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To Buy & Sell, To Cancel or To Hope and Pray for the Best

Discussion in 'Model X' started by ABCCBA, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. ABCCBA

    ABCCBA Member

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    Have you ever gotten a sore that you just keep rubbing raw? Well, that is how I am feeling about placing my order for our Model X.

    I never really followed the Tesla Motors history, but I did like the idea of the long-range EV XUV and in 2013 we placed our deposit for a Model X. In December 2015, we were invited to design the Model X, and we selected the P90D for no other reason than we could. Then I joined the TMC forums, and started learning about what we just bought into. And, because of the openness of the members of the forum who all share their thoughts, opinions and experiences, I have come to question having placed and confirmed our MX order. Over the past two months, I have read a large number of posts throughout the Tesla, Model X and Model S forums. And, the more I read, the more I question my decision.

    I am not a car manufacturer guy. Meaning, I don't have any feelings towards owning or driving one brand or model over another. I simply have developed likes and don't likes from my 35 years of automobile ownership, and have certain expectations for a vehicle I own - Safety, Reliability, Comfort and Power.

    Safety, Comfort and Power expectations are all met with the Model S and hopefully carry over to the Model X.

    Reliability - Here is my issue(s). There is nothing more frustrating to me than to buy a vehicle and have it develop 'issues'. I fully understand that 'things' happen occasionally and that is why manufacturers warrant their products. What is troubling about the Tesla Motors products, is that they seem to be plagued with knit-picky and recurring issues: From these forums, I have read the Model S has/had tire wears issues, drive unit issues, and had an endless amount of production issues coming right off the production line. The Model X appears to have been rushed out the door of the factory and the first couple hundred vehicles have been the same if not worse than the Model S coming off the line. So much so, that it appears that there has been either a complete shutdown of Model X production, or a miniscule trickle. But, based on the latest post about a recent tour of the factory and that there were no Model X on the production line, it would appear things have halted. Then there are the issues of wear and tear. Already, we have heard issues of faulty seat coverings, rattles, thumps, inoperable electronics, etc. I don't want a lemon. I have never had a lemon, so I don't want to make a conscious decision to overlook all the evidence from recent buyers, and end up making untolled weekly 2 hour trips to the closest SC to get 'issues' resolved.

    So, now I am doubting myself for committing to the Model X. Will it be plagued with on going ownership issues, regardless of them being covered under warranty and how well they may be addressed by SC personnel? Should I cancel my order and lose the deposit? Should I buy the car and immediately put it up for sale at my cost, to try to recoup my fully costs? Or, should I buy the car, and simply have a blind eye towards the 'issues' and like the car for what it has to offer, versus any inconveniences.

    In any case, I have learned yet another one of life's lessons, and will never buy a car on speculation again. (Yes, that means no Model 3 reservations for me)

    And so I ponder: To Buy & Sell, To Cancel or To Hope and Pray for the Best
     
  2. aznt1217

    aznt1217 Active Member

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    In your particular situation, I would buy the car and see what happens. Only because you are in the unique position of getting a Model X when liquidity for the vehicle is incredibly high.

    What I'll say is this, I've seen multiple examples of Model X and the quality is very high. In addition, owning a Model S (2014) and seeing the newer ones things have improved significantly (even though I thought the 14 S was fine-- they made it better). I wouldn't go too crazy with the forums because issues are going to be magnified since the vast majority of owners are not on the forums (we generally have the fanatics and the nitpickers that make things sound like the end of the world) and happily driving their car instead of surfing TMC.
     
  3. calisnow

    calisnow Active Member

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    Mike - serious, non-snarky reply to you:

    1 - The Tesla forums, like any forums, are full of a sub-set of owners who are very vocal and very whiny. You are not hearing from the "silent majority" who go about their business with reliable cars.

    2 - Have you owned a lot of high dollar, high tech, high performance vehicles before? Or are you coming to Tesla from "pedestrian" cars like a Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, etc? This isn't a snobby reply to you - I'm just wondering what your prior experiences with cars are.

    I personally love cars, and so I've owned quite a few high performance vehicles - but with that territory comes (in my experience) a certain number of "issues." From my three BMW's, one Mercedes AMG sedan, to highly tuned Japanese turbo sports cars and finally to the Italian makers of sports cars - all these cars have come with "issues." I tolerate them because the driving experience is so magical with cars like these. It's a conscious trade-off I make willingly- I know that if I were to drive a boring Lexus/Accord/Camry I could have trouble free motoring but that with the type of cars I choose to drive I will be spending more time than normal at service centers.

    You are buying a car on the very bleeding edge of technology - I would not, if I were you, expect it to be as trouble free at first as a Camry. If you go in with that expectation you are asking for disappointment. On the other hand it has no transmission and no internal combustion engine - it should have a very, very, very long service life for you. Half a million miles? A million? Who knows - it should last a very long time.

    3 - Do you plan to keep the Tesla for a long time? I ask that because often a new car in its first year or two of production will have issues early on that get ironed out over a few trips to the dealer and then it becomes trouble free for a number of years after that. This has been the case with my Infiniti QX56 I've owned now for 12 years since it was new - purchased in the first year of production when it was made in a new factory in the U.S. The first year there were multiple trips to the dealer for new brakes and getting other problems ironed out - after that it has been trouble free for 200K+ miles - and it's still going strong.
     
  4. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

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    I agree with aznt1217, what you read on this forum is the good, bad and the ugly. You should not judge the vehicle based on reading this forum, and whatever problems you may have Tesla will take care of them. I have a 2013 Model S and have had very few problems. Just get some perspective on what Tesla as a company is trying to do and you will then understand how difficult this process is. Buy the X and live with it, if there are so many problems and Tesla is unable to fix them to your satisfaction you can trade it in or sell it.
     
  5. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Member

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    Keep in mind that trying to determine vehicle reliability based on forum postings is nearly impossible. Folks mostly only go to a forum when they have something to complain about. So you're only seeing the cars that have issues.

    I'd say it depends on just how little tolerance you have for issues, If you're intolerant of even the smallest issue, than yes I'd cancel it.

    By the time you get your X they;'ll have been making Xs for a few months, and the majority of the drive train and electronics for almost 4 years. I think the reliability has improved significantly over that time. The only real way to judge reliability is based on actual data, and the only place that I've seen that tries to get an unbiased sample is Consumer Reports. They're methodology is far from perfect, but they give it a "worse than average"
     
  6. SabrToothSqrl

    SabrToothSqrl Active Member

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    My sunroof on my 2013 S just started leaking today... or maybe it's because my new job isn't in the city and it's not in a parking garage...

    in any case, between the 'large' butt of the X (c'mon, the evoque looks sick, even the explorer, and Tahoe), no excuse for the disapointing look of the X, after the ever-so-sexy S...

    and the no less than DOZEN time's I've been at a SC. I simply can't afford the risk of a 'new' car... I want another S, but it's going to be faster and a 2016+... with 4 years of production these issues should be closer to resolved. The X just starts the clock all over. warranty is great, but I lose 6 hours EVERY TIME I go in... and I just can't do that any more.
     
  7. ABCCBA

    ABCCBA Member

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    calisnow, thanks for the response.

    My wife and I have owned quite a few vehicles over the years. Lexus LS460, Lexus GS400, BMW 650Ci, MB AMG S63, three consecutive Infiniti FXs and three Jeep Grand Cherokees. Then, there are probably another dozen or so before those including Mazda Miatas, #255 Pontiac Solstice, etc.

    We generally keep the vehicles until we reach 45,000 to 60,000 miles.

    Yes, my expectations are high for vehicles.

    Mike

     
  8. rgensler

    rgensler Member

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    We own a 2013 85S and just recently bought a 70D. In the 30 months between the two Tesla has improved the fit and finish quite a bit. The new car feels more solid and has less rattles and squeaks. We were perfectly happy with the old car but now with perspective, it seems out of date. This is great news for new buyers as they are getting a better car for mostly the same price. Keep in mind that Tesla sources parts from manufacturers that provide for other car manufacturers. You could have the problem in your Tesla or the same problem in your Mercedes. In our 2013 they proactively replaced the 12v battery at our house (zero inconvenience). They've also replaced our drive unit and axles to remedy a clicking sound. This was done in 1/2 day. From all indications they've solved these issues in the most recent builds.
     
  9. TSLAX

    TSLAX Member

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    Hi Mike, I hope you take delivery on your Model X. Between my brother and myself, our two families will have four Tesla vechicles. My husband has been a past owner of a BMW M3, Corvette, an English sports car called a Noble, etc. He was ready for a sedan and although the Noble is incredibly fast and handles like no other vechicle he has driven he LOVES his model S. He has said his Tesla 90D is OVERALL the best car he has ever owned. He is a picky guy and would have designed in a couple of things they missed. I guarantee the Model X will be an improvement in all of these small areas.

    My my brother and sister in law test drove the X in Ca. last Monday. My brother said it is the best car he has ever been in. He said the interior is better than the exterior if possible. My sister in law confirmed her order that day.

    My my brother has an early 2012 Model S. He had a couple of small issues. He has maintained that Tesla service has treated him really well and fixed anything he thought had was a problematic. He is absolutely thrilled with his car.

    I took a leap of faith on Dec. 1 when I confirmed. But I am confident I will be happy with my X and it will be the best car I have ever owned. I can't wait to get it.
     
  10. ankitmishra

    ankitmishra Member

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    @Mike
    Have you visited the Model S section of the official Tesla forums? I find TMC to be skewed towards criticising Tesla. Though some people would say that people here are realistic. Please visit official S forums and then make a decision.
     
  11. Mark Z

    Mark Z Active Member

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    My Model S has been parked (and daily charged) for over a week. Model X is being driven and enjoyed.

    My posts of X issues are to help other X owners know they aren't alone. Those issues have been and are getting fixed.

    The Model X is a dream to drive with the higher profile, cushy seats and IMAX format windshield. It is like a theme park ride vehicle unlike anything else on the market. Order, buy and enjoy. Theme parks have wait times for attraction design, construction, testing and when you visit. Model X is worth the wait when service is needed. Consider the entire process an adventure and enjoy the ride.
     
  12. ABCCBA

    ABCCBA Member

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    Mark Z - Great analogy. I love roller coasters - the taller and faster, the better. I think I would be concerned about riding one where the 'park owners' spoke about the ongoing issues that they were experiencing with the coasters. I don't know if it would be any more comforting if they told me to overlook the popping and grinding noises and consider the overall experience.

    On second thought, maybe I should treat the Model X like a roller coaster ride by throwing my hands up in the air and screaming at the top of my voice? lol

     
  13. hollyatl

    hollyatl Member

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    I am with you, Mike, but I am going to order and just hope for the best. I am really hoping not to have a repeat of the experience my husband and I have had with recent cars. My husband drove an Acura sedan for years and had zero problems mechanically or otherwise, so I bought an Acura MDX (SUV), and it has been such a lemon. Not so much mechanically (although a few of those issues have cropped up) but continually leaking sunroof, leather that doesn't hold up over time, various and sundry broken things inside, etc. My husband bought a S two years ago, and has absolutely loved it, and now I have a reservation for an X. Afraid that once again I am going to have a car with leaks, leather or vegan seats that don't hold up, etc., etc. while he continues to drive his "perfect" S. Ugh. Hoping for some improvements between now and many, many months from now when I actually take delivery. I honestly would get a tried-and-true S or even wait for the 3, but my husband is adamant that we need a car with more passenger capacity than the S. Of course I am planning on the 6 seater, which only gives us one additional seat, and I am wondering whether it is worth the additional expense and hassle. Fingers crossed that I will change my tune once I am a proud owner.
     
  14. Mark Z

    Mark Z Active Member

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    #14 Mark Z, Feb 24, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
    Don't think of a roller coaster (except for a Ludicrous Launch Mode). Think of the smoothness and front cabin view of the Monorail at WDW and the strength and superior all wheel drive handling of Dinosaur at Animal Kingdom or Indiana Jones at Disneyland in California.

    DINOSAUR | Animal Kingdom Attractions | Walt Disney World Resort

    Indiana Jones Adventure | Rides & Attractions | Disneyland Park | Disneyland Resort

    Those triple redundancy computer controlled vehicles have no standard track and are steered through the attraction with only minimal connections. The quality and safety is superb!

    (There are no popping or grinding noises from Model X or the Dinosaur/Indiana Jones vehicles - just all electric drive excitement! Model X doesn't have the tilt of the simulator under Disney's ride vehicle, so don't be concerned about that.)
     
  15. proven

    proven Member

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    We have a 2014 Model S and there have only been a couple of issues and the service has been great. Of course we live only a few miles from the service center, so that helps. My only concerns with the X right now are the durability of the white seats, and the durability of the glossy seat backs. For any other issues that may come up, I'm confident that Tesla's service will take care of them promptly.
     
  16. ABCCBA

    ABCCBA Member

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    Holly - Thanks. And, I love Atlanta G A
     
  17. traxila

    traxila Member

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    Model X Sig 00398 here. P90DL.

    Buy this car. So easy to drive. Have 2013 Model S as well... feels like we are old fogies together, the S and I.

    The only problem I have is that I bought it for my wife so she gets to drive it all the time. :(
     
  18. MikeBur

    MikeBur ManualPilot

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    Apologies, this became a bit of a tome, and I share your quandary.

    I'm a big proponent of informed choices and data-driven expectations. To me the critique of cars is a fundamental prerequisite, and if there were forums on roller coasters then I would read it (btw, there is.. here,), though the analogy is inaccurate as this is the customers, not the park owners or maintenance workers - you give us all too much credit on here. Armed with information, I have can set my own expectations that is driven more by data and less by unencumbered enthusiasm.
    As an early owner of my p85d there were definitely things I wish I knew now vs. then which would have guided me better and grounded my initial expectations - however, as many have said being an early adopter is a conscious decision that's based more on emotion than available data.

    We ordered a production ModelX quite a bit earlier and have it awaiting configuration. One of the earliest sig owners in our area kindly brought their X to an event after I requested and that helped - though there's still no way I'm going to purchase one without driving it. Thankfully just another couple of weeks before we have 15 minutes driving one.

    In terms of faults, issues, etc. It's fair to say that you won't find many people posting "Wow, my car was amazing and had no issues", that's just not the nature of online forums... silence is usually happiness! :)
    Rather, when asked, I've heard no owners who would wish for anything but a Tesla given a repeat purchase. This level of evangelism appears to be primarily due to the satisfaction with Tesla and their ability to think differently, eg. completely voluntary seat belt recall that affected (afaict) 1 car mistake from the entire fleet. Tesla didn't try to hide an issue, instead they announced it proactively, sent early notification for self-test, set up service appointments, and even had staff at the Superchargers to do this proactively for minimal potential inconvenience - never heard of this type of customer sat before. I have many other examples, though you get a flavor hopefully.

    Should you expect the 1st generation of ModelX to be perfect? No.
    There will be niggles and you should expect these. The service centers are great, and will try to accommodate you to minimize inconvenience, though TM appear to be selling cars at a faster rate than the rate of increase of service centers.

    Should you expect continual refinement based upon experiences in the field? Yes.
    Again, compare an early Model S sig to a p90D today and it's amazing how much better fit, finish, etc, are.

    Additionally, we know that Tesla enhances the vehicle capability in software wherever it can (you don't find other car manufacturers doing this). When this requires new hardware which are "easily" retrofitted they have done so - examples I've taken opportunity for are 3G to LTE, and Ludicrous upgrade for original p85d owners. Other examples are more extensive and not available, or cost ineffective, eg. autopilot and 85 to new chemistry on 90 battery.
    Only things which some believe are coming, though unknown when is the corner and/or rear-facing radar for enhanced autopilot. I can't imagine this will be "retro-fittable" unless the wiring harnesses are in place.

    Am I buying the X? If I didn't have my current p85d, or this was a replacement car, given my experience to date: Absolutely, Yes. Though as this is the replacement for my wife's ICE car: still unknown. Ask me in a couple of weeks, post test-drive.

    Good luck, hope this helps,

    Cheers, Mike
     
  19. Papafox

    Papafox Active Member

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    Just as a point of reference...
    I own two Model S cars, one 2013 and the other 2015. I've driven in all 50 states and these two cars have been amazingly reliable. On the 2015, I've had exactly one issue pop up and it took 4 hours in a SC to repair. That's in 20,000 miles. On the 2013, I have 40,000+ miles and average one needed trip to the SC per year. No leaks in the pano roof and I live in Hawaii. Couldn't be happier with the reliability of these vehicles.
     
  20. Uncle Paul

    Uncle Paul Member

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    Common to become a victim of "Forum Induced Anxiety".

    Some posters seem to become super focused on negative aspects, and even potential negative aspects. In some respects this can be very cathartic and a way for people to vent off steam, however it also has the potential to over produce unrealistic concern over a purchase.

    All automotive manufacturers have resorted to a very sophisticated service support system for their very complex vehicles. Simply put, issues arrise, and need to be analysised and addressed. Look behind every car sales center, and you will find a very busy service center dealing with all sorts of issues.

    Because of the much more simple nature of Tesla electric vehicles there will tend to be less issues to be addressed, but still "stuff happens'

    Tesla is most likely much more aware of improvements that are needed to be made, as they see everything on a world wide basis, own their service facilities outright, and get tremendous data with every mile driven by their customers.

    Much better to relax and enjoy the ride. Don't drive yourself crazy worring about potential problems, or issues that have happened to other people.

    I believe that Tesla is building world class and very high quality cars. If something happens they usually are able to resolve it in short order.

    Obviously all of their cars are not going to drive for a million miles with no service needed, but for the most part much of the forum based anxiety is not representative of the general ownership experience.

    I have several friends that have owned Teslas for years. They always speak very highly of their own personal experiences with their cars.
     

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