TOU in Florida w FPL

[davidwpb]

Is anyone using the residential TOU metering in Florida with FPL? Does it also allow Net Metering? I did some research on FPL website this morning in regards to my system below and it seems like I could save with TOU, but savings may not pay off if I can't net meter. The website indicates you can switch back to regular from TOU if you didn't see a savings, but you can go back and forth. 1 year commitment once you leave if you want back on TOU.

I am getting a 7.5kW Tesla solar plus 3 Powerwalls in Florida (signed contract last night) and plan to add another 6.6kW in the next 12 months since Tesla will not install on my barn, which has the best solar production. I ran a spreadsheet to track my potential Powerwall charge level and power from the grid hourly for a few days in to see what it looks like. I noticed that I would be pulling from the grid mostly at night to charge my car, so I decided to look into commercial metering and to my surprise, there appears to be a residential TOU metering option.

 

[Dan123]

Is anyone using the residential TOU metering in Florida with FPL? Does it also allow Net Metering? I did some research on FPL website this morning in regards to my system below and it seems like I could save with TOU, but savings may not pay off if I can't net meter. The website indicates you can switch back to regular from TOU if you didn't see a savings, but you can go back and forth. 1 year commitment once you leave if you want back on TOU.

I am getting a 7.5kW Tesla solar plus 3 Powerwalls in Florida (signed contract last night) and plan to add another 6.6kW in the next 12 months since Tesla will not install on my barn, which has the best solar production. I ran a spreadsheet to track my potential Powerwall charge level and power from the grid hourly for a few days in to see what it looks like. I noticed that I would be pulling from the grid mostly at night to charge my car, so I decided to look into commercial metering and to my surprise, there appears to be a residential TOU metering option.

No, its either Net Meter or TOU. You have to pick one, and with a Powerwall you are required to get Net Meter.

 

[TheDom]

No, its either Net Meter or TOU. You have to pick one, and with a Powerwall you are required to get Net Meter.

Incorrect, you can absolutely do both. I've gotten that confirmed by two folks at FPL: one who handles net metering calls (his name was Richard I think), and the other who handles time of use calls. Richard said that of roughly 16,000 net metering customers they have only 20 who are also doing TOU.

For TOU, basically 70% off peak is your breakeven point, and the more you can shift off peak the better you do. For net metering with TOU they count on peak credits against future on peak usage, and off peak credits against future off peak usage. With no load shifting using a battery, my spreadsheet work on a 4kW system based on PVWatts data showed a South facing array made about $33 less per year on TOU vs regular billing, East facing was worse by $48, and West facing was the best but still worse by about $4. For our specific use case though, we will be saving roughly $40-50/mo on TOU, so it still works out in our favor. With 3 PW though, you should be able to do almost all off peak pretty easily.

 

[Dan123]

I called FPL. Both representatives on the phone was very not knowledgable. The first one tried to convince me that FPL does not offer TOU rates for residential customers. The second one told me that they do offer TOU with Net Metering, but couldn't tell me anything about the rates. She said that someone else would call me to explain.

In the rate table it says -4.885 for off-peak. What does this mean? Why is the number negative? Do I get a credit for using power during off-peak periods?

 

[miimura]

I called FPL. Both representatives on the phone was very not knowledgable. The first one tried to convince me that FPL does not offer TOU rates for residential customers. The second one told me that they do offer TOU with Net Metering, but couldn't tell me anything about the rates. She said that someone else would call me to explain.

In the rate table it says -4.885 for off-peak. What does this mean? Why is the number negative? Do I get a credit for using power during off-peak periods?

The Note #3 says:
"Except for customer charge, all rates and charges under Rate Schedule RS-1 shall apply to RTR-1. RTR-1 Base Energy and Fuel Charges and Credits applicable to on- and off-peak usage are in addition to the RS-1 charges."
This means that the per kWh values in the table are additive, as applicable. I put it in a spreadsheet to make it more clear and add it up. I will ignore the over 1,000 kWh because I assume that anyone with solar will have a system sized to keep the net total below that level in a month. I also assume they're not double charging the Storm/Conservation/Capacity/Environmental components with the TOU Rider.

So, the total Peak rate should be $0.20637 per kWh and the Off-Peak rate should be $0.03902 per kWh as long as your total net usage for the month is below 1,000 kWh. The Summer Peak is M-F Noon-9:00pm the Winter Peak is M-F 6-10am and 6-10pm. Depending on your A/C load and solar system size, you may be able to have negative Summer Peak kWh which will get you 5:1 kWh for Off-Peak car charging.

 

[Dan123]

The Note #3 says:
"Except for customer charge, all rates and charges under Rate Schedule RS-1 shall apply to RTR-1. RTR-1 Base Energy and Fuel Charges and Credits applicable to on- and off-peak usage are in addition to the RS-1 charges."
This means that the per kWh values in the table are additive, as applicable. I put it in a spreadsheet to make it more clear and add it up. I will ignore the over 1,000 kWh because I assume that anyone with solar will have a system sized to keep the net total below that level in a month. I also assume they're not double charging the Storm/Conservation/Capacity/Environmental components with the TOU Rider.

View attachment 428620

So, the total Peak rate should be $0.20637 per kWh and the Off-Peak rate should be $0.03902 per kWh as long as your total net usage for the month is below 1,000 kWh. The Summer Peak is M-F Noon-9:00pm the Winter Peak is M-F 6-10am and 6-10pm. Depending on your A/C load and solar system size, you may be able to have negative Summer Peak kWh which will get you 5:1 kWh for Off-Peak car charging.

Thank you, this is very helpful. Now, the summer peak is very manageable with solar and powerwall. The winter peak, however, is during low sun hours.

I presume if I bank summer peak net metering credits, I can use them in the winter to offset winter peak usage? The problem, I think, will be January and February, when I don't have any credits, and the on-peak usage may be high if it is cold.

And I presume that if I have any surplus peak credits, I am not going to get paid for it, so at the end of the day I can't exchange peak credits for off-peak usage on a 5:1 basis.

 

[miimura]

The FPL Net Metering Rule says that you will be paid for surplus generation (kWh) according to the COG-1 Tariff. However, that tariff only prescribes the calculation method, not an actual reimbursement rate. I would expect an extremely low rate, probably on the order of 2c/kWh. Presumably, any credit at the end of the year due to TOU differentials, will not be paid. In any case, if you use the Peak credits during Off-Peak periods, you should be able to take full advantage of the 5:1 differential.

 

[TheDom]

I called FPL. Both representatives on the phone was very not knowledgable. The first one tried to convince me that FPL does not offer TOU rates for residential customers. The second one told me that they do offer TOU with Net Metering, but couldn't tell me anything about the rates. She said that someone else would call me to explain.

Yeah, I had to really work to get the first person I talked to convinced that TOU was a thing and that I needed to talk to a supervisor to get the ball rolling on the switch over. The person who called me back after a few days though was very knowledgeable and helpful.

Miimura's numbers match what I came up with. The rate sheet is definitely on the arcane side, but not terrible if you throw it in a spreadsheet. The net metering guy I spoke to said the end of year payoff was something like 2-3 cents per kWh.

 

[Dan123]

Yeah, I had to really work to get the first person I talked to convinced that TOU was a thing and that I needed to talk to a supervisor to get the ball rolling on the switch over. The person who called me back after a few days though was very knowledgeable and helpful.

Miimura's numbers match what I came up with. The rate sheet is definitely on the arcane side, but not terrible if you throw it in a spreadsheet. The net metering guy I spoke to said the end of year payoff was something like 2-3 cents per kWh.

So lets say in July I have a surplus in the peak hours, and a deficit in the off-peak hours. Will the on-peak suprlus be applied against the off-peak deficit, and only the net number will be carried forward? Will it retain its character as on-peak or off-peak in the next month?

 

[TheDom]

So lets say in July I have a surplus in the peak hours, and a deficit in the off-peak hours. Will the on-peak suprlus be applied against the off-peak deficit, and only the net number will be carried forward? Will it retain its character as on-peak or off-peak in the next month?

Honestly I don't know for sure, but I got the feeling that peak credits only apply to peak draws from the grid, and off peak credits to off peak draw. For regular net metering the credits accumulate all year, and they pay you out for any excess at the end of the year. I would assume with TOU and net metering you get a separate bucket of credits for both peak and off peak that carry through the rest of the year. I've got to call the TOU guy on Monday to gripe that it's been a month since someone was supposed to be out to swap my meter out to go on the TOU rate, so I'll ask him then and see if I can't get clarification.

 

[Dan123]

Honestly I don't know for sure, but I got the feeling that peak credits only apply to peak draws from the grid, and off peak credits to off peak draw. For regular net metering the credits accumulate all year, and they pay you out for any excess at the end of the year. I would assume with TOU and net metering you get a separate bucket of credits for both peak and off peak that carry through the rest of the year. I've got to call the TOU guy on Monday to gripe that it's been a month since someone was supposed to be out to swap my meter out to go on the TOU rate, so I'll ask him then and see if I can't get clarification.

How are you planning to deal with 6-10pm peak time in the winter?

 

[TheDom]

How are you planning to deal with 6-10pm peak time in the winter?

Short answer: Just charging the cars and running laundry during off peak times.

Longer answer: We never run the heat, and I think the coldest it got last winter was something like 68F in the house. If it gets warm enough to warrant running the AC we will just pre-cool the house during the off peak middle of the day and it won't have to run much after 6 with the sun going down. We also drive a lot because we live a little outside of town, so we average 30kWh/day between our two EVs.

I went through and put all of our usage from our Dec-Jan bill last year into a spreadsheet where we weren't doing anything to shift things to off peak. I went through and adjusted all of our major car charging events to off peak, and we still hit 82% off peak for that month. I think with us consciously avoiding usage during those peaks we should be good. For that month we averaged 15kWh/day peak, vs in May-June bill we hit a little over 28kWh/day peak. Our AC and water heater are both 12yrs old, so once they get replaced with more efficient ones we should see a good drop in both peak and overall usage.

For our case a Powerwall with solar discounted by the 30% tax credit would definitely be in the ballpark of paying for itself, so between that and the backup benefits I'm strongly considering one.

 

[davidwpb]

Thanks for all the feedback, very helpful! Time to update this post. I increased my system after contract (had to sign a new contract) but long before install to 9kW and 3 powerwalls. Install started last week, but will not complete until December due to poor planning (they didn't have the right safety equipment). Anyways, I have now re-engaged myself to figure out how I can minimize my power bill and optimize TOU. I wish I had thought of this before all the electrical work was done. I was doing the calcs all wrong and agree with above posts that it is $0.04 (prior to taxes and surcharges of 15%+) for off peak and $$0.20 for peak. This changes my situation but hopefully for the better. I think i need to get my car charger off the main panel now and hooked directly to the meter before the gateway. Not so easy now that everything is installed. I tried several times to see if they would add a charger to my system but I was told its a different dept (home charging) and that permit was already approved, so too late to change or it would delay my install. So now my question changes to how do I go about accomplishing this without too much cost. I can't do it myself since I can't shut off power between meter and Gateway. I think I need a separate panel and possibly a service wire size upgrade since I can technically do more than 200 amps everything was probably designed for. The reason I think I need to do this is that if I charge my car at night when power is off-peak, but I'm draining the powerwalls to do so, I'm losing the power i could be using during on peak. I need to run some numbers through my spreadsheet, but I think this change will put me almost entirely on off-peak power and if it doesn't, I would just need to add a few panels until it does. Below are photos of my install and plans, from left to right, meter box, gateway, production panel, inverter. My main panel with 200amp disconnect panel is in the garage behind the meter box.

 

[Dan123]

The reason I think I need to do this is that if I charge my car at night when power is off-peak, but I'm draining the powerwalls to do so, I'm losing the power i could be using during on peak. I need to run some numbers through my spreadsheet, but I think this change will put me almost entirely on off-peak power and if it doesn't, I would just need to add a few panels until it does. Below are photos of my install and plans, from left to right, meter box, gateway, production panel, inverter. My main panel with 200amp disconnect panel is in the garage behind the meter box.

I don't think you need to rewire anything. At night, during off-peak hours, the power for your car will be coming from the grid. The powerwall will not be discharged during off-peak hours.

 

[miimura]

I don't think you need to rewire anything. At night, during off-peak hours, the power for your car will be coming from the grid. The powerwall will not be discharged during off-peak hours.

This is true as long as you use Time Based Control. If you use Self-Powered mode, the battery will drain at any time there is demand in excess of solar generation, until it reaches the Reserve level.

 

[davidwpb]

I don't think you need to rewire anything. At night, during off-peak hours, the power for your car will be coming from the grid. The powerwall will not be discharged during off-peak hours.

I agree with miimura, I'm not going to be able to use Time Based Control. I read another post today of someone getting their power company to release Telsa to allow Time Based Control, but you risk jeopardizing your ITC savings ($7,000 in my case).

 

[miimura]

I agree with miimura, I'm not going to be able to use Time Based Control. I read another post today of someone getting their power company to release Telsa to allow Time Based Control, but you risk jeopardizing your ITC savings ($7,000 in my case).

Time Based Control is compatible with the ITC by default. The thing that could be unlocked is grid charging, which is a separate thing.

 

[davidwpb]

I ran some more calcs and I think what I really need is to change the reserve level up while off-peak and drop it during on-peak. I think this would comply with requirements of not charging from grid, I just need to control when it discharges. Anyone tried playing with this. Install is completing Saturday, but it might be a while before I'm grid connected and can play with the Tesla App.

This is likely the Time Based Control that was referred to in above posts, but I'm going to just wait for the app before I dig much further.

 

[cwied]

Yes, before they did time-based control, I used to do my own by setting the reserve on a schedule. Now that there's time-based control, that's not necessary.

Again, you don't have to worry about charging from the grid. Currently there is no way to configure the Powerwalls to charge from the grid in the US with solar.

 

[Dan123]

Does anyone know how the TOU work with FPL?

What I want to know:
1. If you have a peak credit in April (you produced more solar in April than consumed, does the peak credit carries over into May?

2. If you have a peal credit in October, does it carry over as peak credit in November? (the peak hours in October are different from the peak hours in November).


Is there anyone here with TOU and solar who is already getting bills?