Top Gear Magazine: Model 3 Performance is faster around a track than the BMW M3!

[SammichLover]

Even out at Big Willow with 30 minute sessions I found myself staying out to the bitter end. I put in 58 laps over four sessions out there and barely made it back to the supercharger at the end of the day.

So you were on the track for 2 hrs (!)? Or at least 1.5 hr, to put up 58 laps. So what would you say the quality of those laps ranged to, what did you get out of them when you stayed out so long? What did you learn, what did you improve?

I fully understand the urge, and cast no stones here, yet I will say self-discipline is a wonderful thing.

 

[MoreAgain]

So you were on the track for 2 hrs?

Yes! Very close to two full hours on track. One of the few advantages of the RWD is that it doesn't get through the battery quite as quickly as the dual motor variants, and very rarely gets hot enough to restrict power.

This was my first outing with the beta version of the MPP PartyBox (VSC killer for RWD). I had also never been to Big Willow before, so the morning sessions were all about getting a feel for the track and learning the line, first with the stock TC/VSC and then trying out the various levels of the Partybox.

I focused on getting individual corners right rather than optimizing the full lap. After a full SC at lunch, I set out to get a hot lap early in the session (with stock TC), and spent the rest of that session working on the 3-4-5 corner combination as well as trying to get better at turn 9, which leads onto the front straight.

With just over 55% battery remaining I went into the 4th session in full party mode (VSC off and TC slip angle set to the max of 60%) Set my PB on my first full lap, and the rest of the session having some RWD fun letting the back end hang out.

I treat my track time kinda like time on the golf course- my lap times may not be at par overall, but it still feels great to get a few 'birdie' corners in here and there!

 

[brianman]

I’m more & more coming to the opinion that shorter time on track is more. The 3 has essentially zero “warm-up” requirement.

Maybe it’s the people (all ICE, most longtime regulars) I’ve gone w/but if anything I’m closer to using it all than most when there’s that much time in the day. I get the impression it is the “all you can eat” scenario where you’re actually going to have a better overall enjoyment if you don’t gorge yourself to “get the most value” through bulk.

What on-site charging do you have? 11kW w/10 min sessions on the hour should keep you going most of the day. If you’re close to a SC to get a big bump mid-day it should be no problem even w/higher draw of the P and 15 min.

Some tracks I'm lucky to get a 240V @ 32A, but not all of them. Most of them I head to lunch to supercharge -- it's 90 + charging round-trip for ORP; slightly better for the Ridge. PIR is 10 mi from the supercharger so it's a much better option.

10 min sessions isn't enough. That's 3-4 laps, which is just slightly more than I would get in the Model S. I've noticed that it's a lot easier to refine my line with the 3 than with the S due to repetition in a single session.

 

[StealthP3D]

It’s polite to tell passengers to put their heads back on the headrest in electric cars with this much performance, before you gun it. I gave my 70-year-old neighbor whiplash (for real) when I test drove the P3D.

I keep the passenger seatback of my P3D in a relatively upright position. This keeps most peoples heads within an inch of the headrest. I still look over before I hit the accelerator to make sure they are sitting and looking straight ahead.

 

[StealthP3D]

I went on an overnight trip to San Diego and stopped by a friends house in Vista to take him and his wife for a ride, I warned them about how fast the car was, he scoffed, I told him its really too fast, he scoffed again, I floored it and heard a loud clicking sound, it was his wife's hair clip that flew off her head and hit the rear window, haha, he agreed it was too fast!

That reminded me of this from the 1970's:


Is it live or is it Memorex?

 

[SammichLover]

Some tracks I'm lucky to get a 240V @ 32A, but not all of them.

That's the core issue there, then. Getting full L2 helps a lot, although Performance drivers will still feel it due to the HVAC of Track Mode and how much power it can lay down when you ask it to.

10 min sessions isn't enough. That's 3-4 laps, which is just slightly more than I would get in the Model S. I've noticed that it's a lot easier to refine my line with the 3 than with the S due to repetition in a single session.

I'm finding it much easier to sit and think about them in-between, rerun just the few of them in my mind over and over then go back. I guess a personal preference.

Until such time that there's dramatic battery tech refresh by Tesla, and I expect that to be years out due to first existing and then the cost dropping to fit the Model 3 price points, I really don't think you'll want anything meaningfully bigger than the LR pack. With the vehicle already a smidgen over 2 ton you want to avoid any more weight on the track, right?

 

[MasterC17]

That'll be quite a trick with 200kWh of battery. The Model 3 battery density is roughly what the Model S was, I think? About 210Wh/kg. That'd make it roughly 950kg, or 2100lb for the battery pack alone! You're talking 1400lb for the three drive units + "glider". With a frame capable of supporting that 2100lb (plus occupants).

If the battery is significantly lighter than that it'll have repercussions that'll vibrate far past that car, and the track capability for the Roadster it implies.

Well, I suspect the Roadster pack is quite a bit under 200kWh. I mean the S now goes 370 miles with a 100kWh pack and it is likely much heavier and less aerodynamic than the Roadster will be. Who knows, I am going to guess around 150kWh though.

 

[SammichLover]

Well, I suspect the Roadster pack is quite a bit under 200kWh. I mean the S now goes 370 miles with a 100kWh pack and it is likely much heavier and less aerodynamic than the Roadster will be. Who knows, I am going to guess around 150kWh though.

Battery capacity is Musk's number from the reveal. The EPA range is "over 600 miles", very unlikely they'll optimize design for EPA range. I doubt it'll come with stock tires that are low RR, range focused tires.

 

[wenkan]

Well, I suspect the Roadster pack is quite a bit under 200kWh. I mean the S now goes 370 miles with a 100kWh pack and it is likely much heavier and less aerodynamic than the Roadster will be. Who knows, I am going to guess around 150kWh though.

On the other hand roadster should have much higher downforce to keep stable in 250mph. That may increase the drag instead of reducing it. The tires (cup2 I guess) are also stickier.

 

[SammichLover]

On the other hand roadster should have much higher downforce to keep stable in 250mph. That may increase the drag instead of reducing it.

True this. The same with any of these speed monsters. They look smooth like fish swimming through water but they have high Cd for street cars in general, much less the tiny ones that Teslas normally have. A Bugatti Chiron's Cd for example ranges from .35 to .40 depending on the mode it is in.

An F1 car will have a Cd approaching 1.0 , situations depending. They are basically an upside-down airplane. Of course keeping in mind they have a relatively small frontal cross-section, and Cd is a co-efficent of that.

 

[IraB]

Perhaps the Roadster will feature (a) newer, very expensive, higher energy density batteries that only a sticker price of $200K+ can support thus providing the extended range without actually weighing 2,000 pounds; and (b) clever, variable aero stuff that will create no additional drag at normal speeds, but will swing into action at speeds appropriate for a race course thereby providing downforce when necessary with little or no penalty for everyday driving,

I would expect both of these and more for the projected price of this monster. Let's face it, this is approaching Porsche GT2 RS price territory and that is a high performance bar to exceed.

 

[jyalpert]

Most lapping days are 5-7 sessions ranging from 15-25 minutes. On a non-snowy day (i.e. rain or shine), I'm lucky to get 2 sessions in the morning and 1.5 in the afternoon -- that's with a trip to the supercharger over lunch. I'd like to get the full day that I'm paying for.

Yeah this is my main concern. If I'm going to pay $250 and call in the favor from my wife to do a HPDE, I want to actually drive the track. Right now I get to do 5-7x 20m sessions in my Miata. My local tracks are Laguna Seca and Thunderhill. The nearest supercharger to Laguna is in Salinas, which is like 20-30m away, so I'd probably miss at least one session going out there. So if I had to go out there twice in a day, I'm missing half the track day. And there is no supercharger anywhere near Thunderhill, so that's totally out.

I dunno, for now I think it's kind of impractical to track my Model 3, especially since it's standard range and I'd probably have to charge twice per day. I do wonder what kind of lap time I could put down as stock at Laguna, though!

 

[StealthP3D]

Perhaps the Roadster will feature (a) newer, very expensive, higher energy density batteries that only a sticker price of $200K+ can support thus providing the extended range without actually weighing 2,000 pounds; and (b) clever, variable aero stuff that will create no additional drag at normal speeds, but will swing into action at speeds appropriate for a race course thereby providing downforce when necessary with little or no penalty for everyday driving,

I would expect both of these and more for the projected price of this monster. Let's face it, this is approaching Porsche GT2 RS price territory and that is a high performance bar to exceed.

The LR Model P3D does not drive like a car weighing 4100 lbs. This is likely due to the very rigid chassis and the low center of gravity. I expect the Roadster II to drive like a lighter car for the same reasons. And when comparing specifications between the Roadster II and other Supercars, remember, the Roadster is the only one that doesn't increase weight when filling the "tank" up. On the track this is an advantage because the suspension can be set up for one weight, not a range of weights like a gasoline supercar. And if that gas tank is not placed right in the middle, the front/back weight distribution changes as the fuel is consumed. That matters when driving at the limit.

A Porsche GT2 RS holds 23.7 gallons so at 6.25 lbs/gal you need to add 148 lbs. to its weight. I expect the Roadster II to weigh more than the Porche with a full tank by quite a bit but it's extra horsepower and instant torque will more than make up for the additional weight. The Roadster II is going to be embarrassing a lot of supercars costing over a million dollars.

 

[StealthP3D]

Yeah this is my main concern. If I'm going to pay $250 and call in the favor from my wife to do a HPDE, I want to actually drive the track. Right now I get to do 5-7x 20m sessions in my Miata. My local tracks are Laguna Seca and Thunderhill. The nearest supercharger to Laguna is in Salinas, which is like 20-30m away, so I'd probably miss at least one session going out there. So if I had to go out there twice in a day, I'm missing half the track day.

I dunno, for now I think it's kind of impractical to track my Model 3, especially since it's standard range and I'd probably have to charge twice per day. I do wonder what kind of lap time I could put down as stock at Laguna, though![/QUOTE]

A P3D costs a lot less than many competitive options. If you can afford to do track driving, you can probably afford two P3D's and a teenage assistant to shuffle them back and forth to the Supercharger! So quit your bellyaching!

Having two identical cars will help with tire and brake management too by increasing flexibility of when you need to replace them. And if you crash one, you will have a spare to finish the day.

 

[IraB]

The LR Model P3D does not drive like a car weighing 4100 lbs. This is likely due to the very rigid chassis and the low center of gravity.

I have owned and driven sports and sporty cars weighing anywhere from 3,200 pounds to 3,800 pounds prior to acquiring my Model 3 Performance. While the steady state cornering of the Model 3 is fairly impressive, and of course the instantaneous acceleration is exciting, the dynamic response and overall feeling of the Model 3 is that of a heavy car.

The Model 3 replaced my Audi RS3. Those 2 cars have amazingly similar performance in terms of acceleration, braking, and steady state cornering. However, they feel completely different. The RS3, despite weighing almost 3,600 pounds feels much lighter and more "tossable" than the Tesla.

This is not a criticism as such, just an observation of the differences. I agree with one of the (I think) UK reviews that said the Model 3 Performance feels like a heavy car pretending to be a lighter car. It is fun to drive, but it does not have the light and nimble feel of a car that weighs 500-700 pounds less.

Again, this is not necessarily a limitation as evidenced by the Model 3 beating the much lighter BMW M3 at the track. Similarly, the relatively heavy Nissan GT-R and Chevy Camaro Z28 or ZL-1 (all around 3,800+ pounds) perform amazingly well on track. But none of them feel like a 2,800 pound Lotus ;-).

As for the Roadster, only time will tell if it has the "feel" of a real super car like the Porsche RS2, or if it comes in for the same criticism as the NIssan GT-R in that it feels "artificial" and like a video game rather than a sports car.

 

[Triplett]

Or so you say.

 

[moridin2002]

That'll be quite a trick with 200kWh of battery. The Model 3 battery density is roughly what the Model S was, I think? About 210Wh/kg. That'd make it roughly 950kg, or 2100lb for the battery pack alone! You're talking 1400lb for the three drive units + "glider". With a frame capable of supporting that 2100lb (plus occupants).

If the battery is significantly lighter than that it will involve battery tech advancement that'll have repercussions reverberating far past that car, and the track capability for the Roadster it implies.

Cells might not be that much better between S and 3, but the Model 3 did gain some on total pack density due to better packaging and more efficient use of materials. Off the top of my head, Model S is ~140Wh/kg at the pack level and the Model 3 is ~150Wh/kg. My guess is that the pack will be smaller than 200kWh despite what the presentation from 2017 says... unless its a power density issue for the pack. Just as a check, Model 3 AWD does 310 miles with ~78kWh. On the Performance, the pack is putting out ~350kW at peak (not including losses). Double the pack size and it should be able to do ~700kW peak (or better). New NCA chemistry (minus Cobalt + Maxwell dry coating process) could improve cell level density a bit too.

 

[usofrob]

.... But none of them feel like a 2,800 pound Lotus ;-)....

I agree with your post. I just need to point out that the Lotus Elise and derivatives are closer to 1800 pounds. I believe the stated wet weight is less than 2000 pounds for the NA versions. The newer ones with the V6's are obviously more, but it's still quite amazing how light they are considering the alternatives are all over 3000 pounds.

Do you think Geely can work with Lotus to make a light weight short range Electric Elise? (Although, I realize, as has been discussed above, the short range would make it not applicable to the track.) I feel like it's a trade off with electric vehicles, you can have lighter weight and more fun, or more weight and the ability to have long term but less fun. I wonder if the SR+ feels more fun than the LR Model 3. Anyone driven both that can compare?

To a previous point, I also think it'd be nice to do the corner weight balancing and suspension geometry without having to worry about how full your gas tank is.

 

[SammichLover]

Do you think Geely can work with Lotus to make a light weight short range Electric Elise?

We already got that a decade ago.

I know, the frame is very different. To support the very different drivetrain, AKA a BEV one.

The rest of the vehicle, too. IIRC part overlap between the Roadster and the Elise was under 10%? Still, it sort of what an Elise + BEV would be like. Another take on what it'd be like is what MPP did with that Lotus Evora. Combined Model S drive units with Volt battery modules. Range is relatively limited, because of how much room they had to stuff battery packs in, but the low glider body weight + S motors + high discharge C of the Volt modules makes for a very quick car.

 

[brianman]

If you can afford to do track driving, you can probably afford two P3D's and a teenage assistant to shuffle them back and forth to the Supercharger! So quit your bellyaching!

Having two identical cars will help with tire and brake management too by increasing flexibility of when you need to replace them. And if you crash one, you will have a spare to finish the day.

I have considered the two car thing in my "what if I was retired, had more money and land" daydreams.