Tires and wear... a little frustrated about it

[artsci]

@artsci

I've done 2 alignments in 4 months, since I was in an accident and then at Tesla for Service, where I specifically asked for alignment as I didn't trust the body shop with their work. if I can't trust Tesla SC to do the alignment according to specs or make the correct adjustments on the the suspension, how does that makes it my fault? I can't go every week to check my alignment and make sure it has the correct settings.

I'll review the other topics on the subject, speak and drop the wheels at Tesla and see what happens from there.

@bluetinc

I don't have the numbers on the alignment, doesn't show it on my sheet when I got the car from Tesla. Thanks for your input!

I didn't mean to suggest it was your fault. Just wanted to emphasis, which you clearly understand, that alignment is critical.

My issue with Tesla service and the reason I use a local shop for alignment is that now that I've installed adjustable rear camber links Tesla service refuses to align my car. Given that the adjustable links make the rear camber setting much easier to refine this seems strange but nonetheless I'm forced to live with it. But I should note that since I installed the links and had my local shop do the alignment, tire wear is far less, so much so that it no longer concerns me. I have the alignment checked each time I change the wheels, once in the winter and once in the spring.

Another matter that's often not discussed is the height the car is set to for driving. The low setting increases tire wear. So if a car is set to automatically lower at speed it will have greater tire wear. As I've lowered my car, I never have it in the low setting at speed.

 

[bwa]

Responding to OP original post: Edited:

This is typical for this type and range of car, but others have indicated it also is exacerbated by an incorrect/suboptimal vehicle wheel angle setting, which I didn't know, but definitely sounds like it makes sense.

 

[zwede]

After looking at OP's pictures, there are two things going on:

1) A gradual increase in wear going towards the inside. This is expected and caused by the extreme negative camber Tesla uses in the rear. As it is non-adjustable it is not easy to fix. You either need custom upper links or (if you have air suspension) the travel sensor can be tweaked to raise the rear a little which decreases camber.

2) The extreme wear right on the inner shoulder of the tire. This is caused by toe-out and is NOT normal. rear toe is adjustable and when set correctly the shoulder wear will not happen. I don't know what's going on at the service centers, but my car was aligned there and came out with tons of toe-out even though their printout said it had toe-in (which is what it should have). Maybe the techs are not fully trained on the alignment machines or the machines are setup wrong. No idea. But since then I've done my own alignments and I do not have the shoulder wear (mine is a P85+ w/ staggered wheels).

 

[artsci]

After looking at OP's pictures, there are two things going on:

1) A gradual increase in wear going towards the inside. This is expected and caused by the extreme negative camber Tesla uses in the rear. As it is non-adjustable it is not easy to fix. You either need custom upper links or (if you have air suspension) the travel sensor can be tweaked to raise the rear a little which decreases camber.

2) The extreme wear right on the inner shoulder of the tire. This is caused by toe-out and is NOT normal. rear toe is adjustable and when set correctly the shoulder wear will not happen. I don't know what's going on at the service centers, but my car was aligned there and came out with tons of toe-out even though their printout said it had toe-in (which is what it should have). Maybe the techs are not fully trained on the alignment machines or the machines are setup wrong. No idea. But since then I've done my own alignments and I do not have the shoulder wear (mine is a P85+ w/ staggered wheels).

Yes, rear alignment with this car is tough. The closer one moves the rear camber to -1.00, which IMHO is the ideal setting, the more difficult it is getting the toe right (.18). So it's kind of a cat and mouse game. Without the adjustable camber links it's pretty impossible.

Tesla sets extreme rear camber as a safety precaution for drivers who are poor at handling a car in more extreme conditions. So it's kind of a lowest common denominator solution with tire wear as the cost. So when I changed my rear amber setting to -1.00 I expected to experience a notable difference in handling, particularly in throttle control in high speed turns. But I've not had any issues whatsoever with changes in the handling of the car.

 

[Terra117]

As others have indicated this is not a flaw in the car but the result of incorrect alignment.

Specifically, a problem with camber, but caster looks to be at least as big an issue based on the photo.

As some have mentioned, this isn't uncommon in high performance cars. Unfortunately, the Model S doesn't seem to have enough adjustability to fully correct the issue in all cases.

Things that aggravate/accentuate the condition are wider tires, lower profile tires, high tire pressures, and wheel spacers.

 

[Owner]

okay folks... this is not NORMAL.... For a lot of technical detail on the problem and my saga:

Tire Wear | TESLA OWNER

I have several other related posts about my non-normal tire wear.

Within a week I'm going to post an interesting update.

 

[ERP]

lol at the "extreme negative camber" comments. I've run -3 degrees on the rear of my Elise for years and never had tire wear like the OP. A few degrees of negative camber will increase inner wear slightly over outer wear, but it wont destroy the inside and leave thousands of miles of outside tread. As others have stated, toe is the likely culprit.

But it could also be a tire defect. I've experienced it once and it looked similar to the OP's tires. It was on my AWD Saab Turbo X and had the tires had ~5k miles on them. One day the car started pulling to the right. It was severe enough that I pulled over and coasted to a stop because I though one of my brake calipers was stuck. I tested all four rotors and they were cool. When I got home I pulled the wheel off and discover massive inner wear, it was so bad that large sections of the exposed wire mesh was split and broken. The thread was beginning to separate from the sidewall. I replaced the tire and checked the alignment, but the numbers were all in spec. The three original tires never had an issue and the new one never showed increased wear. The tire was simply defective.

 

[AB4EJ]

I had wear just like shown in the OP (first post) on Mercedes SLK. Had alignment done at dealer (they pre-load the suspension, typical tire shop will not); this cured it. They said rear camber was wrong from the factory. Mercedes factory people I know say this is impossible, the factory alignment equipment is topnotch. Who knows? Anyway, from the sounds of the posts, it could be due both to design (for handling) as well as alignment being off.

 

[MrJones390]

What the response is describing is a wear pattern that looks like (inner) 2 -----3------4 (outer). That could be considered normal. You described (inner) 0 ----- 6------6 (outer). What you describe is not normal.

Here is a snapshot of the inspection:

 

[skboston]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I went back and looked at my report when I had my car for service back in September and here are the tire details:

Here is what they also wrote in the notes that I haven't noticed when I read it first: The Rear tires are slightly worn on inner edge of both rear tires. Customer declined replacements.

What bugs me is that after alignment and ~3000 miles later, I'm seeing such huge wear on the inner side from 7/32 down to mesh.

I haven't yet spoken to Tesla, as I'll be in the area tomorrow and will bring both wheels and talk to them.

 

[Raven]

I presume most of you have air suspension ....

Since I have setting to "never lower" my uneven wear is all but gone.

IMHO this is the cause for accelerated wear (along with a Tesla tech that does the initial alignment).

Couldnt agree more. I did the same thing(after using up rear tires in 4,000 miles). My guess was that when the car lowers all the way down, the camber on the tire increases, therefore increasing wear on the very inner part of the rear tires. Right or wrong, my tires(the same make and model since the fronts went to the rear) have lasted much longer.

 

[CHG-ON]

Hope this is helpful:

I went through my factory Michi's in only 9K mi. Annoying, to say the least at 500+ bucks a tire installed. I then switched to Hankooks and asked that the SC set my camber and toe to the lowest offset tolerances that Tesla specified. They did a great job at honoring that. Since then, my wear is completely even. I am pleasantly surprised. My Michi's looked like they were duck toed: strands on the inside edge and lots of tread on the outside. Hankooks after realignment, not at all. I have only had the Hankooks for 6K mi. But they are wearing perfectly evenly when measured...time will tell.

I think Tesla was too aggressive at their factory spec for camber and toe, causing unnecessary wear for a heavy sedan. I notice no difference in handling. But I am not a racer. Their standard specs make more sense for a lighter track car or a driver who is really killing the corners. This car is really not built for that, due to it's weight.

 

[FlasherZ]

There are many threads here that discuss it. In my case, their alignment machines were programmed with the wrong specs. When it showed all green, my MS was set up with crazy toe-out and the negative camber only magnified it. The car chewed through a set of 21" tires in 3,000 miles. It wasn't figured out until I paid a local shop to measure the alignment as done by Tesla and compared it against the specs, and they were WOEFULLY off. As it turns out, the tech was manipulating the suspension to get all the boxes to turn green - or as close to green as possible - rather than looking at the numbers. The service center had to contact their machine manufacturer, who admitted the wrong specs were loaded - and they flew out to fix the machine (Hunter was the manufacturer). With that said, I would have expected Tesla to fix any of these left by now, but it's just an example of things that can go wrong.

10,000 miles is pretty common for a combination of heavy, high performance car and soft, sticky tire, so if you managed to get 10k I'd say celebrate (although that inside shoulder wear suggests it could probably go more).

Whenever Tesla has needed to do an alignment, they're bound to follow their specs but I always request that they err toward the least amount of negative camber in the rear allowed by using zero toe in the rear.

 

[Shaggy]

I want to understand is this only on P's or 21"? Is a good solution the 19" wheels?

Also, it is confirmed you no loner get alignment in either extended or pre-paid service?

 

[FlasherZ]

I want to understand is this only on P's or 21"? Is a good solution the 19" wheels?

The 19" wheels will reduce the effects, especially if you're looking at the all-seasons vs. the "sticky" summer tires that come on the 21". More sidewall + harder tire compound = better wear patterns. I've already gotten about 20,000 miles out of my Michelins and they're still at 6/32 or so all around, no uneven inner shoulder wear.

 

[skboston]

Tesla is set to do an alignment on my car in about 10 days or so, I don't have much of a driving to do and have put my winter wheels, I'll ask them for the numbers when they finish the job. They also asked me to put the 2 rear wheels in the car, I'll update the post when it's done.

I'm happy I got out 10k out of them, but it shouldn't have been the way to see the tires go, I could have used them for a few thousand more miles.

 

[Khatsalano]

I wonder if you had your VIN number in your signature whether you'd be contacted by Tesla?

Yes. They've done that to me before. That's why I no longer include my VIN number in my signature.

Separately, on the newer Teslas, this problem has been solved. On my 85D, I have 22,000 miles and all four Contisilent 21" tires are at about 6/32 L/C/R, fronts and rears. It's amazing how evenly it's worn. I'm currently on track to get 30,000 miles out of these OEM tires, and maybe more.

- K

 

[Raven]

Separately, on the newer Teslas, this problem has been solved. On my 85D....

I think this has more to do with the fact you have a D with all wheel drive than it does with being a newer Model S.

 

[Khatsalano]

I think this has more to do with the fact you have a D with all wheel drive than it does with being a newer Model S.

I think you're right as far as the even wear between tires. But I also have even wear across L/C/R on each tire. I've been measuring with a manual gauge every 2k. Perhaps the OEM camber out of the factory was adjusted on later models.

 

[aus]

So it sounds like the cars are still coming from the factory with crappy alignment. It sucks you have to pay another $100 to get an alignment after picking up the car.

As a side note, I try to keep track of inner wear due to camber on my cars, and then flip the tires around on the wheel to almost double the lift of the tire.
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