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To P or NOT to P...

tanner

Active Member
Nov 17, 2013
1,169
450
SoCal
4.3 is without a rollout. Several TMC members have recorded sub 4 second 0-60's at drag strips and with vboxes.
The P85's 0-60, is that rolling or non?

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I had a 2012 P85 and traded it in for a 90D and I don't regret it. It's just as fast (better on low end due to increased traction) and gets more range than it's P counterpart...
That's good to know! I always notice mine tries to burnout and sometimes even fishtails a little before it gets traction and launches.

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I had a P85D as a loaner for a week and after that week I was happy to get back into my regular S85 RWD. I prefer it to the D-models because of the front-motor whine. Now granted it's not extremely loud, but it is a noise that is there all the time.

If I were to upgrade from a P85 to an autopilot car I would probably go 85D or 85. Especially in SoCal where there is more "jam than traffic" ;). But lets face it: All Teslas (even the 70-non D) has more than enough power for any regular driving situation and will destroy almost any ice car from a red light.

I personally don't get why it would be worth it to spend $30-50k more just to shave a few seconds of a 0-60 time that is already low.

Since the suspension on the P and non P models are now the same there is no real difference in driving dynamics anymore. Just choose between comfy (air suspension) or a little more sporty/planted (coils, and they are really comfy too).

I would rather have an S85 + large stack of index stocks than a P85DL and no stocks. But that is really a personal choice and everybody should spend their money as they like.

ugh, so true (all of it). I test drove a P85D the other day and while I LOVE the autopilot, I'm NOT a fan of the front motor noise. In all honesty, I wish mine just had AP.

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It does. And the accelerator is super aggressive which in my experience makes smooth driving harder.
That makes a lot of sense. I wish I could test drive an 85D, sadly most showrooms only have the highest spec'd cars.
 
As an observation - I have and 85D and drove a P85D as a loaner last week. The P was within 1000 serial numbers of my car and both about 3000 miles on the ODO. I may have just been me but the P felt lighter and much more fun to drive even without stomping on it. Same wheels, same steering setting, same suspension. I don't know if the larger rear motor puts more bias on the rear end power but as I drove it in Insane mode the entire day it felt much more natural and sporty even when I was just driving within normal commute parameters. May have been the accelerator pedal sensitivity or just the freaking motors. But there is nothing wrong with the 85D, it silently passes/leaves everyone but felt heavy in comparison.

If this holds true when I get closer to my next car - I will consider the P (or comparable alternative manufacturer if it exists). First world problems.

P85D feels faster in normal speeds because accelerator sensitivity is higher than 85D. The throttle responce is different to make it feel more responsive, but it is not always a good thing in normal daily driving.
 
Thanks for that. I was getting the impression from this site that anybody going for a non-P model was a wuss.

Every time I demonstrate my 85D's acceleration capabilities, my demonstratees have, within 0.8 seconds, yelled out something like "Oh yeah, OK, that's good, we get it... please don't do that again," so I don't need more g's.

Good to know someone agrees you can save 30K and not be a wuss. Right on, non-P-ers.
 
Thanks for that. I was getting the impression from this site that anybody going for a non-P model was a wuss.

Every time I demonstrate my 85D's acceleration capabilities, my demonstratees have, within 0.8 seconds, yelled out something like "Oh yeah, OK, that's good, we get it... please don't do that again," so I don't need more g's.

Good to know someone agrees you can save 30K and not be a wuss. Right on, non-P-ers.

I am with you 100%. I test drove a P85 twice, but am really happy I purchased an 85D. I'm not a "car enthusiast", so I'm very happy to have saved the 30K and still get an amazing experience every time I step on the accelerator.
 

tanner

Active Member
Nov 17, 2013
1,169
450
SoCal
Thanks for that. I was getting the impression from this site that anybody going for a non-P model was a wuss.

Every time I demonstrate my 85D's acceleration capabilities, my demonstratees have, within 0.8 seconds, yelled out something like "Oh yeah, OK, that's good, we get it... please don't do that again," so I don't need more g's.

Good to know someone agrees you can save 30K and not be a wuss. Right on, non-P-ers.
Nice! Everyone says that about my P85 too... I just want it to be comparable (really want autopilot). Also, I may be crazy, but I could have SWORN when I started this thread it was a difference of $30k, now it's $20k...

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To be more accurate, I regret not being able to afford* a P.

*The wife insists that "afford" means being able to comfortably pay it off in 3 years or less.

That said, I find the 85D to be a decent compromise. No way I'd be happy with a 70D or non D 85 though.
yeah, exactly. I just don't wanna go through all the work of selling my perfectly functional/beautiful/mint-condition P85, take a hit in depreciation and end up not being happy with the 85D in the long run.

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I am with you 100%. I test drove a P85 twice, but am really happy I purchased an 85D. I'm not a "car enthusiast", so I'm very happy to have saved the 30K and still get an amazing experience every time I step on the accelerator.
was it a regular P85 or the D? If it was the former, how do the two stack up?
 
Everybody keeps saying it's $30,000 for a "P". And don't get me wrong, the "P" upgrade is NOT cheap, but it's not $30,000. It is $20,000 to upgraded from an 85D to a P85D. And it is a night and day difference. Yes, it's a second faster, but the G forces you feel under acceleration in a P85D really are like no other. It's an experience you just do not get in a regular 85D. If you want the Ludicrous update, that is another $10,000. I've driven both cars and for me, I couldn't feel a difference between the regular P90D and P90DL. Possibly it has to do with tire grip. My P90D doesn't slip the tire one ounce. Possibly the added power slips at the start with the P90DL and reduces the G forces.

While I certainly don't "Need" it, I could afford it and spending $100,000+ on a car already, I didn't ever want the feeling that I left something on the table. As much as I loved my 2013 Model S, I always felt like I was missing something and it just kept eating away at me and did minimize my enjoyment of the car. Now, I am a car guy, so I am into all the neat extras available. If you're just buying it to have an amazing daily driver and never have a need to show off or feel that rush, then a standard 85D or 90D will be great for you. But if you're like me and want ALL the toys available that this car has to offer, then it will bug you that you spent $100,000, but not $120,000 to have it all.

Again, I don't need it and hardly ever use it, but the joy and happiness it puts on my passenger's faces when they go for a ride is priceless. Makes it worth it. Everyone always asked me when I had the 2013, do you have the really fast one? and I had to disappoint them and say no. In this car, they're all excited to go for the "roller coaster" ride, most want to go again and again. That's really what you're paying $20,000 for.

The extra $10,000 fro the Ludicrous mode and the 2/10th's of a second it adds wasn't worth it to me after driving both. Ludicrous felt quicker all the way down, but the initial launch felt no different. Being on city streets, 0-30 is all it takes to make people happy, thus the Ludicrous mode would have added nothing to my overall experience nor to the experience of my passengers.
 

tanner

Active Member
Nov 17, 2013
1,169
450
SoCal
Everybody keeps saying it's $30,000 for a "P". And don't get me wrong, the "P" upgrade is NOT cheap, but it's not $30,000. It is $20,000 to upgraded from an 85D to a P85D. And it is a night and day difference. Yes, it's a second faster, but the G forces you feel under acceleration in a P85D really are like no other. It's an experience you just do not get in a regular 85D. If you want the Ludicrous update, that is another $10,000. I've driven both cars and for me, I couldn't feel a difference between the regular P90D and P90DL. Possibly it has to do with tire grip. My P90D doesn't slip the tire one ounce. Possibly the added power slips at the start with the P90DL and reduces the G forces.

While I certainly don't "Need" it, I could afford it and spending $100,000+ on a car already, I didn't ever want the feeling that I left something on the table. As much as I loved my 2013 Model S, I always felt like I was missing something and it just kept eating away at me and did minimize my enjoyment of the car. Now, I am a car guy, so I am into all the neat extras available. If you're just buying it to have an amazing daily driver and never have a need to show off or feel that rush, then a standard 85D or 90D will be great for you. But if you're like me and want ALL the toys available that this car has to offer, then it will bug you that you spent $100,000, but not $120,000 to have it all.

Again, I don't need it and hardly ever use it, but the joy and happiness it puts on my passenger's faces when they go for a ride is priceless. Makes it worth it. Everyone always asked me when I had the 2013, do you have the really fast one? and I had to disappoint them and say no. In this car, they're all excited to go for the "roller coaster" ride, most want to go again and again. That's really what you're paying $20,000 for.

The extra $10,000 fro the Ludicrous mode and the 2/10th's of a second it adds wasn't worth it to me after driving both. Ludicrous felt quicker all the way down, but the initial launch felt no different. Being on city streets, 0-30 is all it takes to make people happy, thus the Ludicrous mode would have added nothing to my overall experience nor to the experience of my passengers.

Yeah, I hear you... I honestly am happy with my 0-30/60 times now in my P85, I'm just craving autopilot... However, if I can find the right used P85D, I'll scoop it up!
 

bmah

Moderator, Supercharger Hunter
Global Moderator
Mar 17, 2015
5,259
11,496
Lafayette, CA, USA
I am with you 100%. I test drove a P85 twice, but am really happy I purchased an 85D. I'm not a "car enthusiast", so I'm very happy to have saved the 30K and still get an amazing experience every time I step on the accelerator.

Another happy 85D owner here, not a "car guy" either (mostly "techie" with a little bit of "eco"). It didn't make any sense whatsoever for me put down the $20K for the letter "P" (despite my 8-year-old's persistent lobbying at ordering time!), and I'm not ashamed to admit that. Other owners have different criteria and priorities, and I think it's great that the Tesla world is big enough for all of us.

When I do demo launches for friends, I try to save discussion of the car's configuration and performance until afterwards, when I can say "and this isn't even one of the fast ones" (yeah I know the correct terminology is "quick"). :)
 
I ended up buying the P85D and if I had the chance to re-do the decision I'd definitely go with the 85D.
After the first few times of demonstrating it I think I haven't switched the car into insane mode in something like 6 months.
And in non-insane mode the difference to an 85D is almost non-existant.

I also echo this sentiment. The 85D is faster than my old P85. Knowing what I know now, I'd just get an 85D in the future.
 

JonG

Banned
Aug 16, 2015
489
288
UK
All P cars are quoted with roll out
All non P cars are quoted without roll out
The P85D performance is more like 0.6s to 60 different pn a like for like basis and almost identical above 30-40 mph.
The P car extra performance falls off as SOC drops almost to the point that even the 0-60 is the same at IIRC 40% and lower SOC..

The P cars are all about bragging rights and very little to do with actual performance. If you read some of the ludicrous and launch mode threads you'll see people getting very very excited about 0.02s increase in performance to 60 mph and personally I'd prefer not to be in the camp that things thats worth having in a straight line and prefer to be in the camp that thinks some driver training makes you a faster driver than simply spending cash. But maybe thats a European way of thinking.
 
After reading the thread title.... I thought to myself..."I know where this is going to go.."
And to that end, I was not disappointed.

Roll the clock back to 1960's... "Those Shelby Mustangs are all about the bragging rights" or "Hemi Cuda? Knowing what I know now... I'll just get a slant 6 Valiant"...

Sigh...

Bjorn has posted a video of his trip to Germany in a P85D with his "WiFI" his joke not mine... Now as we know, his "Falcon" is no slouch being a P85. That one hour video is a really honest review from someone who drives a great deal. I did find his and his wife's mild objections to the Next Gen seats quite interesting and unique from his use perspective. He also shows a few shortcomings of the rear Next Gen seats which BTW are no longer offered by Tesla.

Now, Lastly, I think personally that the current P model of the S is not differentiated enough and is why perhaps some posters here cannot see paying the P tariff. The P class, should have more uniqueness other than badging on the hatch, red break calipers and foot pedals. I feel that Tesla should make the P cars somewhat more special. The removal of the performance suspension just made the P line more numbingly normal.

To my mind the P line should have some advanced battery cooling and heating subsystems which would allow it to maintain higher performance thresholds. Also, advanced hardware concepts should be first introduced on the P line and then make their way to the rest of the S family over time if appropriate. Examples of this would be active tracking headlights, noise cancelling system, air conditioned seating and advanced air filtration system and upholstery surfaces and patterns, heads up display, tunable damper settings for the suspension, hyperdrive gearing, larger breaking system, paddle shift for launch control and Ludicrous vs Sport performance selection, and of course unique P exterior colors. Well the options are endless.

So what I am saying, is the P class should be much more special, those ordering it should expect to wait a bit longer for it as these options would make the build a bit more complex at the expense of expense.

As you recall perhaps, the Nex Gen seats when they were first introduced were only available on the P85D.... Only later on were they made available on all S models....

Ok, here is the link to Bjorn Nylon's P85D review in case you missed it --->Tesla Model S P85D review - YouTube

Sorry to have somewhat ranted.... Please take no offense, as I did not intend that at all.

PS: I just cannot let this go by the boards.... whom ever said that the P throttle response is touchy has NOT spent time driving the P much at all or was driving a unique S. In fact I have spent a great deal of time driving P85D and P90D in confined traffic and parking lot areas and have MARVELED in the fact that the P car throttle response mapping is in fact so refined as to make me smile at the remarkable engineering that was involved. It can be driven very slowly and none twitchy with ease. Lastly, if you choose SPORT mode on the P85D or P90D what you have then is a 85D or 90D with much more available low end torque.
 
Last edited:

tanner

Active Member
Nov 17, 2013
1,169
450
SoCal
I also echo this sentiment. The 85D is faster than my old P85. Knowing what I know now, I'd just get an 85D in the future.
Really? Faster? I think I'll see if my service center has one to test drive.

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It was a regular P85 that I test drove - I can't tell any difference at all between that and my 85D - at least in terms of acceleration and general day-to-day driving. But again, I'm not really an expert in such matters.
That's great to hear! How much do you love autopilot?

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All P cars are quoted with roll out
All non P cars are quoted without roll out
The P85D performance is more like 0.6s to 60 different pn a like for like basis and almost identical above 30-40 mph.
The P car extra performance falls off as SOC drops almost to the point that even the 0-60 is the same at IIRC 40% and lower SOC..
I understood about half of that... Haha

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After reading the thread title.... I thought to myself..."I know where this is going to go.."
And to that end, I was not disappointed.

Roll the clock back to 1960's... "Those Shelby Mustangs are all about the bragging rights" or "Hemi Cuda? Knowing what I know now... I'll just get a slant 6 Valiant"...

Sigh...

Bjorn has posted a video of his trip to Germany in a P85D with his "WiFI" his joke not mine... Now as we know, his "Falcon" is no slouch being a P85. That one hour video is a really honest review from someone who drives a great deal. I did find his and his wife's mild objections to the Next Gen seats quite interesting and unique from his use perspective. He also shows a few shortcomings of the rear Next Gen seats which BTW are no longer offered by Tesla.

Now, Lastly, I think personally that the current P model of the S is not differentiated enough and is why perhaps some posters here cannot see paying the P tariff. The P class, should have more uniqueness other than badging on the hatch, red break calipers and foot pedals. I feel that Tesla should make the P cars somewhat more special. The removal of the performance suspension just made the P line more numbingly normal.

To my mind the P line should have some advanced battery cooling and heating subsystems which would allow it to maintain higher performance thresholds. Also, advanced hardware concepts should be first introduced on the P line and then make their way to the rest of the S family over time if appropriate. Examples of this would be active tracking headlights, noise cancelling system, air conditioned seating and advanced air filtration system and upholstery surfaces and patterns, heads up display, tunable damper settings for the suspension, hyperdrive gearing, larger breaking system, paddle shift for launch control and Ludicrous vs Sport performance selection, and of course unique P exterior colors. Well the options are endless.

So what I am saying, is the P class should be much more special, those ordering it should expect to wait a bit longer for it as these options would make the build a bit more complex at the expense of expense.

As you recall perhaps, the Nex Gen seats when they were first introduced were only available on the P85D.... Only later on were they made available on all S models....

Ok, here is the link to Bjorn Nylon's P85D review in case you missed it --->Tesla Model S P85D review - YouTube

Sorry to have somewhat ranted.... Please take no offense, as I did not intend that at all.

PS: I just cannot let this go by the boards.... whom ever said that the P throttle response is touchy has NOT spent time driving the P much at all or was driving a unique S. In fact I have spent a great deal of time driving P85D and P90D in confined traffic and parking lot areas and have MARVELED in the fact that the P car throttle response mapping is in fact so refined as to make me smile at the remarkable engineering that was involved. It can be driven very slowly and none twitchy with ease. Lastly, if you choose SPORT mode on the P85D or P90D what you have then is a 85D or 90D with much more available low end torque.
Interesting read, I agree, the P should be more distinguished. Also though, it does have a motor that's double the size in the back.
 
After reading the thread title.... I thought to myself..."I know where this is going to go.."
And to that end, I was not disappointed.

Roll the clock back to 1960's... "Those Shelby Mustangs are all about the bragging rights" or "Hemi Cuda? Knowing what I know now... I'll just get a slant 6 Valiant"...

Sigh...

Bjorn has posted a video of his trip to Germany in a P85D with his "WiFI" his joke not mine... Now as we know, his "Falcon" is no slouch being a P85. That one hour video is a really honest review from someone who drives a great deal. I did find his and his wife's mild objections to the Next Gen seats quite interesting and unique from his use perspective. He also shows a few shortcomings of the rear Next Gen seats which BTW are no longer offered by Tesla.

Now, Lastly, I think personally that the current P model of the S is not differentiated enough and is why perhaps some posters here cannot see paying the P tariff. The P class, should have more uniqueness other than badging on the hatch, red break calipers and foot pedals. I feel that Tesla should make the P cars somewhat more special. The removal of the performance suspension just made the P line more numbingly normal.

To my mind the P line should have some advanced battery cooling and heating subsystems which would allow it to maintain higher performance thresholds. Also, advanced hardware concepts should be first introduced on the P line and then make their way to the rest of the S family over time if appropriate. Examples of this would be active tracking headlights, noise cancelling system, air conditioned seating and advanced air filtration system and upholstery surfaces and patterns, heads up display, tunable damper settings for the suspension, hyperdrive gearing, larger breaking system, paddle shift for launch control and Ludicrous vs Sport performance selection, and of course unique P exterior colors. Well the options are endless.

So what I am saying, is the P class should be much more special, those ordering it should expect to wait a bit longer for it as these options would make the build a bit more complex at the expense of expense.

As you recall perhaps, the Nex Gen seats when they were first introduced were only available on the P85D.... Only later on were they made available on all S models....

Ok, here is the link to Bjorn Nylon's P85D review in case you missed it --->Tesla Model S P85D review - YouTube

Sorry to have somewhat ranted.... Please take no offense, as I did not intend that at all.

PS: I just cannot let this go by the boards.... whom ever said that the P throttle response is touchy has NOT spent time driving the P much at all or was driving a unique S. In fact I have spent a great deal of time driving P85D and P90D in confined traffic and parking lot areas and have MARVELED in the fact that the P car throttle response mapping is in fact so refined as to make me smile at the remarkable engineering that was involved. It can be driven very slowly and none twitchy with ease. Lastly, if you choose SPORT mode on the P85D or P90D what you have then is a 85D or 90D with much more available low end torque.

I completely agree. Would love to see the P differentiated more. Maybe the speculated "refresh" will give us a couple of options. I'm still on the fence between the P90D and 90D.
 
Your 0-60 will only increase by .2 though with the L upgrade...

It's not only 0-60 but acceleration from 20, 40, 60 and 80 up...

Look at the Thread "Performance of P85D with Ludicrous upgrade review" In part it states:
"The P85D with ludicrous upgrade is significantly faster than without. There is 19% more power above 30 mph, 0-60 time drops from 3.2 to 2.9 seconds and the quarter mile time drops from 11.8 to 11.5. So it was fast before and is faster now. You get about two-thirds of the improvement if you don’t heat the battery with max battery power."

it seems like a few who can't upgrade to the Ludicrous mode downplay the benefits.
 

dirkhh

Middle-aged Member
Jul 7, 2013
3,638
128
Portland, OR, USA
Now, Lastly, I think personally that the current P model of the S is not differentiated enough and is why perhaps some posters here cannot see paying the P tariff. The P class, should have more uniqueness other than badging on the hatch, red break calipers and foot pedals. I feel that Tesla should make the P cars somewhat more special. The removal of the performance suspension just made the P line more numbingly normal.
I bought my P85D with black calipers, 19" wheels and, no spoiler and no type badge. So that makes no difference to me at all, quite the contrary - had there been something that would have guaranteed from the outside that people can tell this is a P85D I would certainly not have bought it.
To my mind the P line should have some advanced battery cooling and heating subsystems which would allow it to maintain higher performance thresholds. Also, advanced hardware concepts should be first introduced on the P line and then make their way to the rest of the S family over time if appropriate. Examples of this would be active tracking headlights, noise cancelling system, air conditioned seating and advanced air filtration system and upholstery surfaces and patterns, heads up display, tunable damper settings for the suspension, hyperdrive gearing, larger breaking system, paddle shift for launch control and Ludicrous vs Sport performance selection, and of course unique P exterior colors. Well the options are endless.
Instead, what happened was that when I ordered the car the P85D was about 2 seconds quicker than the 85D. A few weeks after I took delivery we got the "performance update". The P85D got a .1 second improvement and the 85D got a 1.3 second improvement (all these numbers are from memory, too lazy to go back and look them up - but it was something along those lines... so the difference shrunk to less than a second.
Oh and then came the hugely hyped ludicrous announcement and the raving lunatics told me that for only an extra $8k (or something like that - there's a discount for the existing P85D owners) I could get another .2 second improvement... yeah, so glad I spent the extra $20k up front...
As you recall perhaps, the Nex Gen seats when they were first introduced were only available on the P85D.... Only later on were they made available on all S models....
Correct. And many of the people who ordered them in their P85D then received old seats (or at least old back seats) and quite a few of them where only upgraded long after 85Ds with next gen seats started shipping
PS: I just cannot let this go by the boards.... whom ever said that the P throttle response is touchy has NOT spent time driving the P much at all or was driving a unique S.
Well, I drove 25k miles in a Model S 60 and now 13k miles in a Model S P85D and to me the accelerator... sorry "throttle response" in the Model S 60 was significantly more pleasant. I have since twice had the opportunity to drive a Model S 85D and felt that was much closer to what I was used to from my 60.

Long story short. I wish I hadn't bought a P85D. I spent a ton of money on something that every day I don't think I get anything out of. Live and learn, I guess. Don't get me wrong, it's a great car, yada yada yada. I just know that had I bought an 85D I would be no less happy and have $20k more in my account.
 

tanner

Active Member
Nov 17, 2013
1,169
450
SoCal
I bought my P85D with black calipers, 19" wheels and, no spoiler and no type badge. So that makes no difference to me at all, quite the contrary - had there been something that would have guaranteed from the outside that people can tell this is a P85D I would certainly not have bought it.
So yours doesn't have the "P85D" indicator on the back? I didn't even know you could do that.... Let's see some pics :D
 

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