Toronto people. Do you regret having a single charger or is it sufficient?

[Jaff]

Trouty, are there many Chademo charge stations in P.Q.?

We have very few here in Ontario,,,nevertheless, as we plan to use our vehicle to drive (as we have done with our current and past Teslas) "without restrictions", we will still get the Chademo adapters for our car...you only have to use it once (in a pinch) for it to pay off...glad to hear the price has been reduced from the original $1,000...

 

[PoweredByRain]

Trouty, are there many Chademo charge stations in P.Q.?

We have very few here in Ontario,,,nevertheless, as we plan to use our vehicle to drive (as we have done with our current and past Teslas) "without restrictions", we will still get the Chademo adapters for our car...you only have to use it once (in a pinch) for it to pay off...glad to hear the price has been reduced from the original $1,000...

CHAdeMO chargers in B.C. are $.35/kWh.

No thanks.

 

[KenN]

Trouty, are there many Chademo charge stations in P.Q.?.

- Go to plugshare.com
- select "chademo" on the bottom left of the page to filter out all other stations.
- scroll the map to Quebec.

There are 10, 8 of which are either in Montreal or on the Montreal/QC highway corridor.

- - - Updated - - -

CHAdeMO chargers in B.C. are $.35/kWh.

Great strategy ... pretty much guaranteeing they won't be used by charging 4x the residential power rate. And these stations are actually owned by BC Hydro!

 

[Canuck]

CHAdeMO chargers in B.C. are $.35/kWh.

No thanks.

Really? I have the CHAdeMO port on my Leaf but haven't used it yet. However, I thought if I went to Langley Events Centre or Surrey Museum there would be no charge for those CHAdeMO chargers. Are you certain there's a fee for using them?

 

[KenN]

I know that when BC Hydro installed the first few chademo stations, they were free for "a trial period during the pilot program", as they said. I think that started almost two years ago, so it's no surprise if the trial period has expired recently.

 

[PoweredByRain]

Really? [..] Are you certain there's a fee for using them?

Yes. Really.


Dear Greenlots user,

Beginning July 21, 2014 some DC Fast Charging (DCFC) stations in British Columbia, Canada will begin a pilot-pricing program. After consultation, the DCFC hosts and EV drivers have agreed that a fair rate of charge will be $0.35/kWh. This rate is well below the equivalent cost with gas (assuming $1.40/litre).

The DCFC Pilot Program is part of the Clean Energy Vehicle Program (launched in May 2012) designed to provide British Columbians with more affordable clean transportation options. By March 31, 2016, there will be a total of 30 DCFC stations added to BC’s charging network.
This will help encourage EV adoption and reduce range anxiety of EV drivers.

Although most charging will be done at home, DC fast charging ensures drivers can efficiently top up when they need to away from home and on longer trips.

Adding a small fee for DC fast charging ensures:

• DCFC stations are well utilized (drivers will have an incentive to unplug when they have met their charging needs);
• Charging data is collected for analysis and incorporated into future planning decisions;
• DCFC users are knowledgeable about the decreasing charge rate of batteries. This means drivers won’t stay plugged into a fast charge station long after the “fast” part of the charge has finished; and
• A sustainable business model for current & future DCFC site hosts.

[..]

Best Regards,
Greenlots Customer Support

 

[mnx]

Yes. Really.


Dear Greenlots user,

Beginning July 21, 2014 some DC Fast Charging (DCFC) stations in British Columbia, Canada will begin a pilot-pricing program. After consultation, the DCFC hosts and EV drivers have agreed that a fair rate of charge will be $0.35/kWh. This rate is well below the equivalent cost with gas (assuming $1.40/litre).

The DCFC Pilot Program is part of the Clean Energy Vehicle Program (launched in May 2012) designed to provide British Columbians with more affordable clean transportation options. By March 31, 2016, there will be a total of 30 DCFC stations added to BC’s charging network.
This will help encourage EV adoption and reduce range anxiety of EV drivers.

Although most charging will be done at home, DC fast charging ensures drivers can efficiently top up when they need to away from home and on longer trips.

Adding a small fee for DC fast charging ensures:

• DCFC stations are well utilized (drivers will have an incentive to unplug when they have met their charging needs);
• Charging data is collected for analysis and incorporated into future planning decisions;
• DCFC users are knowledgeable about the decreasing charge rate of batteries. This means drivers won’t stay plugged into a fast charge station long after the “fast” part of the charge has finished; and
• A sustainable business model for current & future DCFC site hosts.

[..]

Best Regards,
Greenlots Customer Support

Assuming $1.40/L That probably means it costs more to charge at one of those CHAdeMO's than driving an ICE sedan...

 

[PoweredByRain]

Assuming $1.40/L That probably means it costs more to charge at one of those CHAdeMO's than driving an ICE sedan...

To be fair, gasoline was $1.40/L here at the time of the email.

If you average 200 Wh/km, that's 5 km per kWh, or 5 km for 35 cents. 7 cents per km. With gasoline at $1/L and assuming about 10 L/100 km for a similar sized ICE car, that's 100 km for $10, or 10 cents per km. Still more for the gasoline car, but not by much. At $1.40/L and the same assumptions it would be 14 cents per km, versus 7. Versus 2 if you charge at home.

 

[Jaff]

Agree, but, if in a pinch though, ...

CHAdeMO chargers in B.C. are $.35/kWh.

No thanks.

 

[PoweredByRain]

Agree, but, if in a pinch though, ...

Sure, but are you going to spend $450 US to buy an adapter to keep in the car just in case?

I will wait for Superchargers. 99% of my use of the car is local anyway.

 

[Jaff]

Absolutely!...I am guessing that you will no be retiring in the next few years...hence, will not either the same amount or travel in the same locations as me...

 

[SmartElectric]

CHAdeMO chargers in B.C. are $.35/kWh. No thanks.

I have no problem with that price.

Logic:

1. Rough estimate of $50K to deploy a CHAdeMO charger.
2. Guess usage of 3 hours per day (extremely generous estimate) at 50kW = 150kWh per day of usage.
3. Retail electricity costs $0.15. Income above expenses is $.20/kWh. (35-15) or $30/day.

It would take 4.5 years to pay back the original $50K install cost on an extremely busy location.

Frankly, that is not a reasonable investment for anyone, as the unit likely will be obsolete or broken after 3 years let alone 4.5 years.



Tesla Supercharger cost included with price of vehicle is currently the only sustaining model for DC quick charge that I can see at the moment.


Owners in Canada have paid the price already for access to a very small number of DC charge points. The cost if amortized across the entire Canadian ownership is likely $50/kWh given the small number of charge locations available, and the thousands of cars sold here. That cost will drop as more locations roll out.

My point : Today, a statement like "$.35/kWh is too much" from a Tesla Model S owner seems strange to me.

 

[PoweredByRain]

My point : Today, a statement like "$.35/kWh is too much" from a Tesla Model S owner seems strange to me.

I'm not saying that it's unreasonable for them to charge 35 cents per kWh to try to cover costs. What I'm saying is that it makes no sense to pay 35 cents per kWh when other public chargers are free, and charging at home is 7 or 11 cents per kWh. I can drive to a destination past two CHAdeMO chargers, and return, then charge at home. For longer trips I will be relying on Superchargers. I see no point, personally, in having a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S.

What is the public policy objective here? If DCFC is supposed to be a standalone profitable business then why is the government involved at all? If the idea is to encourage EV use as an alternative to ICEs, then why make it pretty much uncompetitive to drive the EV? Driving a LEAF long distance using CHAdeMO chargers is not a great "user experience" - it's basically drive for one hour (or less), charge for half an hour. Make it an out-of-pocket expense in the same neighbourhood as buying gasoline and the question that arises in most people's minds, I think, is: why bother?

 

[Doug_G]

I'm not saying that it's unreasonable for them to charge 35 cents per kWh to try to cover costs. What I'm saying is that it makes no sense to pay 35 cents per kWh when other public chargers are free, and charging at home is 7 or 11 cents per kWh.

There is a business case for it, IMHO. When I'm in my home town I don't need any public infrastructure. But when I'm traveling, charging is critical. If I have a choice between 6-18 hours charging at a public J1772, versus paying $30 to charge in a couple of hours... I'm down for it. Probably would save me a night in a hotel, which is a heck of a lot more expensive.

 

[PoweredByRain]

There is a business case for it, IMHO. When I'm in my home town I don't need any public infrastructure. But when I'm traveling, charging is critical. If I have a choice between 6-18 hours charging at a public J1772, versus paying $30 to charge in a couple of hours... I'm down for it. Probably would save me a night in a hotel, which is a heck of a lot more expensive.

Right, but I don't expect there to be many situations where there's a CHAdeMO charging network and no Supercharger network. Maybe that might happen across the prairies.... maybe. I doubt it, though, because who is going to install CHAdeMO or CCS every 100 km vs a Supercharger every 200 - 300 km? There just aren't any CHAdeMO/CCS cars on the horizon which have the sort of range required to be a comfortable long-distance car. Give it three years or so and I think Tesla will have the Trans-Canada covered.

I don't think there's a business case for it, certainly not if the chargers continue to be on the order of $50K each.

 

[Doug_G]

Right, but I don't expect there to be many situations where there's a CHAdeMO charging network and no Supercharger network.

So far Tesla has only promised the Windsor to Quebec City 401/40 corridor, plus Barrie. There's nothing going to the East coast and they haven't made any promises of doing it.

There are also plenty of locations away from these routes where fast charging would be appreciated. I'd use a Chademo in Peterborough for sure.

Montreal is not well covered to date. Two stalls at the store (not yet operational of course). There are actually Chademo chargers being deployed around Quebec. They will no doubt be useful.

I don't think there's a business case for it, certainly not if the chargers continue to be on the order of $50K each.

I expect the prices will come down over time... installation costs are another issue. Definitely higher for Level III.

 

[wayner]

The When I'm in my home town I don't need any public infrastructure. But when I'm traveling, charging is critical.

You make a good point - we don't need the superchargers in major cities as much, we need them about 300km outside of cities like Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. Who is going to use the charger in Barrie, other than someone on their way home who can't make the final 80 km to TO. Chargers in Huntsville, Collingwood, Minden, etc would be more useful for the cottage and skiing crowd.

 

[PoweredByRain]

So far Tesla has only promised the Windsor to Quebec City 401/40 corridor, plus Barrie. There's nothing going to the East coast and they haven't made any promises of doing it.

Has anyone made any promises of doing it with CHAdeMO/CCS chargers, though?

If not, then the discussion is completely hypothetical. As I say, I doubt any private business is going to try to do it, at least not until the battery capacity in cars such as the LEAF dramatically increases. It seems to me to be far too expensive to install enough quick chargers to enable a really long distance route. And anyone with a 100 km range battery (you're lucky to even get that much with a LEAF in the winter!) is unlikely to even consider regularly driving hundreds of kilometres with a 2:1 driving:charging ratio.

Update: I looked up what Sun Country Highway says. "Kent Rathwell, the president of Sun Country Highway, further estimates that in 24–36 months, it will be possible for Canadians to travel anywhere on much faster Level 3 DC chargers."

24-36 months. Even the proponents are not saying it's going to happen any time soon.

Sun Country Highway Announces Massive Infrastructure Rollout - Sun Country Highway

 

[Doug_G]

I dunno, 24-36 months sounds as much like "soon" as the Supercharger rollout. My Model S had to wait 24 months for its first Level III charge.

In any case, I don't need to travel cross-country. What I need is flexible and convenient driving around Ontario and Quebec, plus Northern US States. If Chademo helps fill in the Supercharger network it will be useful.

That said, I'd personally prefer the SAE plugs. I bet Tesla could whip out an SAE adapter fairly quickly, since it isn't nearly as bizarre a protocol as Chademo.

 

[PoweredByRain]

I dunno, 24-36 months sounds as much like "soon" as the Supercharger rollout.

I will simply point out that Tesla introduced the first Supercharger 27 months ago. They have gone from a handful of Superchargers at the start of 2013, to about 60 at the start of 2014, to 336 at the start of 2015. Fit a curve through that.