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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan

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On an energy basis, 1 gal of gas is about equal to 1 kg of hydrogen (33.3 kWh or 120 Mjoule). Taking into account the efficiency, 1 gal of gas burned in an ICE is good for only about 7 kWh of locomotion, which costs about $1 as electricity. I guess that would be equal to a half kg of hydrogen, whatever that really costs...
 
I'm thinking the real reason Toyota has gone with "fool-cell" technology is to keep their franchised dealer network happy. Had they gone down the EV route, aftersales service and maintenance would be minimal and that's where the dealers make most of their money.

As for the Mirai, it looks to me like they've fallen into the trap of making it look like a futuristic fuel cell car. A $57k Camry/Corolla hybrid with the current ugly Lexus front grill design. It's being billed as a "gamechanger". It's not even close. You still have to go somewhere to fuel it, hand over $$ at point of sale, a 300 mile range and a highly complex process to convert hydrogen into electric, all just to power an electric motor. Just wait till it leaks hydrogen, not to mention what happens when it catches fire!
 
Its looks make me associate to this kind of fish:

23684-m.jpg


Monkfish in English I think?
 
i thought it was an ICE that burned hydrogen. So basically, it's an electric car that you can't charge at home. I'm still not seeing the advantage.

In simple terms, a Fuel Cell Vehicle (or FCV), is a vehicle that is driven by an electric motor powered by the electricity generated by the chemical reaction between onboard hydrogen and oxygen pulled in from outside. The only byproduct of this reaction is water (H2O… 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. Remember your high school chemistry?), which is released as vapor through the tailpipe. (http://www.treehugger.com/cars/toyotas-new-fuel-cell-vehicle-what-it-how-it-works-and-how-it-drives.html)
 
Ya know the style of the vehicle really has nothing to do with the powertrain. They could have made the FCV look like a Prius and it would probably sell better, but alas they hit it with an ugly stick and will have to live with the (low sales) consequences. Man it's so Fugly, I have a plug-in Prius and there's no way I'd buy that.
 
In simple terms, a Fuel Cell Vehicle (or FCV), is a vehicle that is driven by an electric motor powered by the electricity generated by the chemical reaction between onboard hydrogen and oxygen pulled in from outside. The only byproduct of this reaction is water (H2O… 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. Remember your high school chemistry?), which is released as vapor through the tailpipe.


Why is it that these magazines (even Treehugger!!), are so willing to parrot the Toyota line about no emissions other than water??

Remember your high school chemistry, indeed! CHHHH + HHO + HHO gives CO2 and 8 H. Where do they think this stuff comes from? No brains, no thought about getting off fossil fuels, no comment about making greenhouse gasses. DUM! Sheesh! Does Toyota pay for these articles?? Obviously....
 
Why is it that these magazines (even Treehugger!!), are so willing to parrot the Toyota line about no emissions other than water??

Remember your high school chemistry, indeed! CHHHH + HHO + HHO gives CO2 and 8 H. Where do they think this stuff comes from? No brains, no thought about getting off fossil fuels, no comment about making greenhouse gasses. DUM! Sheesh! Does Toyota pay for these articles?? Obviously....

In a world with abundant energy you can create hydrogen using water and electricity. Unfortunately we don't have abundant energy (yet). According to Kurzweil this should take about 20 years. Maybe when we don't have to worry about producing energy anymore hydrogen will start to make sense?
 
In a world with abundant energy you can create hydrogen using water and electricity. Unfortunately we don't have abundant energy (yet). According to Kurzweil this should take about 20 years. Maybe when we don't have to worry about producing energy anymore hydrogen will start to make sense?

Right. Abundant energy. Maybe you aren't old enough to remember the spin on Nuclear when they first planned to start making electricity: "So cheap it's almost free". Didn't happen, did it?

My experience is that if someone can make a profit from it, they will. Electricity will never be free. People will not split water for hydrogen until they run out of cheap (comparatively) natural gas. At the present, it costs 4 times as much to make hydrogen from water, so it isn't going to happen in my lifetime.

It is far cheaper and more profitable to tell lies and rumors and obfuscation via advertising to a gullible public. So that's what's going to happen.
 
Wait, so Toyota has made an electric car that you can't charge at home or at your destination? No thanks.

One of the biggest surprise benefits of owning a BEV I've found is being freed from having to go out of my way to get fuel every week.

At 10 minutes to go fill up x 48 weeks a year I commute, that's 480 minutes, or 8 hours I'm saving every year with a BEV over a gas or hydrogen car. That more than pays back for the longer time it takes to supercharge when driving on vacation. Plus, when I'm working I can least spare the time. When I'm on vacation I don't mind spending a little extra time taking a break drving, because I'm on vacation!

Toyota has this completely backwards and it just shows they've never lived with a BEV.
 
Ya know the style of the vehicle really has nothing to do with the powertrain. They could have made the FCV look like a Prius and it would probably sell better, but alas they hit it with an ugly stick and will have to live with the (low sales) consequences. Man it's so Fugly, I have a plug-in Prius and there's no way I'd buy that.
That's so that you know it's green. All efficient vehicles by big manufacturers start out life ugly, just so that you can show what sacrifices you are willing to make to save the planet.

I often wonder if it's so that they can prove that nobody wants them and go back to making gas guzzling SUVs where their profit margins are higher....
 
In a world with abundant energy you can create hydrogen using water and electricity. Unfortunately we don't have abundant energy (yet). According to Kurzweil this should take about 20 years. Maybe when we don't have to worry about producing energy anymore hydrogen will start to make sense?

Then we can take that cheap and abundant energy and put it into batteries, with much greater ease and efficiency than moving Hydrogen around.
 
How many years is the 10,000 psi tank good for before it needs to be inspected? Propane tanks have to be inspected and recertified every so many years.

Take a Toyota employee and crash test the car lightly; just enough to rupture the tank and see how well they do. I want to see crash test videos of the tank being broken open.

Is everyone really going to be happy paying double or more the price of gasoline for some hydrogen?

Someone needs to dig up the current process of making hydrogen from natural gas and all the co2 it releases. Not to mention how tremendously energy intensive the process is.

Any performance numbers from this hydrogen powered Corolla?
 
I am glad we have this thread. Please let's stay objective about the car so we can study it. I dearly hope it doesn't take off... the car is not a green solution (if "green" means lowering the amount of carbon put back into the atmosphere, which I think it does). Perhaps it will sell via some other reasons that "trick" the consumer.

The car isn't particularly impressive from a performance standpoint so people won't be buying it for that, will they? Torquey at low revs for example?

Is the Fuel Cell Engine any quieter than a gasoline engine? Will the Mirai be inately quiet by virtue of its design? I do not think so.

From an interior luxury standpoint, does the car really compete with anything else at the $57,000+ level? Let's say, Mercedes E-Class which starts at $51,800.

Is the crash safety particularly better than cars of the same price point? Hard to say, but it has a lot of internal machinery which can't help crumple zones.

It looks a bit better than a Honda Fit type of car. But it does not look as good as any other car in the $57,000 bracket.

Are Toyota giving the fuel away for free? (Well, of course, they are right now, but we know it's not going to continue)

What is the carbon footprint of the Mirai? Does its design show simplicity in manufacturing and is the fuel delivery process carbon free, or heading towards that?

So sure, the common response will be "it is this expensive 'cos it has new tech in it, and the people who'll buy it initially are early adopters who know all about the tech and that represents a value for them, so the car doesn't have to compete on the other usual factors - same as Tesla Model S!!!"

Fact is, the Tesla Model S has looks that would be perfectly respectable on a gasoline car. But it also has levels of interior space, interior and exterior noise levels, handling, crash safety, drivetrain smoothness and performance, and UI software/systems management that are either very keen or outright groundbreaking, and in combination in the same car - definitely warranting a $70,000 starting price. And the fuel is free, as long as you don't mind waiting for Tesla to install Superchargers as fast as they possibly can (and have done about 275 in just over 2 years). The carbon footprint (including manufacturing) is zero - after you drive it for 10,000 miles and are getting your power from renewables. So the Tesla Model S actually does compete with other cars on various mundane things and matches or beats them - and carries out its raison d'etre of being a green car.

I think the Mirai is destined to be Toyota's "proof" that hydrogen cars are not the way to go... they wanted to go the complete distance in order to let it be transparent to all onlookers that buyers do not want FCV... they want BEVs instead. Toyota has the financial pockets to withstand this episode and emerge as a powerful player in the EV business, but Tesla, BMW et. al may leave them at the standards-setting station along with several other manufacturers who are simply sitting on their hands waiting for EVs to go away.
 
Dribbling water onto freezing roads means... ICE without the ICE!!!

So I looked for video reviews, and found this one which was published on November 19th -

2016 Toyota Mirai fuel-cell car first-drive - YouTube

Slashgear? More like SlashCar. They slash it to pieces.

I thought this technology would emit steam, or something hard to see. It is a continuous DRIBBLE OF WATER out of a hole in the bottom of the car. (That isn't my terminology... even Slashgear uses the word "dribble") If this is really the car's emission, it is a serious problem.

1) it will be the butt of jokes for dribbling water everywhere, not to mention: causing puddles when standing still w/ engine idling, passengers step out into puddles of water no matter where they drive, turning dusty parking lots into muddy parking lots, etc. etc.

2) imagine a freeway where the weather is dry, but it's below freezing. If cars are on the road and water is coming out of them, the water will freeze, and turn to a layer of ice on the road. Cars will create ice during freezing weather. Who said this was sensible, desirable, or legal?
 
Looked at the video... I'll admit that the car is slightly less ugly than the picture posted up thread (It's still ugly just not as much as I thought)
They say the controls are a mess, it has no trunk space, isn't very powerful, drives like a prius (that's hardly a selling feature!) "slippery .29 drag coefficient" is significantly less slippery than a Tesla. and unknown cost of fuel, and only available at ... good luck...