TM3 Ludicrous != 2.8 sec?

[zer0cool]

I've been seeing banner ads on this site for the "new" Porsche Panamera and 911. Both of these have power and performance numbers that are not as good as baseline Model S. (0-60 in 4.4 vs Tesla 4.2). Prices are comparable to Teslas.
It will be hard for them to sell their premium performance sports cars against offerings from Tesla.

Alright, I am a big Tesla and Elon fan, own an S and will definitely buy a 3, but your statement is pretty mistaken... First of all, the new 4S is tested to be below 4 secs 0-60 (Porsche is very conservative on their claims). Moreover, a Porsche is so much more than just straight-line acceleration. Have you sat in or driven a Porsche Panamera? Porsches are about their driving experience; and of course the Pan has superior fit and finish compared to the S. The new Panamera is even superior to the previous one. I have not driven the new one but I am pretty sure it is even more impressive.

Tesla is more about a different, electric experience, and better tech, for now. Panamera is a superior luxury and performance machine.

 

[Zaphod]

I want my performance ludicrous Model 3 to do 0-60 in 3.14s. I could see Elon being that nerdy.

 

[googlepeakoil]

It will never be 2s, very unlikely 3s - for the simple fact that Elon wants you to buy an S / X. The price of the 3 starts at $35k.
It won't even have 4wd for 6-9 months (that's 12 in Elon speak) - and you need that for <4s in a model 3.
The 3 is their budget car - no super powerful versions. Elon has been completely down-playing the speed and tech of the 3 on twitter this last week.
I believe:
Standard car will do 6-7s. The next 5.5s. P model will do about 4.5s.
Standard battery - about 55KWh, mid 65KWH, max 75KWH

When they get desperate for sales in 2 years we might see a Ludicrous 4wd. But recall the early versions of the S were called "P" and we thought that was the best. The P is the 2wd top-of-the-line for now

 

[Jayc]

Moreover, a Porsche is so much more than just straight-line acceleration.

As EM says himself, have you tried steam locomotives?

The ICE supercar has gone way past its best-by date and it has come to the point one has to explain WHY it is a different experience to the rest, even if most people won't bother any further. Doesn't this remind you of the golden age of the steam engine.

 

[Yggdrasill]

It will never be 2s, very unlikely 3s - for the simple fact that Elon wants you to buy an S / X. The price of the S starts at $35k.
It won't even have 4wd for 6-9 months (that's 12 in Elon speak) - and you need that for <4s in a model 3.
The 3 is their budget car - no super powerful versions.
Standard car will do 6-7s. The next 5.5s. P model will do about 4.5s.
Standard battery - about 55KWh, mid 65KWH, max 75KWH

The base car will do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. It's one of the seven pieces of information about the Model 3 that is actually on the website.

 

[zer0cool]

Humm, don't think it ll be that fast. Maybe in the upper 3's to compete with the like of M3, C63, etc. Loaded out price probably to match those cars as well, in the 80's.

 

[strider]

Model 3 P75DL
2.8s 0-60mph
$60K fully loaded before taxcredits.

then I am sold, I really do wish it turns out that way.

Just like others Model 3 Ludicrous has got to be sub 3.0s car at launch without easter egg. It just has to.

I'm hoping for that kind of performance as well but there's no way it will only cost $60k. With those specs it will demolish $500,000 super cars. Tesla gets $150,000 for a P100DL and it's a bargain at that price. I would expect a 2.8sec 3P75DL to be at least $90k.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I could well be. But...

I thought I wanted Ludicrous when I imagined it was just a name for a faster trim line. But I think I read (with regard to the Model S) that Ludicrous is actually a special mode that requires the car to do special preparation, and cannot be repeated sooner than 10 minutes between runs.

This is of no interest to me because I'm not going to take my car to the drag strip. What I love about my Roadster is that when I floor it from a stop it throws my head back and leaves all other cars way behind. Once there was a hot-rod Ford next to me, with open wheels and no top and no muffler, and I smoked him. My Roadster is a non-Sport and was in Standard mode. I test-drove a P85D Model S (no Ludicrous), and it was even quicker. It didn't just throw my head back; it pushed my entire body back into the seat. But the Model S is way too big a car for me.

Ludicrous is kind of like the Roadster's Performance mode. It allows max energy flow from the battery and quickens the throttle response. you can absolutely drive around with it on all the time. Unlike the Roadster the Model S remembers it's in Ludicrous so you don't have to select it every time you drive.

If you do go to a dragstrip or whatever you can enable the battery pre-heat option which, as the name implies, heats the battery. Internal resistance drops as temps rise so more power can flow. Although heat is bad for Li-Ion batteries so you shouldn't do it all the time. This is the special preparation you read about if you want to squeeze every last electron out.

Bottom line, what you imagined for Ludicrous is true. It's the top of the line and you can just leave it in Ludicrous mode all the time and enjoy. No special preparation required. Now we just wait....

 

[sorka]

The base car will do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. It's one of the seven pieces of information about the Model 3 that is actually on the website.

The P85D was advertised at 691 hp but was later retracted and advertised at it's actual 463 hp...a 228 hp difference. Just because it's on the website doesn't mean a thing.

 

[Yggdrasill]

The P85D was advertised at 691 hp but was later retracted and advertised at it's actual 463 hp...a 228 hp difference. Just because it's on the website doesn't mean a thing.

It was advertized at 691 motor hp, and it has motors equaling 691 hp.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I'm hoping for that kind of performance as well but there's no way it will only cost $60k. With those specs it will demolish $500,000 super cars. Tesla gets $150,000 for a P100DL and it's a bargain at that price. I would expect a 2.8sec 3P75DL to be at least $90k.

That's the beauty of electric drive, it doesn't take a fortune to obliterate supercars.

Tesla exists to promote electric cars, so why would they hold back on the Model 3? I don't see any reason why they wouldn't offer a Model 3 with 2.8 second 0-60 mph for something like 60k USD.

 

[DaDr00]

I'm hoping for that kind of performance as well but there's no way it will only cost $60k. With those specs it will demolish $500,000 super cars. Tesla gets $150,000 for a P100DL and it's a bargain at that price. I would expect a 2.8sec 3P75DL to be at least $90k.

The comparison for 0-60 time to price is inaccurate. If this were true; the BMW M2 with a 0-60 of 4.2s and base price of $52k should NOT beat the higher priced 7-series starting at $81.5k at only 5.4s 0-60. There are many other features to take into consideration that affect the price of the Model S - passenger space, technology, options, fancy bits ... etc.

It is hard, for me, to see Tesla as an automobile company limit their products on behalf of marketing. Case and point - Ludicrous+. They could have raked in much more money if they wrapped that up in a different model (P105DL) and charged another $30k.

 

[sorka]

It was advertized at 691 motor hp, and it has motors equaling 691 hp.

Actually, the motor rating was increased to 763 hp even on the upgraded P85DLs. That's what the motors could handle if they were given the power but the supplied battery could only provide 463 hp at the motor shafts.

Manufacturers ship identical motors in different cars producing a different levels of horsepower depending on fuel pressure, injectors, software, and the amount of boost run(for turbo applications), and electronically controlled valve timing. Many of these produce different amounts of power simply by changing the amount of boost or valve timing via software. The cars that run those same motors with software limiting their maximum output are not advertised at the maximum power those motors could produce if their their software was changed.

They advertised "691 hp motor power", even "691 hp capable" would have been misleading. "691 hp rated" would have been less misleading but many would have still read that as a car that makes 691 hp somehow under some possible conditions as purchased. Nowhere did they ever say that didn't mean the shipping vehicle didn't actually come close to making that power.

Let's not forget that the P90DL V1's best ever tested time compiling nearly 100 timeslips from around the country is just shy of 11.2 yet Tesla advertised them at 10.9 seconds. Even the V2 with 55 more hp never quite made it out of the 11s.

 

[samsonm3]

I'm hoping for that kind of performance as well but there's no way it will only cost $60k. With those specs it will demolish $500,000 super cars. Tesla gets $150,000 for a P100DL and it's a bargain at that price. I would expect a 2.8sec 3P75DL to be at least $90k.

I disagree. 90K its too high, because you can get a used Model S that does the same 0-60 with supercharging free and cost around $60K. if that was the case I would gladly wait a couple more years and get todays Model S P100D that does it in 2.5sec and no one is stupid enough to buy a Performance car that actually doesnt perform. As you said if we put eveything in Elons time, all Tesla owners wannabe would be immune to waiting, I hope I have argued my point across well.

 

[sorka]

I disagree. 90K its too high, because you can get a used Model S that does the same 0-60 with supercharging free and cost around $60K. if that was the case I would gladly wait a couple more years and get todays Model S P100D that does it in 2.5sec and no one is stupid enough to buy a Performance car that actually doesnt perform. As you said if we put eveything in Elons time, all Tesla owners wannabe would be immune to waiting, I hope I have argued my point across well.

You can never compare brand new to used. That's not apples to apples. I can buy a dozen different 500+ hp cars used for less than hundreds of 300 hp cars that are new.

 

[strider]

That's the beauty of electric drive, it doesn't take a fortune to obliterate supercars.

Tesla exists to promote electric cars, so why would they hold back on the Model 3? I don't see any reason why they wouldn't offer a Model 3 with 2.8 second 0-60 mph for something like 60k USD.

Elon may exist to promote electric cars but Tesla as a public corp exists to make money. Period. Full stop. So they can and should price the car as high as the market will bear. They are selling SP100DLs for $150k. They should have no problem selling 2.8sec 3P75DLs at $100k (I will buy one) and so that's what they should do. They can then use that extra profit to sell more $35k models and maintain their overall profit margins.

The comparison for 0-60 time to price is inaccurate. If this were true; the BMW M2 with a 0-60 of 4.2s and base price of $52k should NOT beat the higher priced 7-series starting at $81.5k at only 5.4s 0-60. There are many other features to take into consideration that affect the price of the Model S - passenger space, technology, options, fancy bits ... etc.

It is hard, for me, to see Tesla as an automobile company limit their products on behalf of marketing. Case and point - Ludicrous+. They could have raked in much more money if they wrapped that up in a different model (P105DL) and charged another $30k.

I agree with your first paragraph and this has been my argument for the 3P75DL being as fast as possible all along.

However, others have done the math and the thinking is that if the largest battery is 75kWh then the 3P75DL will not be as quick as the SP100DL but could be close. I don't think they will hold back the performance of the 3P75DL for the sake of the SP100DL. Now they may very well talk down the 3P75DL to sustain SP100DL sales until the 3P75DL is shipping. My fingers are crossed that this is what they're doing...

 

[strider]

@samsonm3 I don't think so. A quick check of Tesla's CPO site shows SP85D's are $90k.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Elon may exist to promote electric cars but Tesla as a public corp exists to make money. Period. Full stop. So they can and should price the car as high as the market will bear. They are selling SP100DLs for $150k. They should have no problem selling 2.8sec 3P75DLs at $100k (I will buy one) and so that's what they should do. They can then use that extra profit to sell more $35k models and maintain their overall profit margins.

I'm fairly sure Tesla would rather sell 100k Model 3 P75D at 60k USD and a 20k USD profit margin than sell 20k at 100k USD and a 60k USD profit margin. They would make 1.2 billion on the latter, but 2 billion on the former.

 

[samsonm3]

You can never compare brand new to used. That's not apples to apples. I can buy a dozen different 500+ hp cars used for less than hundreds of 300 hp cars that are new.

Same argument. How is it acceptable to compare a $35000 car to a $500,000 in the same segment with 2.8sec time but not ok to look at segment with under $90K price.

 

[Mr X]

6 seconds and lower is plenty quick. And even at 0-60 6 seconds accelerating at any speed will be quicker than most cars and low end power will be superior to pretty much every car.

Speed limits are around 50 MPH and lower in the city so to 60 is not necessary. 0 to the speed limit is legal real world everyday fun and every Tesla is super quick at doing just that so it does not matter how the 3 will be.

 

[samsonm3]

@samsonm3 I don't think so. A quick check of Tesla's CPO site shows SP85D's are $90k.

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