To my knowledge no OEM has made a car that CAN NOT engage ABS on even the stock brakes in decades. Certainly not Tesla.





Almost nobody who says this ever sticks to it, no matter how often the evidence shows their facts are wrong. It's weird.

To my knowledge you have not sent a single article that does what you are proposing... test two tires on the exact Model 3. I’ve said it over and over that comparing results from different sources that used different tracks/roads, drivers, weather conditions, and even different variants of the car (SR/LR AWD/P) is flawed. The best way to test and extrapolate a usable data point is to test the same exact car with different tires...


You can’t argue that the tire matters but say road surface and temperature when tested doesn’t.
Regardless of their impact on performance/range, the thing that you can’t agree to or appreciate is that not everyone can afford/or wants to spend $330 per tire for a tire that will wear out in 10-20K miles, requires you own a second set for winter, or that causes everything on the road to stick to the tire and get shot at your car. I can send you pictures of the little sand and rock particles stuck to my car’s PS4S right now and I don’t live or drive near or on any gravel road. Just driving on any street I hear a million little things being sandblasted against the side of the car. Our other Model 3 on stock 18” wheels and tires doesn’t have the millions of stone chips and you don’t hear the constant barrage of things hitting the side of the car. My car’s hundreds of paint chips show that these tires DO cause things to stick to them easily.

Even if financial reasons play no impact in my personal decision, I think the environmental impact of replacing a set of tires annually is quite harmful. Tires are one of the greatest sources of marine pollution. There are multiple all season tires (AS3+, DWS06, Proxes Sport A/S) that offer competitive handling and braking without requiring you to own two sets of tires, and they are all rated to last 40-50K miles, and cost 30-70% less to purchase. To me there’s many more important aspects to a car than the panic stopping distance. It seems to be your only concern in a car. I keep a distance from other cars, have my cruise control set on 7 distance and have every autonomous braking function to stop EARLY so I hopefully don’t have to slam on brakes unless it’s an absolute emergency. Even so, 130 feet (claimed stopping distance for SR+ 3 on 18” wheels) is better than most vehicles on the road today and competitive with the best selling cars from Honda, Toyota, etc.

 

[dfwatt]

So please quote the sources that show the wheel itself is responsible for the majority of the difference... if that was the case people that took their aero covers off of their 18” wheels or those who had the identical style 19” wheels would experience the equal range loss that is experienced by those of us with the 20” wheels and tires.

The rolling resistance of the tire is the single greatest source of energy lost to propelling the vehicle forward other than aerodynamics. The aero covers offered on 18” wheels provides around a 2-3% increase in range vs. the open wheel. The 20” wheels weigh more than the 18” or 19” wheels so there’s definitely some contribution to range loss in their weight, but the tire makes a majority of the difference. I can provide you 10 different threads where people replaced their tires with different tires of the same size and saw a 15-25% reduction in range/increase in energy consumption.

Once again you misquote people. I didn't say that aerodynamics were the larger portion of it. I said they were a significant portion secondly. Unsprung weight in terms of rotational inertia in the wheel makes very little difference in terms of range once the mass is spun up, it makes a bigger difference in terms of acceleration but almost no difference in terms of range. Again you continue to post anti scientific nonsense. You will be confronted about that in this kind of forum because there are people who actually have a science background. You clearly do not. You can continue to post your polemical statements that seem to do something for you I'm not quite sure what but that's your right. But you will continue to be challenged and exposed for somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about.

As for the Michelin All Season Pilot Sport 3 plus, we actually agree that is probably a better choice for most people who need all season capability. It's a very fine Tire about to be replaced by the Pilot Sport All Season 4 plus which is going to be even better. I understand your reasons for wanting to avoid frequent tire replacement including both the ecological and financial issues. Everything is a trade-off. If you want the best possible street handling and a decent ride the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is still the best option. Not the best financial option perhaps certainly not any kind of option for cold weather, but for people who have their cars only in warm weather which is us, it's a great Tire. We don't care that it has a range penalty. And it's not 20%. In addition to that nonsense that you're quoting as some kind of verified fact there's also the nonsense that the tire only lasts ten thousand miles. We have 20,000 miles on one set and are just about halfway through the tread. For people who are tracking the car, the Pilot Sport 4S a lousy Tire cuz it simply doesn't last very long. Like I said everything is a trade-off. So again you post a lot of counter-factual nonsense along with some things that look like they're better grounded. If you go lighter on the polemic you'd get less pushback.

 

[Knightshade]

To my knowledge you have not sent a single article that does what you are proposing...

SHOCKER! Your claim you were done with the thread was no more factual thanyour other claims in the thread

T
test two tires on the exact Model 3

You've already been told a number of members have done exactly that- moving, for example, from OEM all seasons to PS4s tires on the otherwise exact same car- and knocking a couple dozen feet off their stopping distance.

Your unwillingness to accept facts notwithstanding.

. I’ve said it over and over that comparing results from different sources that used different tracks/roads, drivers, weather conditions, and even different variants of the car (SR/LR AWD/P) is flawed.

Especially flawed since that's not what happened.

I cited cases of the same source on the same track/road, using professionally calibrated testing equipment, finding the same dozens of feet different that all the other sources also found doing the same thing.


You simply continue to ignore and handwave away literally any amount of facts proving you wrong though.

You can’t argue that the tire matters but say road surface and temperature when tested doesn’t.

I didn't say that though.

On the contrary I pointed out some of the tests I mentioned were done on the exact same road by the exact same car magazines on the exact same test tracks so your continuing to pretend you haven't been shown comparable results continues to look ridiculous.



But if you wanna keep making up imaginary arguments nobody presented, while ignoring the real ones backed up by tons of evidence proving you wrong, strawman to your hearts content I guess.

 

[golfpilot]

You can't tell the performance of a tire from specs at all.

Well I got the All Season Plus tires and they are really good. Way better than the OEM Michelins

 

[dgaultiere]

To bring this thread back on topic, can anyone recommend a tire replacement for the stock 19" Continentals? Not looking for a high performance summer tire, just a decent all season that blends performance, range and low noise.

I'm honestly pretty happy with the stock Continentals from that standpoint. However, if there is a comparable all season that is quieter or cheaper I would be interested to know!

Cheers!

 

[dwolvin]

I have to admit I'm looking to go fairly cheap, as I'm on 19s right now but thinking about new wheels next year. So I'm looking at Dunlop Signature HP's I've never had a problem with similar tires from them...

https://www.discounttire.com/buy-tires/dunlop-signature-hp/p/88200

 

[XLR82XS]

To bring this thread back on topic, can anyone recommend a tire replacement for the stock 19" Continentals? Not looking for a high performance summer tire, just a decent all season that blends performance, range and low noise.

I'm honestly pretty happy with the stock Continentals from that standpoint. However, if there is a comparable all season that is quieter or cheaper I would be interested to know!

Cheers!

Continental PureContact LS

 

[jcjumps]

I have to admit I'm looking to go fairly cheap, as I'm on 19s right now but thinking about new wheels next year. So I'm looking at Dunlop Signature HP's I've never had a problem with similar tires from them...

Well for a few cents more you could try the General Altimax RT43.

we believe the Altimax RT43 is on par or slightly better than tires like the Dunlop Signature HP based on price point.

Source: General Altimax RT43 Review

 

[jcjumps]

It looks like the PureContact LS are going to cost a bit more, but they have some of the highest ratings overall for wet and dry traction.

 

[XLR82XS]

It looks like the PureContact LS are going to cost a bit more, but they have some of the highest ratings overall for wet and dry traction.

They are less expensive than the Bridgestone QuietTrack. That sealed the deal for me for the LS.

 

[dwahl]

Which tire did you decide to purchase? Is there a less expensive tire than the Michelin tires that would last the same or longer on the Tesla Model 3?

 

[dwahl]

TM3 Michelin Tire 25,000 Miles

 

[XLR82XS]

Which tire did you decide to purchase? Is there a less expensive tire than the Michelin tires that would last the same or longer on the Tesla Model 3?

No but you could pay a few bucks more and get the Bridgestone Quiet Track. 80K mile rating. (not that you'll get 80K out of them)