Time to replace the P85D but not excited about any of the options

[Mhoepfin]

I was under the impression (there is a video from Gruber) that the 100kw pack physically changes the safety and dynamics of the car and this is why the older cars don’t support it. But $5500 for a 90 pack upgrade doesn’t sound too bad.

 

[Dukeybootie]

I was under the impression (there is a video from Gruber) that the 100kw pack physically changes the safety and dynamics of the car and this is why the older cars don’t support it. But $5500 for a 90 pack upgrade doesn’t sound too bad.

I think the 057 website recommends a suspension upgrade for those with coils for this reason, but not sure if there would be other critical factors to consider as well?

 

[danp]

I was under the impression (there is a video from Gruber) that the 100kw pack physically changes the safety and dynamics of the car and this is why the older cars don’t support it. But $5500 for a 90 pack upgrade doesn’t sound too bad.

Yeah, it's not a bad price at all but the 90 only gives you incremental improvement in range and Supercharging speed, The 100 gives you full unnerf, but that's definitely not worth the ~22K at least for me.

 

[wk057]

I was under the impression (there is a video from Gruber) that the 100kw pack physically changes the safety and dynamics of the car and this is why the older cars don’t support it. But $5500 for a 90 pack upgrade doesn’t sound too bad.

That entire video is nonsense, as is a lot of other stuff pedaled by them. Gets clicks though!

There were no physical changes to the cars built with 100 packs vs pre-100 packs. The packs are physically the same size, same connections, same bolts, same weight distribution, etc. The 100 pack weighs about 120 lbs more than a 90 pack. Technically this requires a suspension upgrade on coil cars to keep the weight ratings, but isn't a huge deal... it's 120 lbs. On air suspension cars it's the flip of a few bits in software to bring everything to spec.

There are some software challenges to getting a 100 working in a car that has never had one (which we've overcome), but that's it. Once done, an upgraded car is indistinguishable from one shipped from the factory with a 100.

 

[danp]

That entire video is nonsense, as is a lot of other stuff pedaled by them. Gets clicks though!

There were no physical changes to the cars built with 100 packs vs pre-100 packs. The packs are physically the same size, same connections, same bolts, same weight distribution, etc. The 100 pack weighs about 120 lbs more than a 90 pack. Technically this requires a suspension upgrade on coil cars to keep the weight ratings, but isn't a huge deal... it's 120 lbs. On air suspension cars it's the flip of a few bits in software to bring everything to spec.

There are some software challenges to getting a 100 working in a car that has never had one (which we've overcome), but that's it. Once done, an upgraded car is indistinguishable from one shipped from the factory with a 100.

Super helpful. And it's really great that you guys are providing these pack upgrade options as well as the battery service plans - as you can see there are many of us with the same dilemma. Also I love companies that are super responsive and engage with their customers, unlike certain others I've been trying to communicate with this week.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Interesting, I didn't realize 057tech offered 100kwh pack upgrades. Is there a thread you could point me to with more info about that process and cost?

They do but they're expensive. If you add that price of the upgrade to what your car is worth currently, you'll get a better idea of what that upgrade versus what a newer P100D would cost.

Don't forget, those newer cars include a lot more creature comforts than you realize until you've owned one for a little while. Source: I've own just about every variant of the Tesla Model S going back to 2013 all the way up to 2017. The differences between the various versions is not insignificant as it applies to day-to-day use. It is much less significant on paper but in the real world you'll really come to appreciate those little updates and upgrades they did over the months/years.

For people saying that the market is too high on newer cars right now, keep in mind that you'll get a boatload of money for your car too. It's all relative so don't let the numbers scare you. In the end, the net isn't much different than it would have been a year ago you just would have got much less for your car. Really the only difference is that your car will likely sell much quicker and you'll have a more difficult time finding its replacement. The net cost between those two though is roughly the same as it was a year or two ago.

That said, I fully support 057's work. Somebody needs to do it and I'm glad it's being done. In time, the prices will start to come down a little bit and that's good for everyone. Don't read what I'm saying as a suggestion that you not go that route, I'm just saying make sure that you are objectively comparing all of the data before you make a decision with so many zeros on the end.

 

[wk057]

They do but they're expensive. If you add that price of the upgrade to what your car is worth currently, you'll get a better idea of what that upgrade versus what a newer P100D would cost.

Don't forget, those newer cars include a lot more creature comforts than you realize until you've owned one for a little while. Source: I've own just about every variant of the Tesla Model S going back to 2013 all the way up to 2017. The differences between the various versions is not insignificant as it applies to day-to-day use. It is much less significant on paper but in the real world you'll really come to appreciate those little updates and upgrades they did over the months/years.

For people saying that the market is too high on newer cars right now, keep in mind that you'll get a boatload of money for your car too. It's all relative so don't let the numbers scare you. In the end, the net isn't much different than it would have been a year ago you just would have got much less for your car. Really the only difference is that your car will likely sell much quicker and you'll have a more difficult time finding its replacement. The net cost between those two though is roughly the same as it was a year or two ago.

That said, I fully support 057's work. Somebody needs to do it and I'm glad it's being done. In time, the prices will start to come down a little bit and that's good for everyone. Don't read what I'm saying as a suggestion that you not go that route, I'm just saying make sure that you are objectively comparing all of the data before you make a decision with so many zeros on the end.

Don't get me wrong. I actually steer most people away from upgrades. They don't make sense for a lot of folks.

That said, I consider the Plaid S/X to be several steps backward in terms of usability/comfort/etc. I'd never sell a pre-plaid S/X towards a plaid S/X. Upgrades to pre-plaid are better in that case. (Don't even get me started on the yoke and stalk-delete craze...)

There's some improvements to the S/X over the years, but nothing so major that I'd suggest selling/rebuying to get them.

The 100 variants of the S/X are holding their values quite well overall, and a lot of the time those upgrades can make sense to bring an older car up into that market. Not always, but it can.

 

[tm1v2]

Had the P85D with the + suspension for over 7 years now. Still drives like new, and nothing beats the open pano roof on a nice summer day. And great to have free premium connectivity and unlimited Supercharging, even with the limited 85 battery pack charging speeds.

But with just over half a year left on the powertrain and battery warranty, and with the used car market what it is, it seems like a good time to sell it and upgrade to something new.

The problem is that nothing else out there actually feels like an upgrade. Mostly the opposite.

I have both the Model S LR and the MYP on order. I drove the Plaid for a day and loved the suspension/handling, acceleration (on sport mode so it was comparable to the LR) build quality, and comfort. But I would miss the pano sunroof that opens, and I really hated the awkwardness of the yoke, turn signals, horn, and the semi-automatic drive selection. Would probably get used to all that but my wife, who would only drive it occasionally, would not, and I think it would be dangerous in expected situations. Elon ruined the best car in the world, IMO.

The MYP is the best value overall, and I love the fun factor and the utility. We already have a 3, so this would be familiar, but I don't love the vegan/vinyl seats without ventilation, since they don't breathe as well as real leather. There are cheap little details like the cardboard windshield visors, lack of passenger power lumbar, and no rear climate controls. And there are just way too many 3s and Ys out there now.

I've considered non Tesla EVs, like the Polestar 2 and the Taycan CT, but even assuming I could actually find one, there is always some major downside, like crappy software, lack of local service, slower acceleration, range, etc. And lack of Supercharger access (for now) would make a big difference on road trips that we take on a regular basis, at least based on some ABRP route comparisons.

So I'm leaning towards just keeping the P85D at least until the battery/powertrain warranty expires, and maybe longer with an aftermarket battery warranty. And hopefully in the meantime some better other options emerge.

Anyone else been through this dilemma? What did you end up deciding/doing?

@danp I feel for your dilemma. The + suspension S were the best driving ones ever. The new Palladium should've would've could've been even better, if it weren't for the yoke situation. That's fixable but doing so is not for everyone. Plus my wife loves opening the roof so losing that really puts a damper on any desire for upgrading to a newer one. Not to mention the neutered instrument panel, lack of configurable steering wheel controls, and small frunk.

So as sweet as a new S is - it's still a great car and in some ways better than ever - my wife and I decided last fall we don't want another one. Part of that is also our needs changing. We do more hauling and dirt+gravel driving than ever now. The huge S hatch plus air suspension is good for that but an EV pickup might suit us even better these days...you can see where this is going...

...so our S will replacement will (hopefully) be a "max pack" Rivian R1T! Everything about it suits us better than any of the fullsize EV pickups, which are just way too long for us, only the Rivian has a chance of fitting into our city garage for off-street parking. I also love the quad motor setup and trick suspension.

We still needed a 2nd car though. So we got an M3P. Sooo much fun to drive, especially after upgrading the suspension. Great range and efficiency too especially after downsizing the wheels. The 3 could never be an S replacement for us though, it only works for us as a 2nd car.

Model Y (MYP or MYLR) looked like a good option on paper, and I liked it a lot just sitting in one, but the test drive killed it for me. Once on the move the MYLR we drove had all the refinement of a 90's econobox. I told my wife I can't do it, I'd rather drive our 2013 S than the brand new Y we were testing. It's very possible the Y we tested was an unusually bad example, or the latest ones are better than 2021's, but that particular car was just bad, with awful suspension tuning and obnoxiously loud wind noise on the highway.

Right after the M3P purchase we had our first big/expensive out-of-warranty repair on the S, cracked rear subframe replacement. It's also having other more minor issues, typical old car stuff. Still, no regret so far with keeping it, because the new car we want isn't being built yet, and pricing for newer used cars is nuts right now so we're not going that route either. We're just hoping the (refurbished) battery and (refurbished) drive unit hold out for another two years or so, when we expect/hope our R1T will be built. (Our chosen config has 3+ options that Rivian isn't building in production vehicles yet, including the max size HVB.)

 

[bareyb]

Had the P85D with the + suspension for over 7 years now. Still drives like new, and nothing beats the open pano roof on a nice summer day. And great to have free premium connectivity and unlimited Supercharging, even with the limited 85 battery pack charging speeds.

But with just over half a year left on the powertrain and battery warranty, and with the used car market what it is, it seems like a good time to sell it and upgrade to something new.

The problem is that nothing else out there actually feels like an upgrade. Mostly the opposite.

I have both the Model S LR and the MYP on order. I drove the Plaid for a day and loved the suspension/handling, acceleration (on sport mode so it was comparable to the LR) build quality, and comfort. But I would miss the pano sunroof that opens, and I really hated the awkwardness of the yoke, turn signals, horn, and the semi-automatic drive selection. Would probably get used to all that but my wife, who would only drive it occasionally, would not, and I think it would be dangerous in expected situations. Elon ruined the best car in the world, IMO.

The MYP is the best value overall, and I love the fun factor and the utility. We already have a 3, so this would be familiar, but I don't love the vegan/vinyl seats without ventilation, since they don't breathe as well as real leather. There are cheap little details like the cardboard windshield visors, lack of passenger power lumbar, and no rear climate controls. And there are just way too many 3s and Ys out there now.

I've considered non Tesla EVs, like the Polestar 2 and the Taycan CT, but even assuming I could actually find one, there is always some major downside, like crappy software, lack of local service, slower acceleration, range, etc. And lack of Supercharger access (for now) would make a big difference on road trips that we take on a regular basis, at least based on some ABRP route comparisons.

So I'm leaning towards just keeping the P85D at least until the battery/powertrain warranty expires, and maybe longer with an aftermarket battery warranty. And hopefully in the meantime some better other options emerge.

Anyone else been through this dilemma? What did you end up deciding/doing?

Yeah I have a 2013 P85 as well. I looked at the price for a new one and it's about $90k with the options that I'd want. Thing is, I still love my car. It's got fairly low mileage and works well. I also don't really drive it that many miles per day. Anyway, long story short? I had the passenger door repainted for a severe scratch when it was in the body shop for a new Bumper (some dude hit me and his insurance paid for it) and I got all four wheels de-scraped and re cleared (cost $800.00 for all four) and now it looks good as new, so I've decided to upgrade the center and driver screens to MCU2 and just keep it.

My battery is still getting a full charge and even if I have to replace the battery one day, it's only $28k compared to $90k for a new one. So I'm good with my upgrades and I plan to keep it until Tesla comes out with something that at least has a different look to it. Buying a new Model S is like buying the exact same car (on the outside) and where's the fun in that? I don't care at all about any of the self driving stuff. So that's not a factor for me.

 

[tm1v2]

@bareyb Ahh I think the Model S look is classic, beautiful, and timeless. It still looks great to me, and with the Palladium it finally has a good front bumper/nose design. So having the same look, just refined a bit, is a selling point to me!

But looks are such a personal preference thing, all good that you would rather a new design.

 

[bareyb]

@bareyb Ahh I think the Model S look is classic, beautiful, and timeless. It still looks great to me, and with the Palladium it finally has a good front bumper/nose design. So having the same look, just refined a bit, is a selling point to me!

But looks are such a personal preference thing, all good that you would rather a new design.

Well. That's the thing. It would have to be "better" looking than what I have now and that's hard to do! I still think it's one of the best looking cars ever made. I expect I'll keep my old one until something happens that forces me to sell it. Probably if it becomes unreliable and is costing too much to maintain. As it sits it's been rock solid for a long time and I'm really still in love with it. I suppose I have a bit of a sentimental attachment to it as well.

 

[danp]

Well. That's the thing. It would have to be "better" looking than what I have now and that's hard to do! I still think it's one of the best looking cars ever made. I expect I'll keep my old one until something happens that forces me to sell it. Probably if it becomes unreliable and is costing too much to maintain. As it sits it's been rock solid for a long time and I'm really still in love with it. I suppose I have a bit of a sentimental attachment to it as well.

IMO, the exterior design of the refresh MS is actually a significant improvement, especially when you see it in person. Wider rear stance, more aggressive lines, etc. But agreed that overall the MS is still one of the best looking cars out there. The main reason I'm not sold on "upgrading" is the stupid yoke / no stalks thing, and giving up the pano roof.

I hear you about the sentimental attachment - I realized today when walking up to mine in a parking lot that I would be pretty sad to see it hauled away on a Carvana flatbed. Whatever I was replacing it would have to be exciting enough to displace that sadness, and for all the reasons I outlined in the original post here, nothing else that's available today would be.

I think I'm setting into the decision to invest in the MCU2 update and just keep it for another few years. By then the SC network will be open to non Teslas, there will be interesting other options like the Polestar 3 and 5, Macan EV, Audi A6 etron, AMG EQE 43, a Taycan CT with better software and range, or hell, maybe even a Model S with a round steering wheel or improved yoke.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Anyone else been through this dilemma? What did you end up deciding/doing?

I didn't really have this dilemma as I didn't need a new vehicle, but I had reserved an R1T as I wanted to replace my Jeep Wrangler Unlimited with one.

But, then the R1T came early before they had the open-roof option.

So I had the dilemma of whether to trade in my 2018 Model 3 Performance or my 2019 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited.

I went with the trading in the Tesla because I didn't really want to give up the open top feeling with the Jeep Wrangler on the few nice days we get in the PNW. I'm not sure why all the EV makers seem to think we want enclosed vehicles with no ability to open up the roof.

I probably won't be a non-Tesla owner for long, but I'm not all that excited by the current line up. The new Model S was the closest, but it didn't mesh with what I really liked about my 2015 Model S.

 

[12Pack]

Posted earlier in a similar discussion, but while I loved the opening roof (and the freebies) I always found my older S to be a poor drive on curvy, bumpy roads in the UK. The suspension crashed over bumps, floated over crests and the I was always rolling around in the seats. Got tired of waiting for my Plaid order, and went with a Raven. The adaptive suspension is a game changer. The car feels stable but still chuckable, and though I'd prefer better bolstering, the seats are much better. And the range means less worrying about superchargers being opened up to the riff raff....

 

[Dannietjoh]

So I'm leaning towards just keeping the P85D at least until the battery/powertrain warranty expires, and maybe longer with an aftermarket battery warranty. And hopefully in the meantime some better other options emerge.

Why not get a 2018 (P)100D(L) with pano roof? that will have another 4years of warranty. If the suspension turns out to suck too much unplugged has a reasonably priced upgrade for it.

 

[danp]

Posted earlier in a similar discussion, but while I loved the opening roof (and the freebies) I always found my older S to be a poor drive on curvy, bumpy roads in the UK. The suspension crashed over bumps, floated over crests and the I was always rolling around in the seats. Got tired of waiting for my Plaid order, and went with a Raven. The adaptive suspension is a game changer. The car feels stable but still chuckable, and though I'd prefer better bolstering, the seats are much better. And the range means less worrying about superchargers being opened up to the riff raff....

The "plus" suspension that was only offered for about 5 months (on the 2014 P85+ and early 2015 P85D) is night and day better than the regular suspension, it's stiff and super planted, like driving on rails. The Raven adaptive suspension gives you most of that but it's also more comfortable.

Why not get a 2018 (P)100D(L) with pano roof? that will have another 4years of warranty. If the suspension turns out to suck too much unplugged has a reasonably priced upgrade for it.

See above. The plus suspension has upgraded dampers, bushings, and anti-roll bars - the Unplugged upgrade would help a bit wouldn't come anywhere close. One of the reasons I'm so reluctant to let go of this P85D.

 

[tm1v2]

Agreed. P100D are full on heavyweight soft boats. Smooth, quick, and comfortable but not much fun in the turns. Those UP dampers could be a big improvement but I agree that spring and bushing upgrades would likely be needed too to better match the Plus suspension...should be doable, but a bit of a rabbit hole.

I remember thinking Tesla was milking it to charge $5k (if I recall correctly) for the P85+ over the P85 without any power upgrade. Then I got one as a loaner and I understood...it really was a transformation in handling.

An early P85D felt similar, you could feel (and especially hear!) the front motor though but it was good too and of course more powerful. (Well until the rear drive unit issued a fault...but I'm sure that P85D loaner had the absolute snot driven out of it for its ~ 26k miles. Plus it was pretty cool that it could still drive after a motor failure!)

 

[dbldwn02]

Yeah, I'm actually pretty impressed with Hyundai's EV game so early on for them. The Ioniq 5, EV6 GT, and even the GV60 all look interesting, and might be contenders for me once Tesla's plans for opening the SC network to non-Teslas in the US materialize.

How do you like the driving experience of the Ioniq 5, in particular handling? The reviews I've watched all complained about fairly meh handling on all 3 variants).

Sorry, I'm a terrible person to ask about handling. I'm not driving this like a sports car, so I can't really tell. I also don't know the difference between a domestic and micro brewed beer.

Other than wheel sizes, there's not handling difference between the trim levels.

 

[mscott]

I think a large majority of owners get used to and actually prefer the yoke quickly, outside of the horn.

I'm only a sample size of one, but now that I've driven about 5K miles on my refresh MSLR, I can safely say "ditto" to this. When I get in my old 2015 85D or my wife's MY, I actually find the wheel a bit cumbersome. I've read all the comments from fellow "nose cone" owners and I agree with the sentiment of not being able to get rid of such a great car. The 85D was our road trip car and we had many great trips in it, but with the improvements in battery (the refresh S will charge *at least* twice as fast over the 5-80% range) and interior, it was time to consider something more current. I was adamant about not getting a refreshed S until Tesla offered a proper steering wheel, but after reading others' experiences and seeing aftermarket wheel options become available, I decided to pull the trigger. (If I hated it, I could go aftermarket.)

I have no regrets so far, having taking a 3,200 mile road trip in it already. I miss a few things from the 85D (like a lack of phantom braking!!! and a couple inches of height in the trunk), but the refresh S is so much more comfortable, quieter, and nicer on the inside that I am really glad I decided to "try" it. The 85D will become (as another poster put it) a "generational car," as well as the one we'll use to haul things I'm not yet ready to put into the new cars.

 

[smilepak]

It’s hard to find a replacement for what you have. I have the same. If you go MY or M3, it’s a downgrade in quality. Suspension not too great. No free SC. Smaller in size.

BMW i4, great interior. Good suspension. But rear seat room is poor.

Hyundai I5, but lack the umph. The style is ok. No EV routing.

Ford, battery issue. Being recall at the moment

Polestar, bad

Volvo, bad

ID5, bad

Lol