TOU-C cost difference, seems pretty small?

[h2ofun]

So, what am I missing. I have been reading all these threads about the cost difference of peak vs non peak and because it is so large, using batteries during peak can save a bunch of money?

So, I just looked at the PGE TOU-C costs, and I sure am not seeing that big of difference, especially in the winter

E-TOU-CTOTAL RATES

Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh)

SummerTotal Usage Peak $0.41409 Off-Peak $0.35065

WinterTotal Usage Peak $0.31700 Off-Peak $0.29967

So, do I have bad data?

 

[SaveOurPlanet]

I am still waiting for my solar roof install but I already know E-TOU is a bad deal for me personally, but EV2-A is a big deal with $0.17 off peak from midnight to 3:00pm. I am on Tier rate now and the only plan that will save me money is the EV2-A plan now with my Model S and in the future with the solar roof and PW.

 

[NorCalSlrUser]

This is correct. But ... there are also the Non-by-passable charges, which will add something like $0.03 to a round trip, e.g. even if you generate at peak and use at peak, you still have to pay something like $.0.03.

For EV2-A there is a huge difference between peak and non-peak. However the peak is very late in the day, so it does not help much.

Apparently E6 was very good for time shifting, but they are no longer offering it.

Besides, rates change every few years.

 

[jjrandorin]

I am not in PGE territory but I doubt most people with batteries pick that plan. Thats certainly not what I have read here in all the threads. No one talks about "tou-C" they talk about the EV plans, because the off peak is low, to facilitate the charging of an EV (you must have an EV or battery storage to be on those plans).

So, TL ; DR, the information you have about that plan is correct, but the "bad data" you have is the choice of plan itself.

EDIT: Since I am not in PGE territory, I will leave it to others to discuss why they might choose one plan over another. I just know that if you can shift your usage out of peak (and never pay the 47 cents) thats what people are talking about, as then the rate is effectively off peak only.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Your numbers are a bit off, but relatively speaking the difference with E-TOU-C isn't that large between peak and off-peak. The peak time is usually when you are using the most electricity and also when the sun is setting/down so have a battery powering the house load helps out, but not massively.

Check out this thread.
PG&E E-TOU-C vs E-TOU-D with NEM 2.0 and Powerwalls

 

[h2ofun]

I am not in PGE territory but I doubt most people with batteries pick that plan. Thats certainly not what I have read here in all the threads. No one talks about "tou-C" they talk about the EV plans, because the off peak is low, to facilitate the charging of an EV (you must have an EV or battery storage to be on those plans).

So, TL ; DR, the information you have about that plan is correct, but the "bad data" you have is the choice of plan itself.

EDIT: Since I am not in PGE territory, I will leave it to others to discuss why they might choose one plan over another. I just know that if you can shift your usage out of peak (and never pay the 47 cents) thats what people are talking about, as then the rate is effectively off peak only.

View attachment 610137

One does not always have to have the EV plan to have batteries. Some say they have been forced, but others imply they have not.

 

[BrettS]

One does not always have to have the EV plan to have batteries. Some say they have been forced, but others imply they have not.

@jjrandorin said that you need to have batteries (or an EV) to pick the EV plan. Not that you need to have the EV plan if you have batteries.

However, that said, the point is that for people with batteries the EV plan makes much more sense because you can use the batteries to avoid paying the expensive peak rates and only pay the much less expensive off peak rates. That’s why you don’t see people with batteries on the TOU-C plan that you were originally asking about. They would wind up paying more with that plan.

 

[jjrandorin]

@jjrandorin said that you need to have batteries (or an EV) to pick the EV plan. Not that you need to have the EV plan if you have batteries.

However, that said, the point is that for people with batteries the EV plan makes much more sense because you can use the batteries to avoid paying the expensive peak rates and only pay the much less expensive off peak rates. That’s why you don’t see people with batteries on the TOU-C plan that you were originally asking about. They would wind up paying more with that plan.

Yeah, thats what I ment, thanks.

All of this is academic thou as @h2ofun has made it clear in several different posts that he has no interest at all in purchasing powerwalls and would only have them if given to him free, so there is no "ROI" that he needs to worry about.

 

[h2ofun]

Yeah, thats what I ment, thanks.

All of this is academic thou as @h2ofun has made it clear in several different posts that he has no interest at all in purchasing powerwalls and would only have them if given to him free, so there is no "ROI" that he needs to worry about.

yep

 

[RKCRLR]

The main problem with the EV rate schedule (at least for me) is that I have electric heat. So I have to balance keeping enough reserve for power outages vs using more electricity during peak periods.

 

[h2ofun]

The main problem with the EV rate schedule (at least for me) is that I have electric heat. So I have to balance keeping enough reserve for power outages vs using more electricity during peak periods.

Great point. I just converted to 100% electric heat. So my large home is now 99% electric. Unless I had a large number of batteries, just not going to cut it when it is cold. I have no electric car(s).

So I just continue to look at data, still learning. I just thought on my existing tou-c rates, there was a big difference between times and cost, which I can see is not the case Will make the wife happy that we can basically ignore the time use issue at the moment.

Still have not heard back from PGE on my resubmitted sgip app, been a month, so no idea what will happen. But, seems even if approved, taking maybe at least a year to get something is, well, .. Not planning my house energy usage assuming any batteries.

 

[miimura]

If you don't have Powerwalls and have a relatively large solar system relative to your total usage, a rate plan like TOU-C may make sense because you don't get hit with high rates when you are not generating.

For people with solar and an EV, the EV-A rate used to allow people to generate at Part-Peak and Peak rates and have high consumption during Off-Peak for EV charging. This would allow a smaller solar system to zero out your bill than you can with the rate plans available today.

 

[cwied]

One other easily overlooked aspect of E-TOU-C is that the baseline credit essentially turns it into a tiered plan. During the winter, the tiers make much more of a difference than the TOU.

 

[h2ofun]

If you don't have Powerwalls and have a relatively large solar system relative to your total usage, a rate plan like TOU-C may make sense because you don't get hit with high rates when you are not generating.

For people with solar and an EV, the EV-A rate used to allow people to generate at Part-Peak and Peak rates and have high consumption during Off-Peak for EV charging. This would allow a smaller solar system to zero out your bill than you can with the rate plans available today.

Makes sense. I have a 14kw solar setup, 43 panels. Not sure if you consider this large? Am hoping at true up to have a zero bill. Have a 500 buck credit after 4 months. I can see these cold months will be using more than I produce. But in the warmer months, I produce way more than I use. If after a year I end up with a decent size credit, I will change my energy use and make it cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. Right now wearing long underwear and have the house like at 60 degrees.

Not sure how a EV plan would impact me. But, if I only get 2 batteries, which would be one for the house and one for the garage, would not be a lot of power to use. But, unless I GET batteries, not putting anymore focus on them. Just trying to see how I use the tou-c to minimize energy cost. Now that I have looked at the peak vs non peak costs, seems I really do not need to care? This is the feedback I am asking from folks if I am reading this wrong.

 

[h2ofun]

One other easily overlooked aspect of E-TOU-C is that the baseline credit essentially turns it into a tiered plan. During the winter, the tiers make much more of a difference than the TOU.

Interesting point. I was just looking at baseline costs. Did not look at use over this, which I hope with my solar vs usage never get into again.

 

[miimura]

Interesting point. I was just looking at baseline costs. Did not look at use over this, which I hope with my solar vs usage never get into again.

Even with solar, it's very easy to go over baseline in the Winter. This makes your credits smaller in the Summer (under Baseline rate credits) and higher in the Winter (over Baseline rate charges).

 

[jboy210]

So, what am I missing. I have been reading all these threads about the cost difference of peak vs non peak and because it is so large, using batteries during peak can save a bunch of money?

So, I just looked at the PGE TOU-C costs, and I sure am not seeing that big of difference, especially in the winter

E-TOU-CTOTAL RATES

Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh)

SummerTotal Usage Peak $0.41409 Off-Peak $0.35065

WinterTotal Usage Peak $0.31700 Off-Peak $0.29967

So, do I have bad data?

Where did you get the rate numbers? I am on a TOU plan and they used to show on our bill, but now they are not listed.

I am wondering if this has something to do with just getting PTO under NEM2.

 

[miimura]

Where did you get the rate numbers? I am on a TOU plan and they used to show on our bill, but now they are not listed.

I am wondering if this has something to do with just getting PTO under NEM2.

Powerwall billing does not appear on the Blue bill. You have to dig into your account to get to the black and white bill. You may also receive a hard copy of the black and white bill in the mail.

 

[h2ofun]

Even with solar, it's very easy to go over baseline in the Winter. This makes your credits smaller in the Summer (under Baseline rate credits) and higher in the Winter (over Baseline rate charges).

Yep, which is why my house is 57 degrees now, just having fun playing the game. Now when family comes over, up goes the temp.

 

[h2ofun]

Where did you get the rate numbers? I am on a TOU plan and they used to show on our bill, but now they are not listed.

I am wondering if this has something to do with just getting PTO under NEM2.

IF PGE, I just googled.

https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU-C.pdf

Tariffs

https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV2 (Sch).pdf