Track camber: arms vs coilovers

[destructure00]

Looking at tackling camber for the track this year. I know MPP has front and rear camber arms, so that's my first thought.

But....if I were to spend the $$ on coilovers instead of camber arms, would lowering the car at the track give the same amount of negative camber that I'd get with camber arms?

Basically looking at either doing camber arms OR coilovers (not both), with negative camber being the primary goal, but lowering the car for track use being a secondary benefit from coilovers. Wondering if coilovers would actually accomplish the primary goal.

 

[beastmode13]

Looking at tackling camber for the track this year. I know MPP has front and rear camber arms, so that's my first thought.

But....if I were to spend the $$ on coilovers instead of camber arms, would lowering the car at the track give the same amount of negative camber that I'd get with camber arms?

Basically looking at either doing camber arms OR coilovers (not both), with negative camber being the primary goal, but lowering the car for track use being a secondary benefit from coilovers. Wondering if coilovers would actually accomplish the primary goal.

Lowering the car will increase the rear camber, but not much, will do next to zero in the front. Economical way would be do the front camber arm and rear camber arm. Rear toe arm is nice to have, makes toe adjustment easy compare to the stock eccentric bolt.

 

[destructure00]

Thanks, arms it is. Appreciate the help.

 

[beastmode13]

MPP front camber arm will change how the car handle in corner, improves the front end traction tremendously. I would even say with front camber arm you can skip aftermarket larger rear sway bar. It is also the only arm in the market currently that is design to be adjustable on the fly easily and consistently between track and street. You don’t even need to remove the wheel. Just jack the front end, even one side at a time then swap out the shim from the top. Assuming the frunk is already out. You can tell MPP front camber arm is designed by someone that race, prep and tune car for a living. Good job. @MountainPass

 

[destructure00]

MPP front camber arm will change how the car handle in corner, improves the front end traction tremendously. It is also the only arm in the market currently that is design to be adjustable on the fly easily and consistently between track and street. You don’t even need to remove the wheel. Just jack the front end, even one side at a time then swap out the shim from the top. Assuming the frunk is already out. You can tell MPP front camber arm is actually designed by someone that race, prep and tune car for a living.

Yeah MPP is what I was planning on. Do you have the rear camber arm as well? I'm assuming I should do both rather than just the fronts, but figured I'd ask anyway...

 

[beastmode13]

Yeah MPP is what I was planning on. Do you have the rear camber arm as well? I'm assuming I should do both rather than just the fronts, but figured I'd ask anyway...

Yes. I have both. Rear is set at 1.8. Front is at 6mm shim, which is roughly 1.8~2. I just left them there for track and street. Prior experiences from Bimmer and Mini with lots of f/r camber, my driving style produces even tire wear.

The negative camber will improve the tire life on track, which means it will pay for itself eventually.

 

[mcbarnet007]

Depending on how much you lower the car with the coilover. My experience with lowering alone (1.5 inches drop) gets me -1.7 degree front and rear. This is after loosening the 4 fuca bolts and pushing the top of the fuca toward the car's center line as much as possible. This amount of camber will help with cornering but you'll still have greater outer shoulder wear on the tire.

After the front and rear MPP camber arms, I am able to get around -3.3 in the front and -2.0 in the rear (you can get way more but this is what I am using) This increases the front end grip as well as evens out the tire wear better between inside and outside.

Personally if I could only do one, it would be the MPP coilovers as it gives you the most performance on track and greatly increases the enjoyment. Once you feel like you've maxed out the capability of the car then you can consider adding the front camber arm follow by rear camber arm.

 

[destructure00]

Order placed for @MountainPass front and rear camber arms

Personally if I could only do one, it would be the MPP coilovers as it gives you the most performance on track and greatly increases the enjoyment. Once you feel like you've maxed out the capability of the car then you can consider adding the front camber arm follow by rear camber arm.

Makes sense, but I think my priority is to stop tearing up tires as fast. Maybe coilovers at a later date.


@beastmode13, are you still using your XT970 pads on the street? I went ahead and ordered fronts and rears, curious if you're still seeing the accelerated wear you posted about awhile back.

 

[beastmode13]

Depending on how much you lower the car with the coilover. My experience with lowering alone (1.5 inches drop) gets me -1.7 degree front and rear. This is after loosening the 4 fuca bolts and pushing the top of the fuca toward the car's center line as much as possible. This amount of camber will help with cornering but you'll still have greater outer shoulder wear on the tire.

After the front and rear MPP camber arms, I am able to get around -3.3 in the front and -2.0 in the rear (you can get way more but this is what I am using) This increases the front end grip as well as evens out the tire wear better between inside and outside.

Personally if I could only do one, it would be the MPP coilovers as it gives you the most performance on track and greatly increases the enjoyment. Once you feel like you've maxed out the capability of the car then you can consider adding the front camber arm follow by rear camber arm.

Without front MPO arm with MPP Sports Coilover at ~1.25” I only got .96/.84 L/R front camber. This is without making any adjustment on Fuca mounts.

 

[beastmode13]

Order placed for @MountainPass front and rear camber arms



Makes sense, but I think my priority is to stop tearing up tires as fast. Maybe coilovers at a later date.


@beastmode13, are you still using your XT970 pads on the street? I went ahead and ordered fronts and rears, curious if you're still seeing the accelerated wear you posted about awhile back.

Order placed for @MountainPass front and rear camber arms



Makes sense, but I think my priority is to stop tearing up tires as fast. Maybe coilovers at a later date.


@beastmode13, are you still using your XT970 pads on the street? I went ahead and ordered fronts and rears, curious if you're still seeing the accelerated wear you posted about awhile back.

No XT970 on street. I post it in the XT910 vs 970 thread. One month of street driving worn out more pad than five sessions at Laguna Seca.

 

[MountainPass]

MPP front camber arm will change how the car handle in corner, improves the front end traction tremendously. I would even say with front camber arm you can skip aftermarket larger rear sway bar. It is also the only arm in the market currently that is design to be adjustable on the fly easily and consistently between track and street. You don’t even need to remove the wheel. Just jack the front end, even one side at a time then swap out the shim from the top. Assuming the frunk is already out. You can tell MPP front camber arm is designed by someone that race, prep and tune car for a living. Good job. @MountainPass

Thank you We even leave the frunk in and swap the shims in the wheel well!

Depending on how much you lower the car with the coilover. My experience with lowering alone (1.5 inches drop) gets me -1.7 degree front and rear. This is after loosening the 4 fuca bolts and pushing the top of the fuca toward the car's center line as much as possible. This amount of camber will help with cornering but you'll still have greater outer shoulder wear on the tire.

After the front and rear MPP camber arms, I am able to get around -3.3 in the front and -2.0 in the rear (you can get way more but this is what I am using) This increases the front end grip as well as evens out the tire wear better between inside and outside.

Personally if I could only do one, it would be the MPP coilovers as it gives you the most performance on track and greatly increases the enjoyment. Once you feel like you've maxed out the capability of the car then you can consider adding the front camber arm follow by rear camber arm.

Thank you for the detailed post, it is super informative and helpful. Eliminating understeer with our FUCA's is a great feeling!

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Yes, front end grip is the limiting factor with the stock P3D. My thought was also to go with camber arms only if you're on a limited budget, as that at least will allow you to get the most from your tyres.

FWIW, I'm still using XT970 pads front and rear for street driving, but haven't bothered to check the wear on them yet. I've done about 1000 road miles on them since the last time they were on track but they've been gentle road miles.
The only real issue with them is some squealing at very low speeds, which isn't a concern.

 

[destructure00]

FWIW, I'm still using XT970 pads front and rear for street driving, but haven't bothered to check the wear on them yet. I've done about 1000 road miles on them since the last time they were on track but they've been gentle road miles.
The only real issue with them is some squealing at very low speeds, which isn't a concern.

If you check them at some point let me know. I'll probably install and leave mine on once they show up, would prefer not to swap back and forth if I can avoid it, unless I also see significant street wear like beastmode13.


Mountain Pass said mid-late Feb for the next batch of UCAs, excited to see what difference they make. There's another NASA AZ track day coming up at WHP East on 1/25 and 1/26, if my XT970s show up in time I'll probably register. Got my tires flipped on the wheels this past weekend to try and even out the tire wear.

 

[MasterC17]

Good call, definitely worth spending the money on the arms as opposed to the coilovers. The amount of money you will save from replacing tires less will eventually pay for the set of coilovers

I got a little camber out of my coilovers, but not nearly enough for this car. And the MCS coilovers only shaved about 2 seconds off my time at VIR (a relatively long track). The stock suspension, while not perfect, is actually pretty good.

 

[destructure00]

Ok another question for you guys. I have a track day coming up this Sunday. My MPP rear camber arms arrived today, fronts are backordered until sometime next month. Would it be worth installing and having additional camber in the rear while having stock camber in front? What would that do to the car's driving dynamics?

 

[mcbarnet007]

Ok another question for you guys. I have a track day coming up this Sunday. My MPP rear camber arms arrived today, fronts are backordered until sometime next month. Would it be worth installing and having additional camber in the rear while having stock camber in front? What would that do to the car's driving dynamics?

I don't think it's worth having to get an alignment with just the rear arm. I would do them together.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Ok another question for you guys. I have a track day coming up this Sunday. My MPP rear camber arms arrived today, fronts are backordered until sometime next month. Would it be worth installing and having additional camber in the rear while having stock camber in front? What would that do to the car's driving dynamics?

From the limited time I've had on track with mine so far, I'd say wait for the fronts. IMO, the car needs more front end grip, so adding camber to the rears only might make that worse.

 

[MasterC17]

Ok another question for you guys. I have a track day coming up this Sunday. My MPP rear camber arms arrived today, fronts are backordered until sometime next month. Would it be worth installing and having additional camber in the rear while having stock camber in front? What would that do to the car's driving dynamics?

It depends how expensive your alignments are

It certainly would not hurt to get more camber in the rear, and would keep rear tire wear to a minimum.

 

[MountainPass]

Ok another question for you guys. I have a track day coming up this Sunday. My MPP rear camber arms arrived today, fronts are backordered until sometime next month. Would it be worth installing and having additional camber in the rear while having stock camber in front? What would that do to the car's driving dynamics?

You can install the arms but leave them at the stock length to get the benefits of the sealed spherical bearings without needing an alignment!

 

[destructure00]

I won't be also to get in for an alignment before Sunday, but I'll probably do as @MountainPass says and install and leave at factory length. I'm sure the blue color will help a lot Thanks all. Can't wait for those FUCAs!