Toyota to show new BEV?

[malcolm]

Surprise! Toyota will bring a battery-powered concept vehicle to NAIAS - AutoblogGreen

 

[vfx]

Surprise! Toyota will bring a battery-powered concept vehicle to NAIAS - AutoblogGreen

This is big. And a salvo over GM's bow.

 

[graham]

This is big. And a salvo over GM's bow.

Yes. Especially after bad-mouthing GM for using li-ion technology for so long, I am very curious as to what they plan to power this with... Looks to be a good show this year!

 

[doug]

Detroit Auto Show: Toyota EV Teaser Image Previews New Exhausting Marketing Campaign - Jalopnik

 

[graham]

From the linked Jalopnik article in doug's post:

According to the WSJ, Toyota plans to unveil a "small battery electric-car concept" at next month's Detroit Auto Show alongside the new Prius. Is this a GEM or GEM Peapod competitor or something more?

So, this is possibly not a highway capable car... which makes it significantly less interesting. I hope they are wrong about that.

 

[DDB]

Yes. Especially after bad-mouthing GM for using li-ion technology for so long, I am very curious as to what they plan to power this with... Looks to be a good show this year!

I should know the answer to this, but I'm have trouble. Now, a BEV could be powered by a hydrogen fuel cell, right? Or am I dead wrong? Anyone?

And I agree, if it's a NEV, I won't bother reading any press releases. Why they don't bring back the RAV-EVs powered by a Li-ion battery is beyond me. Why not?

 

[malcolm]

I should know the answer to this, but I'm have trouble. Now, a BEV could be powered by a hydrogen fuel cell, right? Or am I dead wrong? Anyone?

Yes, although technically that would make it a HFCEV but then such vehicles do include batteries which makes it all a bit confusing. Kinda like a new version of the SHEV vs E-REV naming debate

I also hope they come up with something far better than a NEV

 

[bobw]

Yes. Especially after bad-mouthing GM for using li-ion technology for so long

The battery could be NiMH. That wouldn't be li-ion.

 

[graham]

The battery could be NiMH. That wouldn't be li-ion.

Yes! That is part of what is interesting. NiMH would not give them as competitive a car as Li-ion (most likely) so they have the choice of having a less competitive car, eating their words about Li-ion, or going with a different technology altogether.

 

[Young]

I doubt that Toyota will be using NiMH for the new EV. NiMH usage in EV's are very restricte by the patent holder.

 

[Grin]

And the patent holder is Chevron/Texaco

 

[doug]

I doubt that Toyota will be using NiMH for the new EV. NiMH usage in EV's are very restricte by the patent holder.

I thought that patent was running out in the near future.

 

[GSP]

If you trust Wikipedia:

"A 2001 patent infringement lawsuit brought by ECD Ovonics and Ovonic Battery Company, Inc. against Matsushita, Toyota, and PEVE was settled in July 2004. Settlement terms called for cross-licensing between parties of current and future NiMH-related patents filed through December 31, 2014. The terms did not allow Matushita, Toyota, and PEVE to sell certain NiMH batteries for transportation applications in North America until the second half of 2007, and commercial quantities of certain NiMH batteries in North America until the second half of 2010. Additionally, Ovonic Battery Co. and ECD Ovonics received a $10 million patent license fee, Cobasys received a $20 million patent license fee, $16 million of which was earmarked to reimburse legal expenses, and Cobasys would receive royalties on certain batteries sold by Matushita/PEVE in North America.[34]

Licensing terms were expanded in 2005, with PEVE granted further license to sell NiMH batteries for certain transportation applications in North America, in exchange for royalties paid to Cobasys through 2014.[35]

According to SEC filings, ECD Ovonics and Cobasys hold 125 US patents related to NiMH battery technology. 13 of the patents, considered particularly important, are due to expire by 2014. [36]"

Cobasys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sounds like Toyota could use NiMH if they wait until the second half of 2010 (and probably pay royalties since the patents don't expire until 2014).

My guess would be that they will use a Lithium chemistry however, due to better life, specific energy and potential for cost reduction.

GSP

 

[vfx]

My guess would be that they will use a Lithium chemistry however, due to better life, specific energy and potential for cost reduction.

Although, the RAV 4 is a known technology.

And owners are claiming 100K plus miles on original NiMHs.

 

[Young]

Although, the RAV 4 is a known technology.

And owners are claiming 100K plus miles on original NiMHs.

Mine is over 93k miles, still going strong. Still get over 100 miles per charge.

 

[GSP]

Although, the RAV 4 is a known technology.

And owners are claiming 100K plus miles on original NiMHs.

You're absolutely right.

The RAV4-EV proved that Panasonic's NiMH technology provides a very nice, very practical, highway speed EV, with a "lifetime" battery. As a potential customer, I'd want to spend my money on a battery that was proven to last, and Panasonic's NiMH would be the safest bet.

However, I'm guessing that Toyota will go with Lithium, since it seems to be the "way of the future." It's best to spend you development money on the future.

Toyota probably doesn't see much opportunity for further cost reduction with NiMH. Panasonic already produces NiMH in high volumes, and raw material costs are high. Lithium has low raw material costs, so now's the time to figure out how to reduce the manufacturing expense (assuming they have a safe, "lifetime" design by now).

GSP

 

[TEG]

I like that plug EV logo Toyota came up with.

Perhaps their car will be an electric version of their new iQ?

 

[Joseph]

Toyota most definitely will not be using NiMH if they ever do make EVs.

NiMH batteries will last the liftetime of the vehicle, if you do not charge the car during hot afternoon hours (the heat is terrible for NiMH) and keep the SOC between 20% and 80%.

NiMH goes about half as far as lithium. And if you want to have that great 10+ years and 100k mile lifespan, you can only utilize about 60% of that range. Lithium, on the other hand, can handle much more drastic variations in SOC, only adding to its range capability.

NiMH is larger and heavier b/c of its lower energy density, only adding to its other problem: lower power density. The Rav4 EV accelerates as quickly as (if not slower) than the Smart.

NiMH should've been powering tens of thousands of EVs, ten years ago.

Lithium is available and far better. Given the choice, why would automakers choose a ten year old technology?

Lithium's only downfall in comparison to NiMH is its unknown calendar life. On that front, only time will tell.

 

[TEG]

...Lithium's only downfall in comparison to NiMH is its unknown calendar life. On that front, only time will tell....

Well, for some reason Toyota has stuck with NiMH in all their hybrids to date.
Also, they delayed some plans for Li-Ion saying "safety issues" were of concern to them.

Also, calendar life < 5 years for Li-Ion is not just a minor issue.

 

[Young]

NiMH batteries in RAV4-EV are not that fragile. I do not restrict my SOC. I routinely discharge to 10 to 20% SOC, and charge it to 100% all the time. Mine is at 93k miles and the internal resistance values of the batteries were still 6 mOhm like new when measured a few month ago.

Calendar life of Li-Ion batteries are not really issue if you do not use commodity 18650 cells. LG Chem claims their automotive Li-Ion batteries have calendar life of >15yrs.