Track Mode m3p

[paranoidroid]

Unless you drive in track mode exclusively as I have for months now, I can safely say that I have driven more Track Mode miles than you and I'll have to totally disagree with you here. With the proper suspension you will not get the described negative behavior you are attributing to Track Mode and without it you will -- Track Mode or not.

Sorry, I am just going to disagree with you here. You may have more Track Mode miles on public roads than me but you aren't able to push it to the limits as much in public - I have pushed the limits of Track Mode on the track multiple times as well as observed dozens of others do the same.

There was no correlation between suspension setups and if the driver spun out or did not spin out. There were plenty of upgraded coilover setups (MPP & UP) and drivers who spun out. In fact the higher level of regen decelleration in Track Mode can make the lift-off oversteer in certain situations at high speed happen very quickly.

It is extremely difficult to spin the car in the default mode. You can watch the CNet Tesla winter test ground tests whey they try the spin the car. The stability controls will clamp down any yaw movement before they can get out of hand. Track mode will absolutely let the yaw out to where if you don't have the immediate and correct reflexes will result in a high speed spin.

Do you have much formal HPDE training? Those who do will realize what I said happens in any car when loosening the nannies and why no one recommends driving in this mode in public. I have friends who teach HPDE and I have been taught by them as well. They have absolutely superb car control abilities, many race wheel-to-wheel at near professional levels. I can tell you none of them will deem it acceptable to drive in public with loosened stability controls.

No one is a perfect driver - especially in widely changing and varying conditions. All it takes is one incident to happen that could have been prevented with the default stability controls. At least on the track the public isn't put at risk.

 

[Orwell]

I use track mode on the streets for better turn in. It feels more like the RWD Model 3.

 

[Perry]

You may have more Track Mode miles on public roads than me but you aren't able to push it to the limits as much in public.

If I were to agree with your argument that there was no way form me to push the car to the limits on public roads then why would anyone else be able to push it further than me and get in trouble with Track Mode on the streets. Is seems you are counter arguing your own point which was how unsafe Track Mode is on the streets.

Those who do will realize what I said happens in any car when loosening the nannies and why no one recommends driving in this mode in public. They have absolutely superb car control abilities, many race wheel-to-wheel at near professional levels. I can tell you none of them will deem it acceptable to drive in public with loosened stability controls.

That's because in most cars that have such a performance option it turns the stability control totally off. Tesla has no such option. Track mode does not disable stability control. It tunes it to be slightly, but only very slightly more forgiving. The difference is so small that its hard to even tell at times because there is a greater variability in road conditions.

 

[Magnets!]

I think this over cautiousness of using track mode outside the track is misplaced. Yes I know Tesla states to not do so but it's probably for different reasons than what they say. Track mode is definitely not any less safe than normal mode in any way.

I speak from experience having more miles on my car in track mode than not. I have been using it exclusively, since it was released, for all my driving. I have done extensive testing in all conditions (rain, dry, all kinds of roads) gradually taking the car to its gripping limit to see where and if, it truly puts the car in any more danger. My conclusion is that I don't think it does, which is contrary to my initial belief shaped by statements on this forum and from Tesla.

I have not been able to spin the car or lose traction any more with it on than off. Even in track mode, skid control and stabilization control are still present just slightly more forgiving on power limitation. I repeat the nannies are not turned off just tuned for more aggressive driving which is what I do anyway so its more befitting. Where the differences are more noticeable is in the cooling and regen braking. Two things that have nothing to do with safety.

The regen is more powerful and more to my liking allowing for much less brake pedal use. And the cooling in track mode is actually the way it should have been by default. It completely eliminates the power restriction that was plaguing me due to inadequate cooling of the batteries. I think track mode is miss-named, probably for warrantee reasons to discourage its frequent use. Sure, the life of the cooler if frequently put in overdrive might be shortened but that is Tesla's fault for not putting a beefier cooler in there that can do the job when it's needed rather than cheep out and cut power instead.

I argue and believe that Track Mode is actually "proper operation" mode and just as safe. The normal mode is more of an efficiency mode that I don't care much for, and has no place on a performance oriented model. There is already a chill mode for that so the efficient cooling mode belongs there. It would be nice if the "Track Mode" term was retired and the three functions it represents where separated into la carte options that can be set while driving:
1. No power limitation with skid/stabilization control (on/off)
2. Mad Max regen (on/off)
3. No power limitation cooling overdrive (on/off) (ON uses more battery)

This way, on the streets, you could have 2, 3 ON and 1 OFF, if you're insecure about your driving abilities, although I believe even with all of them ON, this car is still safer than any other car on the road because of its low center of gravity. Even with my overly aggressive driving and intention, it is very difficult to get into trouble or lose control of this car in Track Mode. It is that well balanced and this mode should be used daily for those who want the best out of their performance vehicle.

Curious what the additional power consumption is for track mode, any idea?

 

[paranoidroid]

That's because in most cars that have such a performance option it turns the stability control totally off. Tesla has no such option. Track mode does not disable stability control. It tunes it to be slightly, but only very slightly more forgiving. The difference is so small that its hard to even tell at times because there is a greater variability in road conditions.

Actually Track Mode makes the car nearly the same as all stability controls off. It does add other features on top such as helping you rotate but it will also let you lose the car and spin it.

Randy Pobst who spent all day with us last weekend said exactly the same thing - and he loves it this way. For Track Driving. The stock car nearly behaves as if it has no stability controls. This is something observed with the amount of wheels of track and spins that day.

So you're very incorrect again, both in observed behavior that I've seen as well as explicitly stated by a pro driver who tuned Track Mode himself.

I welcome you to join us at the track. And see for yourself.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

then why would anyone else be able to push it further than me and get in trouble with Track Mode on the streets.

Why? Because there are drivers who know nothing about car handling dynamics, weight transfer, etc. That is why stability control exists and has saved lives. Pushing a car further than you do would not be difficult at all for a novice or poor driver - because you know not to push the car past reasonable limits, in general. And generally that is safe, until you make a mistake, which happens to everyone. Which is the point of this conversation - mistakes happen and that’s when full nannie mode is needed.

Can it stop all loss of control incidents?...of course not...but it helps.

 

[Nocturnal]

Curious what the additional power consumption is for track mode, any idea?

Must be substantial. At least as much as running the AC full blast.

 

[Perry]

Curious what the additional power consumption is for track mode, any idea?

I suspect not that much. The same as if you ran your AC continuously plus a blaring fan in the frunc area. The larger consumption that overshadows the cooling is the aggressive driving that's usually done in conjunction with Track Mode being enabled which masks the AC consumption. My range has gone to as low as 60milles. But again that is more the driving than the cooling itself.

 

[Perry]

Actually Track Mode makes the car nearly the same as all stability controls off. It does add other features on top such as helping you rotate but it will also let you lose the car and spin it.

Randy Pobst who spent all day with us last weekend said exactly the same thing - and he loves it this way. For Track Driving. The stock car nearly behaves as if it has no stability controls. This is something observed with the amount of wheels of track and spins that day.

So you're very incorrect again, both in observed behavior that I've seen as well as explicitly stated by a pro driver who tuned Track Mode himself.

I welcome you to join us at the track. And see for yourself.

I've been on the track and that is not my experience. Now its possible that the model 3 is such a stable and balanced platform that even with everything turned off, it behaves so well as to lead me to think that there isn't much difference between with/without nannies. That's possible because I have never disconnected the speed sensors, which supposedly really turns everything off, to compare. So I can only compare to how other performance cars I have driven (all ICE cars) perform when all computer aides are off and it's usually a significant difference. On the model 3 I see only a negligible difference under extreme driving and no difference outside the track.

 

[paranoidroid]

On the model 3 I see only a negligible difference under extreme driving and no difference under driving outside the track.

There is a HUGE difference in vehicle dynamics between track mode and non-track mode when driven at the limits. One lap on an autocross course will immediately show it.

 

[Perry]

There is a HUGE difference in vehicle dynamics between track mode and non-track mode when driven at the limits. One lap on an autocross course will immediately show it.

Performance wise I think we all agree there is a difference. We where more arguing about how much instability is added if track mode was the default for street driving. I was arguing that the difference is negligible and not an absolute "no no" for street driving.

 

[afadeev]

Performance wise I think we all agree there is a difference. We where more arguing about how much instability is added if track mode was the default for street driving. I was arguing that the difference is negligible and not an absolute "no no" for street driving.

There is ZERO "instability" added by track mode.

It does increase regen braking levels, which I love, and makes the car much more responsive by dialing out some of the understeer. This transforms the TM3P from an understeering pig into a car that is much more likely to do what you want it to do during an emergency maneuver.

There is a difference with "track mode", and it's all positive!
The only two downsides are increased energy consumption (for extra cooling) and auto-steer being disabled, else I would be driving in track mode all the time.

It is definitely less safe. No question about it. It's far easier to spin your car in Track Mode. Not saying it's "dangerous" at all but not as controlled as the standard mode.

Prove it - where is your data?
How often have you spun your TM3P in "track mode"? Have any statistically valid observations on others spinning?

Or where in How Track Mode Works explanation does it provide theoretical justification of why TM is "less safe"?

Or did you just made this all up?

I believe Track Mode allows you to operate closer to the limits of the vehicle.

Yes, but it in no way forces you to do so.
No more than a TM3P force you to be any less safe than a vanilla TM3 SR. The former is faster and more fun to drive, but is in no way more "dangerous", or "less safe", which is the same thing, BTW (unless your real name is Ralph Nader).

Making any car more neutral handling, and more fun to drive, is always a good thing!

But the bigger point is, unless you are goofing around, why would anyone use it on the street?

Because it makes the car more enjoyable to drive, that's why!
Simple, really.


a

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Yes, but it in no way forces you to do so.

The envelope is expanded so you're able to get yourself in a worse situation. I said nothing about it forcing that, and it's not necessary for the car to "force you" there for it to be more dangerous. All it takes is an overconfident, inexperienced driver. An inadvertent liftoff when near the limit of traction and you might lose the rear end. As you say, the car rotates better in Track Mode. There is a reason many cars are biased to understeer; it is dynamically stable. An experienced driver of course can use countersteer and throttle/brake control to control oversteer to an extent (which is why it may be preferred for fast driving), but that is a much more challenging driving task and requires fast & appropriate reactions.

 

[Perry]

The envelope is expanded so you're able to get yourself in a worse situation.

Only very slightly so on an already extremely well handling car.

All it takes is an overconfident, inexperienced driver.

No, it takes a lot more than that to get into trouble with Track Mode on the streets. It would take an extreme act of foolishness which would get you in trouble either way. With or without Track Mode the car is still safer than most if not all cars out there so if the public survived those other cars they'll be fine with Track Mode on the streets.

I'll put it this way. I would feel safer with my teen aged son, assuming equal behavior, in a Model 3 with Track Mode ON than any other top heavy ICE car.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It would take an extreme act of foolishness

Happens all the time.

which would get you in trouble either way

In the event of extreme foolishness, possibly you'd be in trouble either way, but more likely to be in trouble with Track Mode.

I would feel safer with my teen aged son, assuming equal behavior, in a Model 3 with Track Mode ON than any other top heavy ICE car.

Sure, but that's not the relevant comparison.

so if the public survived those other cars

They don't always survive. Fatal accidents occur due to loss of control.

 

[paranoidroid]

I invite Perry & afadeev to come to the next local autocross event where it's a safe environment to run Track Mode and see how easy it is to lose control of the car with Track Mode vs. without Track Mode - even at the low speeds autocross tracks run at.

 

[Kilotango74]

Personally I have not had the opportunity to drive a Performance yet so I really don't have any experience, however this seems to me like another example of Tesla labeling a certain mode if you will in a manner that makes its applied usage unclear at best. Kinda like Autopilot. The name Autopilot, to the average person, implies that you can set it and forget it, hence we see problems and Tesla gets scrutiny. If this was truly a "track only" mode then really think it should be a separate option that individuals owners could purchase and download. The vast majority of us are never going to track our cars, I am certainly not, so why would be need something that would be only for the track. I don't see this as being any different than any other system in a automobile that dumbs down the nanny systems, except of course it has that "Track" label. Is there anywhere in the manual that labels it as an off road application only? For instance in the owners supplement for the Ford GT350 it illustrates which of its various modes are for public roads and which are for track days and drag strips. Sure this is partly to protect the company, but it gives you some indication of how unruly your vehicle will become in these modes. I guess my bottom line is that Tesla needs to do a better job ad labeling their stuff. Just my opinion, as I have said I haven't even test driven a performance yet. But as a consumer I would be disappointed if a "track only" option was thrust upon me and not a choice.

 

[Kilotango74]

LOL yeah I actually just read this on Tesla's webpage about track mode

"With Track Mode, which is designed specifically for use on closed autocross circuits and racetracks..."

guess I don't know what to think, but I know its an option I probably won't utilize. My spirited driving usually means getting up to 5-10 over the speed limit quickly. My wife always tells me to pick a speed I can afford, and well now I have a job that pays me twice as much soooo....

Maybe instead of "track mode" it should be "Living in Russia making YouTube videos mode"....

 

[Visionary]

Perry, when you go the track are you able to run most of the day or will to charge at some point?. Thx

 

[brianman]

Sorry but I disagree. It is nearly impossible to spin the car even with Track Mode on and I have tried even in the wet. Not saying it's totally impossible but you have to try really hard, be purposeful, and/or drive so recklessly that the car would spin even without track mode.

Disagree. The first (and only so far) day I turned on Track Mode, I spun within the first minute. Pavement was dry.

With 6+ years of driving Tesla vehicles without Track Mode, I can say definitively that what induced the spin with Track Mode on would not have induced a spin with it off.