Top Gear Magazine: Model 3 Performance is faster around a track than the BMW M3!

[usofrob]

Similarly, I'm looking forward to the day when I can replace my Lotus Elise with an electic vehicle. But, right now the Model 3 just isn't as engaging. I'm hoping to try someone's aftermarket suspension to see how much it helps, or maybe getting the Porsche Boxster when they release the all electric version in a few years.

To get back on topic, here's the video: Video: Tesla Model 3 vs BMW M3

 

[laalves911]

Well, a win is a win, but it has a caveat, how relevant/important is that caveat is up to the consumer. My view is that currently, no EV matches the better tuned petrol car for pleasurability yet (yes, I test drove the Model S 100 with Ludicrous as well as the P3D). If your thing is clinical efficiency around a track or in the weekend twisties, go for a P3D. If your thing is mix high performance with engaging behaviour, exhilaration, a good measure of hooliganism and sheer fun, I think that a petrol high performance car is still the choice.

BUT

That will not be the case forever. Let's wait for the Roadster and see.

Still, the big thing is weight, and probably as long as batteries do not do a big technology jump and the energy/weight ratio does not improve, the nimbleness required of a super/hypercar, it doesn't matter how much power/torque you have, behaviour will not be there.

And a 200kWh battery does not bode well for the Roadster because that will mean twice the weight of the S/X 100 battery (which honestly, to me the S felt like an oil tanker around corners). Mmmm....

 

[moridin2002]

Well, a win is a win, but it has a caveat, how relevant/important is that caveat is up to the consumer. My view is that currently, no EV matches the better tuned petrol car for pleasurability yet (yes, I test drove the Model S 100 with Ludicrous as well as the P3D). If your thing is clinical efficiency around a track or in the weekend twisties, go for a P3D. If your thing is mix high performance with engaging behaviour, exhilaration, a good measure of hooliganism and sheer fun, I think that a petrol high performance car is still the choice.

BUT

That will not be the case forever. Let's wait for the Roadster and see.

Still, the big thing is weight, and probably as long as batteries do not do a big technology jump and the energy/weight ratio does not improve, the nimbleness required of a super/hypercar, it doesn't matter how much power/torque you have, behaviour will not be there.

And a 200kWh battery does not bode well for the Roadster because that will mean twice the weight of the S/X 100 battery (which honestly, to me the S felt like an oil tanker around corners). Mmmm....

I don't think that's necessarily true regarding the Roadster. Model S will now do 370 miles on 100kWh at roughly 4900lbs. Extrapolating that out to 621 miles would mean 168kWh (not accounting for additional weight). Model 3 does 310 miles on 78kWh at 4,072 lbs. If you assume the Roadster would weigh the same as a 3 with a pack twice the size, but with similar same efficiency (Roadster is smaller, extensive use of carbon fiber, more expensive but lighter materials, and a smaller CdA), you would need 156kWh (1000kg at 150Wh/kg). Not that much different than something like an Aventador (~3800lbs wet), BMW M5 (4400lbs), Acura NSX (3900 lbs), or Nissan GTR (3900 lbs). Granted, something like a 488 (3250), 720S (3200lbs), or GT3 (3150) will be a bit different on the weight front though.

 

[laalves911]

I don't think that's necessarily true regarding the Roadster. Model S will now do 370 miles on 100kWh at roughly 4900lbs. Extrapolating that out to 621 miles would mean 168kWh (not accounting for additional weight). Model 3 does 310 miles on 78kWh at 4,072 lbs. If you assume the Roadster would weigh the same as a 3 with a pack twice the size, but with similar same efficiency (Roadster is smaller, extensive use of carbon fiber, more expensive but lighter materials, and a smaller CdA), you would need 156kWh (1000kg at 150Wh/kg). Not that much different than something like an Aventador (~3800lbs wet), BMW M5 (4400lbs), Acura NSX (3900 lbs), or Nissan GTR (3900 lbs). Granted, something like a 488 (3250), 720S (3200lbs), or GT3 (3150) will be a bit different on the weight front though.

Dunno. I read somewhere (electrek?) it would have a 200kWh battery. Wikipedia does say that, BTW, but I don't know if that is coming from Tesla or is just an assumption. If technology is the same as the current batteries, then it's a 2000lbs battery. That's a lot of weight. If that's the case we're looking at a 5500lbs car.

 

[SR22pilot]

Similarly, I'm looking forward to the day when I can replace my Lotus Elise with an electic vehicle. But, right now the Model 3 just isn't as engaging. I'm hoping to try someone's aftermarket suspension to see how much it helps, or maybe getting the Porsche Boxster when they release the all electric version in a few years.

To get back on topic, here's the video: Video: Tesla Model 3 vs BMW M3

Perhaps true but you are running into a problem as cars advance. I had an Acura NSX. It was wonderful but it didn't seem to really come into its own till above 80. It was a nice daily driver except for stop and go traffic. However, I think if people were honest with themselves they would vote an old MGA or perhaps Jag XKE as more engaging at legal speeds than today's cars. Modern tires, among other things, have placed the limits so high that you need to be on a track to really have fun. The NSX was a blast on a track. The instant power control on the Model 3 together with a decent suspension has brought back some of the legal speed fun for me albeit in a different way. I understand your comment and the Elise may be a blast but most high performance cars have limits that are very high.

 

[Candleflame]

Perhaps true but you are running into a problem as cars advance. I had an Acura NSX. It was wonderful but it didn't seem to really come into its own till above 80. It was a nice daily driver except for stop and go traffic. However, I think if people were honest with themselves they would vote an old MGA or perhaps Jag XKE as more engaging at legal speeds than today's cars. Modern tires, among other things, have placed the limits so high that you need to be on a track to really have fun. The NSX was a blast on a track. The instant power control on the Model 3 together with a decent suspension has brought back some of the legal speed fun for me albeit in a different way. I understand your comment and the Elise may be a blast but most high performance cars have limits that are very high.

even comparing an i.e. 2001 bmw 3 series to a 2010 bmw 3 series makes a huge difference. The 2001 car really starts to shake and feel unsteady at over 180kmh, the 2010 is glued to the road with less noise and better control.

 

[laalves911]

Perhaps true but you are running into a problem as cars advance. I had an Acura NSX. It was wonderful but it didn't seem to really come into its own till above 80. It was a nice daily driver except for stop and go traffic. However, I think if people were honest with themselves they would vote an old MGA or perhaps Jag XKE as more engaging at legal speeds than today's cars. Modern tires, among other things, have placed the limits so high that you need to be on a track to really have fun. The NSX was a blast on a track. The instant power control on the Model 3 together with a decent suspension has brought back some of the legal speed fun for me albeit in a different way. I understand your comment and the Elise may be a blast but most high performance cars have limits that are very high.

Completely true as to old cars. One the funnest cars I ever drove was a Morris Mini 1000cc (1970ish). At 80km/h around the twisties gives you a smile that will last for hours. It's such a fun car, so low, so small and light and has a square planform.

In my country, we have classic car racing events that include slaloms and the old Mini, in capable hands still is a strong contender.

 

[usofrob]

Perhaps true but you are running into a problem as cars advance. I had an Acura NSX. It was wonderful but it didn't seem to really come into its own till above 80. It was a nice daily driver except for stop and go traffic. However, I think if people were honest with themselves they would vote an old MGA or perhaps Jag XKE as more engaging at legal speeds than today's cars. Modern tires, among other things, have placed the limits so high that you need to be on a track to really have fun. The NSX was a blast on a track. The instant power control on the Model 3 together with a decent suspension has brought back some of the legal speed fun for me albeit in a different way. I understand your comment and the Elise may be a blast but most high performance cars have limits that are very high.

I agree. Sometimes I feel like I should put less grippy tires on my car to make things more fun. I'm pretty sure the Model 3 is faster at just about everything than the Elise. It's mostly just the steering feel and directness. Also, the Elise's throttle response actually seems faster than the Model 3. I suspect it has to do with the much stiffer aftermarket suspension on the Elise. The Model 3 just takes too long to settle. I find steering response can be enjoyed at nearly any speed without needing to break the tires loose. But, the Model 3 can reaaaally pull out of corners.

 

[MasterC17]

There's no way the Roadster will weigh more than the Model 3. I am guessing it will end up around the 3,500lb mark, possibly even less.

I think the Model 3 is really going to shine with aftermarket,racing-derived suspension. I will know soon enough and will share.

 

[gilscales]

People generally roll their eyes when I warn them, but then are left speechless afterwards!

My first experience with an EV of any kind was when a Tesla salesman loaned me a P100DL overnight to try to sell me an S while im waiting on my 3.

I went on an overnight trip to San Diego and stopped by a friends house in Vista to take him and his wife for a ride, I warned them about how fast the car was, he scoffed, I told him its really too fast, he scoffed again, I floored it and heard a loud clicking sound, it was his wife's hair clip that flew off her head and hit the rear window, haha, he agreed it was too fast!

I still chuckle to myself when I think about that and although I did not wait for the P3D (wish I had) I have a lot of fun with my slow (by comparison) LR RWD

 

[maglianera]

FWIW - my weekend car is an AMG GT, V8 Bi-Turbo. This is a 'track focused' machine that I have had tuned (ECU/Downpipes) to a bit under 650hp. This cars main limiting factor is traction, as even a light tap of the gas and the rear tires spin. I have gotten myself in a bit of trouble with this car on more than one occasion, and I don't dare turn off the traction control 100%... The car is a front engine and weighs around 3,600 pounds wet.

I'm sure I'd get flak for this in the Mercedes forums, but having owned my P3D (and used it daily) for the past few months, I can say that in pretty much every aspect I feel the Tesla is faster. The one exception would be braking where the Carbon Ceramics on my GT are way, way better in feel, modulation and power. The one thing where the Model 3 fails is the brakes, and I will for certain be upgrading them in the future.

IMHO I feel that the noise/exhaust, low ride height and harsh ride that supercars provide are all sensations that 'seem' faster or more thrilling, entertaining, etc. - but in real life, you can't outperform the acceleration and torque of a battery/motor. Using Dragy, the best real-world 0-60 I can hit in my GT with a rollout is 3.7 seconds. Using the same device on my Model 3 I consistently hit 3.3 and have seen 3.201 as a personal best on 93% SOC and warm tires.

I will always want a gas-powered 'supercar'in my garage, but only for the void that an electric vehicle simply can't fill - but I won't kid myself, in the not-so-distant future ALL benchmarks will be set by electric powered supercars, Tesla or otherwise.

 

[MrRoboto]

It's so nice to finally read a thread that can appreciate the merits of both a proper petrol sports car and a Tesla. I read too many comments on how a model 3 will "ruin all ice cars" for you, or how electric cars are stupid/expensive/impractical/etc. Nice to find you bunch.

I've got an air-cooled 911 and there's no way my model 3 AWD could ever replace it, and vice versa. Lucky to have both. And my truck. Can't forget the truck.

 

[zhu-]

It's so nice to finally read a thread that can appreciate the merits of both a proper petrol sports car and a Tesla. I read too many comments on how a model 3 will "ruin all ice cars" for you, or how electric cars are stupid/expensive/impractical/etc. Nice to find you bunch.

I've got an air-cooled 911 and there's no way my model 3 AWD could ever replace it, and vice versa. Lucky to have both. And my truck. Can't forget the truck.

I completely agree. Just like someone shopping for a $30k Rolex isn't going to be convinced to go with a $30 Casio no matter how much more accurate and reliable it might be. High end ICE vehicles will always exist as emotional purchases while the lower end ICE market whose purpose is entirely transportation will eventually phase out entirely for EVs.

 

[brianman]

Dunno. I read somewhere (electrek?) it would have a 200kWh battery. Wikipedia does say that, BTW, but I don't know if that is coming from Tesla or is just an assumption. If technology is the same as the current batteries, then it's a 2000lbs battery. That's a lot of weight. If that's the case we're looking at a 5500lbs car.

From Tesla:

 

[IraB]

Waiting for my M3P and hoping it feels as exciting to drive as the Audi RS3 it is replacing. It will be interesting to see given similar performance, but a 500 lbs weight delta. As for overall driving excitement, I had a NIssan GT-R for a year and it definitely suffered from the boring below 80 MPH syndrome. By contrast, my 2017 911 C4 GTS is fun and exciting at all speeds, so it is possible for a modern sports car to provide excitement rather than feeling robotic and aloof at lower speeds. Also, because it is AWD, the 911 will be faster than the M3P, but only a bit.

It will be interesting to see if the Tesla sports car can avoid feeling like the GT-R which is frequently slammed for achieving its performance through "software tricks" rather than traditional means.

 

[ztuner]

It will be interesting to see if the Tesla sports car can avoid feeling like the GT-R which is frequently slammed for achieving its performance through "software tricks" rather than traditional means.

The Tesla is exactly that but i didn't care in the GTR and i don't care in the P3D. To me fast is fast. I will say however that the P3d is good but not great YET. I feel the track mode is a good step but they need to give the end user even more control so the response and handling can be tuned further. Would love a chill, sport, sport + and track mode. Its so darn easy for them to allow user configurable throttle response and traction control. It has good bones, anxiously awaiting the next iteration

 

[alexGS]

It's so nice to finally read a thread that can appreciate the merits of both a proper petrol sports car and a Tesla. I read too many comments on how a model 3 will "ruin all ice cars" for you, or how electric cars are stupid/expensive/impractical/etc. Nice to find you bunch.

I've got an air-cooled 911 and there's no way my model 3 AWD could ever replace it, and vice versa. Lucky to have both. And my truck. Can't forget the truck.

Absolutely

The more ‘super’ the car, the more annoying I find driving it. Your Porsche would be a much more pleasant drive than my green beast. The low seating position and good ergonomics are probably the best part. I find the engine has to be worked hard to deliver good performance - moving off from a start feels like it’s in 3rd gear not 1st gear (it’s hard on the clutch), and below 4000RPM, there isn’t enough torque to climb a hill without the speed dropping away. All six ratios are close together, so an overtaking manoeuvre typically requires two or even three gears down - nothing is ever smooth or easy in this car! Unlike a Mercedes, it can’t be described as “effortlessly fast”, and the body flex/wobbles in the steering column make for a generally awful drive. Bits like grilles, tail lights, and exhaust tips fall off regularly. Panel gaps are all over the place.

But whenever it’s parked up, it attracts a crowd

-Alex

 

[MoreAgain]

I feel the track mode is a good step but they need to give the end user even more control so the response and handling can be tuned further. Would love a chill, sport, sport + and track mode. Its so darn easy for them to allow user configurable throttle response and traction control. It has good bones, anxiously awaiting the next iteration

Agreed, the Model 3 would be amazing with more configuration control.

Yeah, I don't care for the UI they show either, but I am in favor of more control. It doesn't even have to be a radical change, just an evolution. Key for me would be to have a true sliding scale versus on/off. Having some preset points along the way would be helpful to guide the less control-oriented owners.

Acceleration: Chill - Standard - Sport - Track (for all variants)
Regen: None - Mild - Standard - Extreme
Traction: Standard to Reduced to Minimal to Off (I find slip start useless)

 

[Nocturnal]

Well, a win is a win, but it has a caveat, how relevant/important is that caveat is up to the consumer. My view is that currently, no EV matches the better tuned petrol car for pleasurability yet (yes, I test drove the Model S 100 with Ludicrous as well as the P3D). If your thing is clinical efficiency around a track or in the weekend twisties, go for a P3D. If your thing is mix high performance with engaging behaviour, exhilaration, a good measure of hooliganism and sheer fun, I think that a petrol high performance car is still the choice.

BUT

That will not be the case forever. Let's wait for the Roadster and see.

Still, the big thing is weight, and probably as long as batteries do not do a big technology jump and the energy/weight ratio does not improve, the nimbleness required of a super/hypercar, it doesn't matter how much power/torque you have, behaviour will not be there.

And a 200kWh battery does not bode well for the Roadster because that will mean twice the weight of the S/X 100 battery (which honestly, to me the S felt like an oil tanker around corners). Mmmm....

I'd take this as the exact opposite. This means that the car will feel far faster and nimble on the road to the average driver. Only track nerds will care about technical fundamentals and endurance for all day track sessions.

The vast majority of drivers just want their car to go fast from a stoplight to show off or while merging.

 

[Steveblt]

Absolutely

The more ‘super’ the car, the more annoying I find driving it. Your Porsche would be a much more pleasant drive than my green beast. The low seating position and good ergonomics are probably the best part. I find the engine has to be worked hard to deliver good performance - moving off from a start feels like it’s in 3rd gear not 1st gear (it’s hard on the clutch), and below 4000RPM, there isn’t enough torque to climb a hill without the speed dropping away. All six ratios are close together, so an overtaking manoeuvre typically requires two or even three gears down - nothing is ever smooth or easy in this car! Unlike a Mercedes, it can’t be described as “effortlessly fast”, and the body flex/wobbles in the steering column make for a generally awful drive. Bits like grilles, tail lights, and exhaust tips fall off regularly. Panel gaps are all over the place.

But whenever it’s parked up, it attracts a crowd

-Alex

Can anyone give me a referral code. I am about to order my Model 3. My e mail is steveblt01@gmail. Thanks