TOU in Florida w FPL

[davidwpb]

Does anyone know how the TOU work with FPL?

What I want to know:
1. If you have a peak credit in April (you produced more solar in April than consumed, does the peak credit carries over into May?

2. If you have a peal credit in October, does it carry over as peak credit in November? (the peak hours in October are different from the peak hours in November).


Is there anyone here with TOU and solar who is already getting bills?

I hope to be on it ASAP but it may take a month to get approved to turn solar on and then I'm told I need to request the TOU meter. My understanding is that credit carry over month to month until December and then they are paid out (at lower rate since there will be no taxes on them). The peak rates are the same year round, so I would assume the peak and off-peak credits would carry over as well.

The Catch 22 I have now found with Poweralls and TOU is that increasing solar size beyond a certain point is no longer cost effective because the ROI would take 30 years since I'm not getting power for under $0.05/kWh.

 

[Dan123]

I hope to be on it ASAP but it may take a month to get approved to turn solar on and then I'm told I need to request the TOU meter. My understanding is that credit carry over month to month until December and then they are paid out (at lower rate since there will be no taxes on them). The peak rates are the same year round, so I would assume the peak and off-peak credits would carry over as well.

The Catch 22 I have now found with Poweralls and TOU is that increasing solar size beyond a certain point is no longer cost effective because the ROI would take 30 years since I'm not getting power for under $0.05/kWh.

If the peak credits from summer carry over into winter, then in theory you could take advantage of TOU without the powerwall, and you can have a smaller solar array. You can just position some of the panels facing west, and you will have a lot of credits in the summer, and then use them in the winter month.

 

[FloridaJohn]

If the peak credits from summer carry over into winter, then in theory you could take advantage of TOU without the powerwall, and you can have a smaller solar array. You can just position some of the panels facing west, and you will have a lot of credits in the summer, and then use them in the winter month.

Except they reset everyone on January 1, right in the middle of winter. All your July credits are erased (by paying you some fraction of the credit price), and you start earning new credits at the beginning of the year. You can really only take advantage of the credits in the second half of the year, after you are at peak production. Assuming, of course, that you can't cover all your electric needs in the winter just from your solar.

 

[miimura]

Except they reset everyone on January 1, right in the middle of winter. All your July credits are erased (by paying you some fraction of the credit price), and you start earning new credits at the beginning of the year. You can really only take advantage of the credits in the second half of the year, after you are at peak production. Assuming, of course, that you can't cover all your electric needs in the winter just from your solar.

Over a number of years, it doesn't matter when they reset your credits. Assuming you could be $0 per year, building up a positive balance Jan-Apr, whittling that down to zero at the beginning of July, building the credit balance July-Sep, then whittling that back to zero at the end of the year, will work out the same. However, due to changes in your system that cause a new true-up you could be caught out with a large balance to be paid or a credit balance that gets wiped out. That happened to me when I got Powerwalls.

 

[Dan123]

Over a number of years, it doesn't matter when they reset your credits. Assuming you could be $0 per year, building up a positive balance Jan-Apr, whittling that down to zero at the beginning of July, building the credit balance July-Sep, then whittling that back to zero at the end of the year, will work out the same. However, due to changes in your system that cause a new true-up you could be caught out with a large balance to be paid or a credit balance that gets wiped out. That happened to me when I got Powerwalls.

Yes, but it is difficult to have a surplus of PEAK credits in January, February, March because the peak hours in those months are 6am through 10am and 6pm through 10pm. Only 7am through 10am have sunlight.

 

[davidwpb]

I didn't realize the app would give you so many options on what to do with solar and how to power house. I think I can avoid peak charges with my system (tracked the first week so far and was able to use no peak power by using solar from the weekend to get me through the peak periods during the week). If I add some panels, I think I might be able to get peak credits while paying for off-peak power. Net I would still be using more then I generate but by building up peak credits and buying at off-peak rates, I could justify the cost of those extra panels since the price difference is $0.20/kWh (even if I paid after tax for off-peak and they paid out credits pre-tax, I think the savings is still $0.15/kWh. Problem is I'm not certain how much they pay for the credits and if they truly keep peak and off-peak separate at the end of the year and pay different rates on each. Anyone know how peak vs off-peak credits are handled? I'm planning to call FPL next week if no one answers on this thread.

 

[winfield100]

Database of State Incentives for Renewables & Efficiency® - DSIRE
List of federal and state tax incentives

 

[davidwpb]

I didn't realize the app would give you so many options on what to do with solar and how to power house. I think I can avoid peak charges with my system (tracked the first week so far and was able to use no peak power by using solar from the weekend to get me through the peak periods during the week). If I add some panels, I think I might be able to get peak credits while paying for off-peak power. Net I would still be using more then I generate but by building up peak credits and buying at off-peak rates, I could justify the cost of those extra panels since the price difference is $0.20/kWh (even if I paid after tax for off-peak and they paid out credits pre-tax, I think the savings is still $0.15/kWh. Problem is I'm not certain how much they pay for the credits and if they truly keep peak and off-peak separate at the end of the year and pay different rates on each. Anyone know how peak vs off-peak credits are handled? I'm planning to call FPL next week if no one answers on this thread.

My neighbor has an oversized solar system and is on regular net-meter (not a TOU meter), he got $0.02/kWh for over supply at year end a week ago. That's less than the fuel-only charge. My coworker who used to work for FPL explained it as an incremental cost credit, like they only give you what they would pay for an additional kWh. If that is the case for peak-off peak, unless they do an exchange of peak for off peak, the added solar will not be worth it to do rate arbitrage.

I called FPL today . The first person said they don't have time of use meters for residential, but transferred me me to business dept. Business said they would have someone call me in one week and it could take 3 months to get the TOU meter. Then I asked about how peak and off-peak credits are handled and they transferred me to energy conservation dept. She did not know how peak credits are handled so I will ask wqhen I get my TOU call next week. Not looking promising.

 

[Dan123]

My neighbor has an oversized solar system and is on regular net-meter (not a TOU meter), he got $0.02/kWh for over supply at year end a week ago. That's less than the fuel-only charge. My coworker who used to work for FPL explained it as an incremental cost credit, like they only give you what they would pay for an additional kWh. If that is the case for peak-off peak, unless they do an exchange of peak for off peak, the added solar will not be worth it to do rate arbitrage.

I called FPL today . The first person said they don't have time of use meters for residential, but transferred me me to business dept. Business said they would have someone call me in one week and it could take 3 months to get the TOU meter. Then I asked about how peak and off-peak credits are handled and they transferred me to energy conservation dept. She did not know how peak credits are handled so I will ask wqhen I get my TOU call next week. Not looking promising.

That's precisely my FPL experience. At the end of the day, on one was able to explain how peak and off-peak credits are handled.

 

[davidwpb]

I called FPL. Both representatives on the phone was very not knowledgable. The first one tried to convince me that FPL does not offer TOU rates for residential customers. The second one told me that they do offer TOU with Net Metering, but couldn't tell me anything about the rates. She said that someone else would call me to explain.

In the rate table it says -4.885 for off-peak. What does this mean? Why is the number negative? Do I get a credit for using power during off-peak periods?

I spoke with someone from FPL today about TOU meter. They said they will get it installed by next meter reading, which is in 20 days. She said they will do the TOU overlay for the days I was on TOU. Since I'm not on net metering yet, I didn't mention being in the application process in order to not slow down my TOU meter process, but I asked hypothetically if I were to make that change in the future, but she really wasn't able to get into the credits as it becomes more complicated, but she did say that everyone that added TOU to net metering came out cheaper after TOU. There was some info shared I thought would be useful to others thinking of going TOU:
1. Electric bill still calculated like a regular residential bill with different rates for over and under 1,000 kWh. After those calculations, they make adjustments for peak and off-peak. It seems like the peak/off-peak adjustments don't matter if usage is over or under 1,000kW.
2. The first full month on TOU will be calculated and will only be applied if there is a savings. The next month the change will be applied regardless. Sounded like a courtesy period to change your mind if the hit was worse than expected.
3. She said it is an actual meter replacement (she mentioned the meter has to be calibrated correctly).
4. I asked if there would be another meter change from TOU to TOU with net metering and she said it would.
5. She said that you will lose the energy dashboard (hourly/daily usage tracking) on FPL website when you go TOU with net metering. TOU only meter will still let you view hourly consumption. Not a big deal for me since I have the Tesla app that tracks the same and more, it was nice to be able to compare, but since I have already compared and confirmed they match, I don't see an issue with losing that feature.
6. I assume net metering credits will not be peak or off-peak because of the way she explained the bill being calculated. It would just be a reduction in number of kWh billed on the next month with no regard to whether they were peak or off-peak and your new month peak and off-peak adjustments would be made regardless of the credits, but on actual net usage for that month.

In summary, I think you need to stay away from peak every month or at least 70% off-peak as someone calculated previously on this thread. I think that will be near impossible for most families without Powerwalls, since you would have to shift your whole family away from using peak power and in winter you don't have peak power overlapping peak production hours.

 

[Dan123]

6. I assume net metering credits will not be peak or off-peak because of the way she explained the bill being calculated. It would just be a reduction in number of kWh billed on the next month with no regard to whether they were peak or off-peak and your new month peak and off-peak adjustments would be made regardless of the credits, but on actual net usage for that month.

Ok, but if you have a credit in May, and in June you use more than you produce, is that credit applied against off-peak hours only?

 

[thevaibhav]

Off topic Warning !

I live in Palm Beach, FL and have 11.64KW Solar and have 2 Powewall installed (But not yet enabled)

Question 1 ) powerwalls were installed in early November but i am still awaiting FPL to disconnect service so that i can have the power connected to the PW. whats the time i should expect this to take ?

Question 2) i applied for TOU in October, after a long chat with a rep, was told someone will come out soon to replace the meter, but yet to hear from them.. Would either of you know how much time it takes ?

Thanks,

 

[davidwpb]

Ok, but if you have a credit in May, and in June you use more than you produce, is that credit applied against off-peak hours only?

I couldn't get a straight answer, but furthering on my assumption from previous post, if they do look at kWh separately from peak/off-peak then you could end up with both a kWh credit and cost credit in May. Below is my THEORY:
1. May over produced 100 kWH peak and pulled 40kWh off-peak from the grid. Bill for electricity would be $0 and 60kWh credit for May. TOU rider would be $0 for peak usage and $2.06 (plus taxes?) credit for off-peak applied against base rate.
2. June pulled 20kW peak and 20kW off-peak. Bill for electricity would be $0 and 20kWh credit remaining from May. TOU rider would be $2.32 (plus taxes) for peak usage and $1.03 (plus taxes) credit for off-peak for a net added cost.

We could run several examples, but if my logic is right, I think the results are going to be similar and you want to stay away from any net peak usage every month, because producing extra peak only saves you base rate on the following bill.

 

[davidwpb]

Off topic Warning !

I live in Palm Beach, FL and have 11.64KW Solar and have 2 Powewall installed (But not yet enabled)

Question 1 ) powerwalls were installed in early November but i am still awaiting FPL to disconnect service so that i can have the power connected to the PW. whats the time i should expect this to take ?

Question 2) i applied for TOU in October, after a long chat with a rep, was told someone will come out soon to replace the meter, but yet to hear from them.. Would either of you know how much time it takes ?

Thanks,

1. My Powerwalls were installed 11/7 by the Orlando office. FPL disconnected and reconnected service to the house that day so that the install could be completed. No idea why they wouldn't have done the install the same way with you, unless they couldn't get FPL to turn off service. FPL guy that came gave the Tesla installer a hard time about another Tesla install in the area, maybe FPL is trying to get something resolved between Tesla and FPL prior to continuing to disconnect and reconnect power. Solar had an issue and had to be installed on 11/23 by the Tampa office, but not commissioned until 12/6. This is when they got everything running and showed me how to use the app. Then turned everything off and said to wait for notification we can start to use.

I'm curious about your setup.
Did you have solar before and just add Powerwalls or did Tesla do the entire system in November?
Are you doing whole house backup with gateway between meter and main panel breaker like mine?

My system failed final inspection and I was told by Tesla last week there is a permitting issue they don't expect to get resolved this year regarding the way the calculations are done. Maybe the same thing is holding you up. I would reach out to your rep and ask for some answers.

I would be happy to discuss more if you want to direct message me your contact info. Maybe sharing your plans would be helpful, the actual permit plans showing wiring and a photo or two of your powerwall/panel/meter setup.

2. I only know that they said less than 20 days for regular TOU meter (not TOU plus net metering). I would call back to ask.

 

[thevaibhav]

1. My Powerwalls were installed 11/7 by the Orlando office. FPL disconnected and reconnected service to the house that day so that the install could be completed. No idea why they wouldn't have done the install the same way with you, unless they couldn't get FPL to turn off service. FPL guy that came gave the Tesla installer a hard time about another Tesla install in the area, maybe FPL is trying to get something resolved between Tesla and FPL prior to continuing to disconnect and reconnect power. Solar had an issue and had to be installed on 11/23 by the Tampa office, but not commissioned until 12/6. This is when they got everything running and showed me how to use the app. Then turned everything off and said to wait for notification we can start to use.

I'm curious about your setup.
Did you have solar before and just add Powerwalls or did Tesla do the entire system in November?
Are you doing whole house backup with gateway between meter and main panel breaker like mine?

My system failed final inspection and I was told by Tesla last week there is a permitting issue they don't expect to get resolved this year regarding the way the calculations are done. Maybe the same thing is holding you up. I would reach out to your rep and ask for some answers.

I would be happy to discuss more if you want to direct message me your contact info. Maybe sharing your plans would be helpful, the actual permit plans showing wiring and a photo or two of your powerwall/panel/meter setup.

2. I only know that they said less than 20 days for regular TOU meter (not TOU plus net metering). I would call back to ask.

My solar setup is from November 2017.. have 37 panasonic panels generating 11.65KHW.. hooked to Solar edge HD wave 7600 inverter.
I signed the contract with Tesla to install 2 powerwall in August 2019.. they were installed on 11th November 2019.

During sales, i was told it will be a whole house backup -tesla car charger(HP Wall unit). during the install, i dont think they created a separation for that though.

 

[davidwpb]

My solar setup is from November 2017.. have 37 panasonic panels generating 11.65KHW.. hooked to Solar edge HD wave 7600 inverter.
I signed the contract with Tesla to install 2 powerwall in August 2019.. they were installed on 11th November 2019.

During sales, i was told it will be a whole house backup -tesla car charger(HP Wall unit). during the install, i dont think they created a separation for that though.

I tried adding on car charger after contract and close to install date and got the run around since everything was already designed, permit approved and about to be installed. After the delay I asked about adding panels and again got pushed off that engineering is backed up and it would delay my install until next year. It sounds like they physically installed the powerwalls but likely did none of the electrical work. I would say that most of the work is not done since most of the install was the electrical conduits, panels, etc. If that's the case, they likely just installed the Powerwalls since they were already there and didnt want them to get damamged. they did that at my house while they were waiting for FPL to show up and disconnect power. They said they could only go so far until that was done. I wonder since your install was done right after mine, if my theory is correct that Tesla is having some issue with FPL and permitting with powerwalls and load calculations and its likely holding up everyone installed after after us. Did you get billed yet? I did loan plus cash. The loan paid Tesla 80% of total loan amount, but Tesla has not billed me the the amount I was supposed to pay directly before they showed up, the last I asked they said just wait for an invoice to pay.

I wouldn't be in a rush for your TOU meter until your Powerwalls are connected and operational. You may not be saving money until that happens. Also, it sounds like you are getting the TOU w net metering so that might be a specialty person that needs to come out, since according to a post earlier in this thread, there are only 20 people that have that setup.

 

[thevaibhav]

I tried adding on car charger after contract and close to install date and got the run around since everything was already designed, permit approved and about to be installed. After the delay I asked about adding panels and again got pushed off that engineering is backed up and it would delay my install until next year. It sounds like they physically installed the powerwalls but likely did none of the electrical work. I would say that most of the work is not done since most of the install was the electrical conduits, panels, etc. If that's the case, they likely just installed the Powerwalls since they were already there and didnt want them to get damamged. they did that at my house while they were waiting for FPL to show up and disconnect power. They said they could only go so far until that was done. I wonder since your install was done right after mine, if my theory is correct that Tesla is having some issue with FPL and permitting with powerwalls and load calculations and its likely holding up everyone installed after after us. Did you get billed yet? I did loan plus cash. The loan paid Tesla 80% of total loan amount, but Tesla has not billed me the the amount I was supposed to pay directly before they showed up, the last I asked they said just wait for an invoice to pay.

I wouldn't be in a rush for your TOU meter until your Powerwalls are connected and operational. You may not be saving money until that happens. Also, it sounds like you are getting the TOU w net metering so that might be a specialty person that needs to come out, since according to a post earlier in this thread, there are only 20 people that have that setup.

I just got off the phone with FPL, seems they installed my TOU meter on December 8th and forgot to inform me !!

Tesla, did the powerwall install, did 2 extra breaker box (Something similar to a breaker box) and did the wiring from the powewall to these boxes, they did not connect it to the FPL meter or my main box.. if that makes sense..

 

[davidwpb]

I just got off the phone with FPL, seems they installed my TOU meter on December 8th and forgot to inform me !!

Tesla, did the powerwall install, did 2 extra breaker box (Something similar to a breaker box) and did the wiring from the powewall to these boxes, they did not connect it to the FPL meter or my main box.. if that makes sense..

Awesome. Sounds like we might have a bill to review in a month or two to see which theory is correct on how they calculate it. I spoke with thevaibhav and it seems like it might take a few months to get an accurate reading due to solar overproduction vs consumption. Also, definitely seems like something is up with FPL since he can't get them to do a simple disconnect and reconnect. Hopefully they are just busy for everyone trying to get solar before the credit reduces and its not something that will have a more significant impact.

 

[TheDom]

Off topic Warning !

Question 2) i applied for TOU in October, after a long chat with a rep, was told someone will come out soon to replace the meter, but yet to hear from them.. Would either of you know how much time it takes ?

Thanks,

Ours took a good 2-3months.

 

[thevaibhav]

So i have a disconnect date from FPL set of Dec 31st.. the first month bills was off and i will need to speak to someone at FPL about it

My billing period ends on the 10th of the month.. they changed my meter on the 9th.. so for 9th and 10th the billing is off..

I have extra units credits, that they paid me for as of December 08th and then charged me for units consumed.. for te past 2 years my bill has been $9 which is the minimum to keep a connection.. this time after a credit of $20 or so, i have a bill of $11.. which means for 2 days i have a bill of 22 or so, which does not make sense, yet

What i know, i have a TOU and a bi direction meter. What i dont know, how the billing will accurately work..