Track Mode - a day with HOD @ Laguna - my personal observations…

[dortor4ev]

here is a 2:21 @ Thunderhill in the dry w/bypass - I'm not feeling too bad w/my 2:17.xx in damp conditions over the crow's nest - I'm not the driver in this video.

 

[mcbarnet007]

Contact John at [email protected] for some Endless EX90 pads. They last 8 track days and 8000 street miles for me.

 

[dortor4ev]

thanks mcbarnet007 - yeah I'm working with my local mechanic and very familiar with Endless products - use them on my other track cars - we'll be going that route - Mountain Pass also recommends them! I was hopiong to do 1 day with stock pads - then swap them out and get some A/B data to post - but apparently the stocks pads aren't up the task - so we'll just do "b" - LOL

 

[mcbarnet007]

thanks mcbarnet007 - yeah I'm working with my local mechanic and very familiar with Endless products - use them on my other track cars - we'll be going that route - Mountain Pass also recommends them! I was hopiong to do 1 day with stock pads - then swap them out and get some A/B data to post - but apparently the stocks pads aren't up the task - so we'll just do "b" - LOL

I went through two sets of stock pads very quickly doing just 80% braking on track. Switched to UPP track pads but it ate my rotors. Tried XT910 but they overheat quickly and looses bite. Finally settled on Endless. If you have stock rotors you can consider removing the heat shield to aid cooling.

 

[dortor4ev]

I've upgraded to the Mountain Pass/Gryodisc rotors - I'll note the heat shield hack to my mechanics - I'd love some more cooling.

I think the car could be very quick if I can get the brakes to last and get a few more sessions under my belt.

 

[dortor4ev]

@mcbarnet007 mechanic is telling me endless pads lack “fitment tabs” for the model 3 and make some noise on bumps and usage - is this your experience?

 

[beastmode13]

@mcbarnet007 mechanic is telling me endless pads lack “fitment tabs” for the model 3 and make some noise on bumps and usage - is this your experience?

@dortor4ev Check out post #95 & #96 on this thread Racing Brake XT910 vs XT970.

 

[FlyNavy01]

@mcbarnet007 mechanic is telling me endless pads lack “fitment tabs” for the model 3 and make some noise on bumps and usage - is this your experience?

Yes, the rear pads from Endless lack the spring tabs that the stock rear pads have to keep them from dragging on the rotor. My driver's side rear lightly squeaks when moving forward at speeds below 20mph. This isn't uncommon for more aggressive/track-oriented pads. I'll be trying to fix that this weekend and will update if I find a solution.

 

[mcbarnet007]

@mcbarnet007 mechanic is telling me endless pads lack “fitment tabs” for the model 3 and make some noise on bumps and usage - is this your experience?

Yes, the rear pads from Endless lack the spring tabs that the stock rear pads have to keep them from dragging on the rotor. My driver's side rear lightly squeaks when moving forward at speeds below 20mph. This isn't uncommon for more aggressive/track-oriented pads. I'll be trying to fix that this weekend and will update if I find a solution.

All after market pads for the rear lack the spring tabs, the trick is to reuse the oem shim on the outside brake pad. Remove the shim from oem pad carefully and then use a hammer to flatten the two circular middle part. Then put the shim on the aftermarket pad with the ears wrap around as circled in blue. This is the part that will keep the pads from rattling when you brake and accelerate. I've driven over 10k miles with the Endless pads and the only time I get a squeak is after rain. Make sure to bed in the pads properly and it should be virtually noise free.

 

[FlyNavy01]

The OEM shims are on my endless pads, but one still lightly squeaks about 50% of the time at lower speeds. It's quiet enough that I can only really hear it with the window rolled down. Not a huge deal, but it's more annoying on an electric car that's otherwise silent.

It feels silly when I drive onto base everyday and the gate guards comment on how they love the car but it squeaks as I drive off lol. I think today I might try hammering the shims down better and applying some anti-squeak grease along the tabs.

 

[mcbarnet007]

The OEM shims are on my endless pads, but one still lightly squeaks about 50% of the time at lower speeds. It's quiet enough that I can only really hear it with the window rolled down. Not a huge deal, but it's more annoying on an electric car that's otherwise silent.

It feels silly when I drive onto base everyday and the gate guards comment on how they love the car but it squeaks as I drive off lol. I think today I might try hammering the shims down better and applying some anti-squeak grease along the tabs.

Have you done a track day on them yet?

 

[dortor4ev]

@mcbarnet007 thank you!
@FlyNavy01 thank you!

 

[FlyNavy01]

Have you done a track day on them yet?

Two track days on them so far and I'll be doing another tomorrow. Other than the squeaks, they've been great.

 

[dortor4ev]

Another bite of the Apple - this time with endless brake pads - mucho better

video from the Thunderhill morning session - w/on-screen Data - 2018 Model 3 Performance - MPP Sports Shocks, MPP Brakes, MPP Stainless Steel Lines, EndLess Brakepads, lowered, track brake fluid, some modest track alignment.

I'm sure someone will correct me - but from my internet searching this is the current lap record for Model 3P @ 3 mile thunderhill - no better lap time videos have been published that I can find - please update me as you see fit.

2:11.xx is a good lap time for a 4 door sedan…I'm farily confident in 2:05.xx being possible with better tires (still DOT street) but not the ECO range enhanced ones on the car in these videos.
ApexPRO lap times from this session are as follows: 2:11.67, 2:11.74, 2:11.52, 2:12.77

given that this was the 1st morning session tire pressures were not dialed in - I went out at 42 psi (50 F) came in at 51 psi (way too high) - I set them for next session "hot" to 38 psi - and was expecting to be slightly quicker - maybe a 2:09 or better - but alas Tesla software throwing every warning in the book at me during the 2nd session made me decide to throw in the towel regarding this car as a track car - it's just too much work to make this thing work at the track…I'll let others blaze that trail and ride their coat tails.

 

[dortor4ev]

Summary:

1. Track day @ Laguna - car was fun, stock factory compoments not up to the task - quickest times can only be achieved for 3 laps - after that the car needs 'rest' - best time 1:5x.xx on stock tires vs. 1:37.xx for GT3 on stock tires and stock factory gear (track alignment)
2. Track day @ Thunderhill - car was fun, upgraded shocks, alignment + brakes (OEM pads), brake fluid - quickest times can only be achieved for 3 laps, after that car needs a rest, best time was 2:17.xx on stock tires vs. 1:58.xx on stock tires stock factory gear (track alignment) - OEM pads melted after a single 20 minute track session - limped car home doing nothing but regen - the OEM pads were literally GONE!
3. Track day @ Thunderhill - car was fun, same as #2, new Endless Pads, quickest time achieved only for 3 laps, after that car needs a rest, best time was an impressive 2:11.xx on stock tires vs. 1:58.xx for GT3 (same as above) - tried for 2nd session, but while the car was physically correct - Tesla's software was NOT up to the task - car on track threw 8 different codes and was very very very unhappy

• automatic forward braking disabled
• regenerative braking disabled
• automatic brake hold disabled
• stability control disabled (Drive with caution)
• adaptive cruise control disable (not needed/used on track)
• autopilot lane keeping disabled (not needed/used on track)
• rear facing backup camera offline
• brake overheat - reduced braking effectiveness

and all the above "faults" dropped the car out of "track mode" - and the car did not recover until after I brought it in and let it sit for 30 minutes…after it's "rest" the car recovered and I drove it home no problem - what went wrong? your guess is as a good as mine, and that is the problem - we just don't know, nor can we learn because the Model 3 is a pretty closed box, and calling Tesla Technical support and saying you're having trouble at the track - they just laugh at you.

I have several conclusions in no particular order

• the Model 3 can be competitive for a "time trial" - one lap out, flying lap #1, flying lap #2
• a competitive Model 3 Performacne requires extensive modifications & preparation to achieve these numbers - way beyond the mods you need for porsche
• the Model 3 has NO stamina for a common 25 minute track day session - 4 laps is all you get - cool down on track - and you get another 3 laps - it can not run full pace for the entire 25 minutes
• the Model 3 does not have enough battery capacity for a serious track day with out fast chargers at the track - 60% battery usage @ Thunderhill for one 25 minute session - typical track day is 5 25 minute sessions
• Tesla's software is too fragile and will freak out after extensive tracking - extensive being defined as two sessions - I cut my 3rd track day short due to a vast number of software faults robbing me of confidence since I wasn't quite sure what state the car was in given all the warnings - I had limited support/tools at the track to properly diagnose the problems to determine what exactly was the problem - given that it's my daily driver - pack it up and bring it home - I have neither the time or access to sufficient technical information or tools to fully diagnose/fix Tesla problems at the track - it's still very very much a "black box"
• The Model 3 can be super quick for it's size and weight - but ultimately my conclusion is it's a got a long ways to go still
• _IF_ the Model 3 is quick out on track - just wait a bit - that problem will fix itself in one of three ways

1. performance will start to taper due to extended use
2. the car will come off track because it's almost out battery juice and will be unavailable for the next 2 hours while the owner leaves the track for fast charging
3. the car's performance will be reduced because Tesla's software will be throwing codes left and right and distracting the driver from optimal performance

• the Model 3 is a tantalizing sample of what EV's could be on track - and they are coming, and they will be quick, but there is more iteration required
• casual tracking of a Model 3 will lead to disappointment - it's just not there
• concerted effort can be brought to bear and you can track a model 3 if you're willing to endure some pain/disappointment for moments of outstanding glory that will surprise and confound the petrol head - but optimal results required that you show up with crew, have replaced most of the factory bits, have experienced team members, you work around Tesla's lack of robust software, and that you have time to iterate alignemnt, brakes, fluids, pads, tries, pressures and solve the at track fast charging problem, and that weather and conditions are just right

I am giving up tracking my Model 3 Performance - but will keep the track bits on it- and understand that when I trailer my track car (my GT3) to a track day it's why I have a track car - I will drive to the track in the best sub $60,000 EV using auto-pilot and a car pool sticker. If it tickels my fancy I might take my Model 3 our for 3 or 4 laps and surprise a few of the slower drivers at said track day. But I'll keep it a secret that that it can only do it for 3 or 4 laps, and that now I've used so much battery that I'm not sure how I'm going to get home.

 

[dortor4ev]

here are lap times from Saturday Feb. 8th, 2020 w/HOD @ Thunderhill 3 mile w/crows nest (not bypass) - morning session (1st session) 100% battery out on track - MPP Sport shocks, lowered, MPP Upgraded Brakes, Endless Brake pads, Alignment - Stock M3P tires (Michellin all season 4S's ECO Tesla model), pressures were 42 cold - 50- psi at the end (too high) - I think some lower pressures would be slightly quicker - I never got to try in session #2 because ya'know not-a-track car Tesla software faults…

lap times for a 2018 Model 3 Performance in track mode

1. 2.50.00 - outlap behind some ya'hooo doing a parade lap under yellow - no passing - 98% battery
2. 2:11.67
3. 2:11.74
4. 2:11.52
5. 2:12.77 - traffic
6. 2:16.05 - max power tapering now - NOT LIMP MODE, just muted but still "quick"
7. 2:29.20 - in lap - @ 43% battery

top speed on the fastest lap was 123.69 - fast for any street car @ thunderhill
maximum braking g's was: 1.14 g's (tire limits)
maximum lateral g's was: 1.05 g's (tire limits)

for those of you familiar with Thunderhill 3 mile course - turn #10 - has good camber and a good APEX - tuck your driver's side wheel into the camber and apex of turn 10 and apply full throttle to the Tesla M3P and sheer amount of instant and massive torque seemingly "teleports" the car to the turn in point for turn #11 - it's unlike anything I've experienced in any other car (991.2 cup car or otherwise) - and it's will bring a smile to _ANYONES_ face - instant full torque off a well cambered APEX WILL make a believer out of you - it's just such a spectacular thing of beauty and power that you just can't help yourself and realize this _IS_ the future…I simply love it, and NO ICE car can replicated it.

similarily heading uphill into Turn 5 (crows nest) in an ICE car you turn in and then build power so that you are at sufficient power when the car lands on the otherside of blind hill - bring that technique in an EV and you will be competing with SpaceX for rocket launch windows - so much torque so quickly leads one to change the driving style for turn 5 lest you get what you asked for which is full-tilt torque RIGHT NOW!!! Wrong place, wrong time, but wow still a thing of beauty…

the whole FULL INSTANT torque thing is a game changer - and better than even the best NA ICE engines - it gives you such control as a driver and the amount of torque you can deliver with a flick of your foot makes one giddy…control is subtle and yet aggressive and easy to modulate…

NO CAR at thunderhill is in the right gear to exit turn #11 - 2nd is too high, and 3rd is too luggy - you turn in and apply full throttle and let the rev's come up and build power as your straigthen out the S's in the hopes of rocketing out of 13 building speed to the big braking zone into 14…did I say no car?

oh crap - I forgot about the Model 3! full torque NOW out of turn #11 - NO PROBLEM - here let me deliver 450 HP and 472 ft/lb of AWD torque RIGHT NOW in the next 10 milli secs with milli-sec level traction and stability control - you want to leave that GT3 that's on your butt coming out of 11 - DONE! - he'll have to shift if he's in 2nd, and he has no torque if he's in 3rd - either way you've left him behind - cause ya'know you have all the power NOW!

2:11.52 for Model 3P on not so grippy stock ECO-range tires is pretty good IMHO - a nothing was catching me in my session until I lost max power… in laps 5 & 6…

I'll humbly suggest that on a some decent peformance tires (M PilotSport 2's like on my GT3 where I routinely pull 1.2++ g's or more in cornering) - the Model 3P could probably do a 2:05.xx or slightly better - I would've gotten to under 2:10.xx just with better tire pressures in the 2nd session.

Anything in the low 2 minute range @ 3 mile thunderhill w/crows nest is a decent lap time…below 2 minutes is reserved for the truly quick and prepped cars…

the Model 3 is undeniably quick - especially when you consider it's a 4,100 lbs 4 door sedan w/Car Pool sticker…

Quote:
you've not heard of the millennium falcon? … yeah it's quick enough for you old man! --- Han Solo​

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Summary:

1. Track day @ Laguna - car was fun, stock factory compoments not up to the task - quickest times can only be achieved for 3 laps - after that the car needs 'rest' - best time 1:5x.xx on stock tires vs. 1:37.xx for GT3 on stock tires and stock factory gear (track alignment)
2. Track day @ Thunderhill - car was fun, upgraded shocks, alignment + brakes (OEM pads), brake fluid - quickest times can only be achieved for 3 laps, after that car needs a rest, best time was 2:17.xx on stock tires vs. 1:58.xx on stock tires stock factory gear (track alignment) - OEM pads melted after a single 20 minute track session - limped car home doing nothing but regen - the OEM pads were literally GONE!
3. Track day @ Thunderhill - car was fun, same as #2, new Endless Pads, quickest time achieved only for 3 laps, after that car needs a rest, best time was an impressive 2:11.xx on stock tires vs. 1:58.xx for GT3 (same as above) - tried for 2nd session, but while the car was physically correct - Tesla's software was NOT up to the task - car on track threw 8 different codes and was very very very unhappy

• automatic forward braking disabled
• regenerative braking disabled
• automatic brake hold disabled
• stability control disabled (Drive with caution)
• adaptive cruise control disable (not needed/used on track)
• autopilot lane keeping disabled (not needed/used on track)
• rear facing backup camera offline
• brake overheat - reduced braking effectiveness

and all the above "faults" dropped the car out of "track mode" - and the car did not recover until after I brought it in and let it sit for 30 minutes…after it's "rest" the car recovered and I drove it home no problem - what went wrong? your guess is as a good as mine, and that is the problem - we just don't know, nor can we learn because the Model 3 is a pretty closed box, and calling Tesla Technical support and saying you're having trouble at the track - they just laugh at you.

I have several conclusions in no particular order

• the Model 3 can be competitive for a "time trial" - one lap out, flying lap #1, flying lap #2
• a competitive Model 3 Performacne requires extensive modifications & preparation to achieve these numbers - way beyond the mods you need for porsche
• the Model 3 has NO stamina for a common 25 minute track day session - 4 laps is all you get - cool down on track - and you get another 3 laps - it can not run full pace for the entire 25 minutes
• the Model 3 does not have enough battery capacity for a serious track day with out fast chargers at the track - 60% battery usage @ Thunderhill for one 25 minute session - typical track day is 5 25 minute sessions
• Tesla's software is too fragile and will freak out after extensive tracking - extensive being defined as two sessions - I cut my 3rd track day short due to a vast number of software faults robbing me of confidence since I wasn't quite sure what state the car was in given all the warnings - I had limited support/tools at the track to properly diagnose the problems to determine what exactly was the problem - given that it's my daily driver - pack it up and bring it home - I have neither the time or access to sufficient technical information or tools to fully diagnose/fix Tesla problems at the track - it's still very very much a "black box"
• The Model 3 can be super quick for it's size and weight - but ultimately my conclusion is it's a got a long ways to go still
• _IF_ the Model 3 is quick out on track - just wait a bit - that problem will fix itself in one of three ways

1. performance will start to taper due to extended use
2. the car will come off track because it's almost out battery juice and will be unavailable for the next 2 hours while the owner leaves the track for fast charging
3. the car's performance will be reduced because Tesla's software will be throwing codes left and right and distracting the driver from optimal performance

• the Model 3 is a tantalizing sample of what EV's could be on track - and they are coming, and they will be quick, but there is more iteration required
• casual tracking of a Model 3 will lead to disappointment - it's just not there
• concerted effort can be brought to bear and you can track a model 3 if you're willing to endure some pain/disappointment for moments of outstanding glory that will surprise and confound the petrol head - but optimal results required that you show up with crew, have replaced most of the factory bits, have experienced team members, you work around Tesla's lack of robust software, and that you have time to iterate alignemnt, brakes, fluids, pads, tries, pressures and solve the at track fast charging problem, and that weather and conditions are just right

I am giving up tracking my Model 3 Performance - but will keep the track bits on it- and understand that when I trailer my track car (my GT3) to a track day it's why I have a track car - I will drive to the track in the best sub $60,000 EV using auto-pilot and a car pool sticker. If it tickels my fancy I might take my Model 3 our for 3 or 4 laps and surprise a few of the slower drivers at said track day. But I'll keep it a secret that that it can only do it for 3 or 4 laps, and that now I've used so much battery that I'm not sure how I'm going to get home.

This is not my experience at all. Seems like you have problem(s) with your particular car.
You keep saying "car needs a rest after 3 laps" but don't explain why.
Be more specfic about why you felt the need to come in after 3 laps.
You need more data to determine what's going wrong. Consider using Scanmytesla and measuring brake temps manually after each session.
Don't give up that easily.

 

[dortor4ev]

BTW: the Mountain Pass motorsports bits rock - they are world class and transform the car. There is no way I'd be this far along without those bits and pieces - and they clearly bring the goods - and enhance the Model 3 platform. I'd just frustrated trying to solo this at the track...

if I go to track again I'd like to go with some technical support, parts, supplies and fluids, and some sort of at track fast charging - so we can iterate on the car and charge it between sessions - we need to learn a lot more about this car and it will require close to factory level support to iterate fast enough and far enough to learn where everything needs to be to make this car reliable at the track. Between work, familiy, and limited track time I just can not afford the time to learn my way into tracking a Model 3 - 1 or 2 sessions at a time - I'm wasting 3/4 to 1/2 of a track day every time I encounter a technical difficulty - not to mention the simple fact that you can only run 2 sessions before needing a fast charge…

I'd like to learn to be quick in this car, but I'd need an environment where I can try different things to see what works and what doesn't - between consumption issues and teething pains it's going to take forever … and I have a perfectly good track car that just kinda sorta works…for far less effort.

if anyone has any ideas and could suggest a plan where we could make some serious progress in one or two days - I'm happy to bring myself and car and play - but I"m done going to the track with the Model 3 to run 1.87 sessions and go home.

 

[dortor4ev]

super fun trying to figure out what to do with these errors @ the track - for those that haven't seen these errors - when they occur they drop the car out of track mode - my Model 3 took 30 minutes off track to recover from all these issues.

 

[dortor4ev]

consumption figures from the morning session…