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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan
- Thread starter ivog
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- Electric Vehicles
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
wraithnot
Model 3 VIN #2942 Model S VIN #5785
There is only one battery swap station at the moment- it's at Harris Ranch across the street from the superchargers. I got an invitation to participate in the pilot program in June and I thought it was open to all Model S owners at this point (with the unfortunate exception of early cars with "A" batteries). Perhaps Tesla forgot to send out invitations to people that got their cars more recently.
Here are the basics:
Only like-for-like battery swaps at the moment due to software limitations (e.g. a 60 kWh car can only swap for another 60 kWh battery and can't get an 85 kWh or 90 kWh battery)
You have to swap batteries twice within a reasonable amount of time- you get your original battery back during the second swap
You have to make an appointment for both the initial swap and the second swap (generally between 9 am and 5 pm any day of the week). The appointment times are approximate due to the realities of road trips.
At least for older cars, the first battery swap you do takes longer because some hardware on the car needs to be updated
A set of two swaps costs $80, although the fee may be waived if either of the swaps takes longer than it should
If everything goes smoothly, the swap takes 3-4 minutes and you get a fully charged battery (96% to 98% charged for the four swaps I've done).
Here is the text of the invitation I got:
We invite you to participate in the pilot of our battery pack swap program for your Model S.
The program, operating at a facility located across the street from the Tesla Superchargers at Harris Ranch, CA, is intended to refine the technology and assess demand for battery pack swap as a charging solution during long distance drives.
We would very much appreciate your feedback during or after any planned trips using battery swap to help us shape the program going forward. In the pilot phase, battery swap is available by appointment and will cost slightly less than a full tank of gasoline for a premium sedan. The pack-swappingprocess takes approximately three minutes and Tesla staff at the station will assist you with your swap.
To make an appointment, please call 1.559.935.1599.
Thank you for helping to advance the world’s transition to sustainable transport!
Tesla Motors
I've read that there hasn't actually been much interest in the battery swaps. Tesla sent out a couple of waves of invites (not sure how many in each) and they got less than 25% response. I think many people find that after they've had their Tesla for a bit, that the charging really isn't an issue. I have no need for a battery swap station, and would rather see Tesla devote the resources for them to building more superchargers. That's not to say there aren't some folks out there who could use them, but I'm doubtful there will be a large enough contingent to make them viable.
bollar
Disgruntled Member
IMO, it's not palatable the way it's setup, with having to make an appointment as well as returning to the same station to swap your battery back. If you didn't have to make an appointment and didn't have to come back to the same station, i can see some utility at remote locations (e.g., my favorite Shamrock, TX Supercharger, or whatever locations chosen for I-10 west of San Antonio (Fort Stockton, Van Horn, etc.) -- places that I'd really prefer to minimize my time at. Unfortunately, the economics don't seem to pencil out, so the sole battery swap station allows Tesla to grab the bonus ZEV credits, without delivering a usable / desirable swap network.
Not true. Tesla no longer receives any credit for battery swapping after a rule change at CARB.
yeah, they are going to have to find an engineering fix for this.
In total, I cannot imagine the masses handling something far more dangerous than petrol.
green1
Active Member
Well be interesting to see the media coverage the first time one of these burns/explodes, should level a rather large area, maybe that will get some people to realise what a horrible idea this is. Unfortunately I bet it will get less press than a tesla battery fire despite the much larger amount of damage it will likely generate.
In fairness, if the PRDs work as designed it should just burn like a massive blowtorch, without exploding or damaging much that isn't right near or above the car. Should still make for very dramatic footage.
Walter
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
This is probably a side effect of hydrogen needing to be precooled to -40C in order to hit those 3 minute refueling speeds. Otherwise it will take more like 15 minutes (for -20C case). Probably will need a heated nozzle (although not sure if one can practically be added).
Hydrogen fire is HOT. It's hot enough to melt steel and it will easily cause burns many meters away just from thermal radiation.
"IF" they work as designed. There are plenty of youtube videos of CNG PRD's that didn't. And that's for a low-pressure high-temperature gas. The first H2 tank PRD that fails in a car accident will seal its fate.
green1
Active Member
PRD requires that the tank is undamaged, and is simply being subjected to increase pressure due to an external heat source. When, not if, a tank is damaged in a collision, the resulting mess will be quite spectacular indeed.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
Though I understand the sentiment, I disagree with the conclusion. I expect hydrogen car fires to get the same level of over exposure as Tesla battery fires have gotten. For one, I expect them to be spectacular, and in today's news world, hydrogen fire spectacular is going to get a lot of coverage.
And a hydrogen explosion, car or station, is going to be ... big coverage. I expect the first explosion to be just about the end of hydrogen fueled vehicles.
Ok, so H2 needs to be compressed, then stored in a supercooled storage system. Of course this will need active cooling systems to maintain the pressure and temperature to store the H2. Basically lots of electricity, maintenance, etc... Apparently H2 is very hard to store and keep from escaping (witness Hindenburg).
How do we get the H2? I watched Fully Charged on YouTube, and there are wind turbines to split water to H2 and O2. Of course you can get it from hydrocarbons, great for the oil industry. But to deplete a natural resource that we all need (water) to survive is really stupid.
So to get H2 to drive we need more electricity to store and we need to deplete a more valuable resource to create (as well as creating a whole new infrastructure). Sorry Toyota, real stupid. Unless we can get the H2 from direct sources (the sun maybe?), this is stupid. Maybe Toyota wants to invest in the infrastructure like Tesla is. All the more power to them if they do.
Thumper
Active Member
I don't see Hydrogen ever working out economically unless some microbe is taught to make it from sewage or something similar. If that happens though, it could become viable pretty fast and actually be a good thing.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
The cost of H2 production isn't remotely the greatest hurdle. It's everything else (at least for vehicles):
1. 700 bar requirement
2. Energy losses from compression, cooling
3. Low Efficiency (compared to BEV)
4. Infrastructure cost
5. Safety
Hydrogen for long term storage is doable. Anytime you need to distribute the hydrogen, or compress past 200 bar, feasibility tanks.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
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