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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan
- Thread starter ivog
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Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I believe calculations have shown that FCVs will expel about twice the amount of H2O as a petrol car. But at lower temperature, so it may be an issue.
Again, I present a translated answer from the FAQ at hydrogen.no:
Q:Since the emissions from a hydrogen car is only water, will there then be lots of water in the streets as hydrogen cars become common?
A: No. Remember that there is also a lot of water in the exhaust from regular petrol and diesel cars. When running 10 kilometers with a fuel cell hydrogen car, it will emit about 1 liter of water, about twice as much as a petrol or diesel car. If a hydrogen car is idling, there will be a constant slow dipping of water on the pavement, but not to the extent that a large pond will form.
Again, I present a translated answer from the FAQ at hydrogen.no:
Q:Since the emissions from a hydrogen car is only water, will there then be lots of water in the streets as hydrogen cars become common?
A: No. Remember that there is also a lot of water in the exhaust from regular petrol and diesel cars. When running 10 kilometers with a fuel cell hydrogen car, it will emit about 1 liter of water, about twice as much as a petrol or diesel car. If a hydrogen car is idling, there will be a constant slow dipping of water on the pavement, but not to the extent that a large pond will form.
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I agree with your concerns. I wonder how much water actually gets dribbled during typical operation. I have the impression that the Mirai has a small tank which saves the water emitted by the fuel cell stack and the contents can be released by pressing a button in the car. I wonder if the heavy stream of water shown on the video was the result of pushing this water release button or just the normal overflow dribble from typical operating conditions.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
If anyone is sceptical to the Mirai, please look no further. Toyta is equally serious about electrified personal transport. I present to you the Toyota i-ROAD:
Toyota Global Site | TOYOTA DESIGN | TOYOTA i-ROAD
Toyota i-ROAD Concept for 2013 Geneva Auto Show Car and Driver
50 km range, top speed 45 km/h. Lemme guess, 5 kWh battery?
Toyota Global Site | TOYOTA DESIGN | TOYOTA i-ROAD
Toyota i-ROAD Concept for 2013 Geneva Auto Show Car and Driver
50 km range, top speed 45 km/h. Lemme guess, 5 kWh battery?
60 miles per kg of hydrogen. 1 kg of H2 should make 9 kg (=9 liters) of H2O. so that's like a half a cup of water per mile. That doesn't seem crazy. I wonder if an A/C creates that much condensation per minute.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
+1 Apart from the Pontiac Aztec and the Fiat Multipla, this has got to be the ugliest car I have ever had to lay my eyes on. Triple yuck!
Plus, as many others have pointed out, why make an EV heavier/more complicated/expensive by adding hydrogen fuel tanks, the fuel cell etc.?
And as for sales, who would buy a car for which there is less refuelling infrastructure than for a BEV? Hell, there are more Tesla Superchargers in Germany for example than there are hydrogen filling stations!
Your numbers look correct to me. From a little googling, it looks like a typical car air conditioner is about 24,000 btu per hour or "2 tons" in HVAC lingo. A 2 ton A/C might be expected to condense anywhere from 0.5 to 2.0 gallons of water per hour, depending on humidity and temperature differentials. Maybe a half cup of water every 2 minutes? Of course, the compressor isn't usually running all of the time so the actual condensation rate would usually be lower. Maybe a quarter or half of that rate? Anyway, it would be less than the fuel cell output.
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M67v
I just work here
Pretty cool, but not even close to Tesla.
Not to mention infrastructure is worse.
Why doesn't Toyota make an electric car that has similar range to the Model S 60, or better yet the 85, or maybe even more. Be somebody.
Not to mention infrastructure is worse.
Why doesn't Toyota make an electric car that has similar range to the Model S 60, or better yet the 85, or maybe even more. Be somebody.
Recharge Your Nissan LEAF Via Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Sedan
It seems the Mirai has a CHAdeMO power outlet in the trunk, allowing direct access to the DC power generated by the Fuel Cell.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
That is a most interesting fact and intriguing design choice, if it should come to be a part of the production model. My thinking is this is another very direct way of Toyta trying to point out that EVs are so prone to range anxiety and running out of battery along the side of the road that the much more reliable FCVs that can refuelled quickly and easily must be able to come to the rescue. Like an able bigger brother coming to bail out his poor little sibling. That's the story they want to create. Remeber that marketing nowadays is all about creating narratives and pushing public opinion in your own direction.
I'll have to see about creating a small hydrogen tank in the frunk of my S so I can drive around with a couple of kg's of H2 to bail out FCVs
Nah, it's all about convincing potential customers in earthquake-prone California and Japan that not only do you get a car, you also get a power generator that can power your house for several days in the event of a disaster. It is still just speculation that it would be possible to charge a Leaf via the CHAdeMO output.
I can see that having this would be a selling point at least in Japan, given the still fairly recent tsunami in the Sendai-region, and blackouts becoming common after all the nuclear power plants were shut down. Maybe they'll sell a few hundred because of this feature. That's not an enormous figure, but it is actually a very significant percentage of the amount of Mirai they will sell.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
But how on earth would you power your house with DC current from a Chademo outlet???
Well, you need an inverter, of course. But the inverter you need has exactly the same requirements as a typical string solar inverter (eccept you need to isolate the house first and disable the anti-islanding protection,) so it is off the shelf technology and the direct DC connection to the battery gives you access to far more power than the house will need.
Walter
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Well there's a solution looking for a problem IMO. But hey whatever the consumer wants, right?
Well there's a solution looking for a problem IMO. But hey whatever the consumer wants, right?
Depends on how much you trust your grid. It offers a better solution than a portable generator for similar or smaller amounts of money - at least while the car is home. So if it is worth buying a good generator for your house, this would be worth it.
No need for a H-tank. Just instal a small HHO device and create hydrogen on the fly using the energy from your battery.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Nissan has offered a "Leaf-to-home" system in Japan for several years now.
Personally, I'd love such an option with my Model S. We don't often lose power where I live, not often enough to justify a whole house nat gas generator, but when we do it's a pain to go outside in the freezing cold or rain and start up the stinky, noisy gas generator that needs refueling every 8 hours. And good luck finding a gas station nearby with power.
My Model S could power my house for several days. No hydrocarbons burned. I wouldn't even need to leave the comfort of my garage to hook it up.
Personally, I'd love such an option with my Model S. We don't often lose power where I live, not often enough to justify a whole house nat gas generator, but when we do it's a pain to go outside in the freezing cold or rain and start up the stinky, noisy gas generator that needs refueling every 8 hours. And good luck finding a gas station nearby with power.
My Model S could power my house for several days. No hydrocarbons burned. I wouldn't even need to leave the comfort of my garage to hook it up.
GoBlue88
Member
Probably not exactly unbiased, but Evannex has made a Model S. vs. Mirai comparison infographic: Infographic: Model S vs. Mirai | Aftermarket Accessories for Tesla Model S
0-60 in 9.0 seconds. Clearly a "Tesla Killer". :redface:
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0-60 in 9.0 seconds. Clearly a "Tesla Killer". :redface:
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Being a current Lexus owner, this is what really is bugging me about Toyota. One would think they have the talent, know-how, and learnings from the Rav4 EV experience to put out a Lexus BEV that could legitimately compete with the Tesla Model S or get out ahead of upcoming Model III with a lower-priced version. I just don't understand the decision-making here.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
People don't understand water in the air or water coming from a tailpipe.
Someone driving a pickup trick pulled up to my wife to tell her that there was water coming out of the tailpipe on the Prius. As if that meant something was wrong with the car.
How much more stupidity would you have to deal with if you drove a Fuel Cell vehicle that dripped more water than a Prius?
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the water that comes out of the tailpipe is warm (at least on ICE vehicles, I'm assuming this will be the same for fuel cell vehicles), The majority of it will evaporate before hitting the ground in the winter time because the air is dry.
Someone driving a pickup trick pulled up to my wife to tell her that there was water coming out of the tailpipe on the Prius. As if that meant something was wrong with the car.
How much more stupidity would you have to deal with if you drove a Fuel Cell vehicle that dripped more water than a Prius?
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the water that comes out of the tailpipe is warm (at least on ICE vehicles, I'm assuming this will be the same for fuel cell vehicles), The majority of it will evaporate before hitting the ground in the winter time because the air is dry.
MartinAustin
Active Member
You better hope it's warm water... don't forget Toyota and the other proponents of hydrogen cars are proposing that hydrogen cars become the norm, and eventually the only things on the road. Imagine a road on a frozen day where every car is dribbling out warm water.
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Some thoughts about that comparison page.
Electricity is 20% of the cost of equivalent gasoline? To whom? Not me. Let's assume there's 34,020Wh of energy in a gallon of gasoline (per Wikipedia). I pay $0.12 per kWh in Austin... so 34 of those would be $4.08. As we all know the price of regular gasoline is just over $2. A car of the Tesla Model S caliber would almost certainly be using premium gas, but that is still on sale in Austin for as low as $2.69 (and as high as $3.49, yoikes who are they kidding?) $4.08 is a lot more than $2.69, never mind "20% less expensive." Perhaps Evannex are referring to Superchargers.
Hydrogen is twice the cost of gasoline? I'm not going to argue with that assessment. But it better get seriously cheaper if Toyota is to succeed! As we all know, the primary reason the Model S is in such demand is not "because it is green." That isn't enough for most buyers... its other advantages combined make it compelling. The Toyota Mirai has no such other advantages... its only selling point is that it's green - and that is debatable. It actually is disadvantaged in some ways (can you call it a family car? attractive? high performance? inexpensive? long range? lots of cargo space? not really... none of those)
Let's put gasoline back to $3.50 per gallon just for the sake of this argument. If hydrogen was exactly the same price, people would ask themselves "do I want to buy a $57,500 car that is very unremarkable for that price, but... it's debatably green?" That might sell a few cars. Hydrogen will have to be noticeably cheaper for people to consider the Mirai. Then the argument will be "it's expensive for what it is, but I'll make the money back later because hydrogen is so cheap compared to gasoline. And it's got some green to it." Or (if they pack more tanks in) "It's expensive for what it is, but it has enormous range for the fuel I pay for... way more range than gasoline. And it's got some green to it."
But, if hydrogen can't be brought down to the same cost-per-mile of gasoline, or lower - and this is now made all the more difficult due to the falling cost of gasoline - the discussion will be "I'll buy it 'cos I really need a somewhat green vehicle, even though the fuel is bloody expensive and the car is totally unremarkable, especially for $57,500." The Mirai and any other FCEVs may be dead on arrival, even without electric cars.
Toyota must be praying that gasoline goes back up in price before Q4 2015.
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