Track Mode

[Powered By Jay]

IMO there's very poor evidence that the brakes have any part in this.

There is this from Musk:
“[The car’s computer] will tell you, ‘if you do this, it’s a bit risky; you’re going to wear out your brakes a little sooner, you might blow a circuit.’ But it’ll be clear, ‘this is the risk that you’re taking.’

Tesla Model 3 Track Mode Exists Because Elon Musk is a Huge Nerd | Inverse

 

[ulrichw]

There is this from Musk:
“[The car’s computer] will tell you, ‘if you do this, it’s a bit risky; you’re going to wear out your brakes a little sooner, you might blow a circuit.’ But it’ll be clear, ‘this is the risk that you’re taking.’

Tesla Model 3 Track Mode Exists Because Elon Musk is a Huge Nerd | Inverse

Yeah - that's fair. I reworded my post a bit to allow for the brakes' involvement.

Nonetheless, I'll stand by the general assertion that there should be no performance-motivated dependency on the "big brakes" in order to have Track Mode work. Any dependency is likely a marketing move.

(I'll allow that they could possibly tune control gains and the such to the characteristics of the particular brakes, but IMO that would be risky, because people can still use different brake pad compounds which drastically change brake response, and besides which, the tires are probably an even larger factor - this means that they should not have dependencies on particular hardware in the Vehicle Dynamics system in general).

 

[Amp3d]

( this means that they should not have dependencies on particular hardware in the Vehicle Dynamics system in general).

What’s the logical limit of this? Should they be able to assume the motors are unaltered? That it’s not riding on bicycle tires? Should it be able to adapt to being tranformed into a donk on 30” wheels?

There are always going to be boundary conditions that go into the design. Brakes seem like a wise one from a safety standpoint.

 

[ulrichw]

What’s the logical limit of this? Should they be able to assume the motors are unaltered? That it’s not riding on bicycle tires? Should it be able to adapt to being tranformed into a donk on 30” wheels?

There are always going to be boundary conditions that go into the design. Brakes seem like a wise one from a safety standpoint.

This would be possibly true if the brakes had a big role in the stability/traction control domain.

They do have a role, but it's not a big one. Typical systems apply light braking to one or the other wheel to induce weight transfer and/or increase slip angles to balance the car. Because the car's usually already at close to the cornering limit (perhaps even beyond) when this happens, if anything other than light braking is used the car would be thrown into an uncontrollable skid.

This is a level of braking that any type of brakes should be able to deliver safely and repeatedly (or else we'd be talking about much more fundamental safety issues).

 

[Amp3d]

But racing overall is pretty pointless. Many people just do it for fun. Looking cool is sometimes the whole point...

Completely agree. But track mode was never really exclusively advertised as a mode for fast lap times. It's not called race mode. If you listen to mkbhd it really sounds more of a drift mode than best lap time one. Also Tesla did not even bother to take people to a real track like BMW or Mercedes usually do or Jaguar recently did with the I-Pace, so I really don't understand why some people are so hell-bent track mode just being for laps times and driving at the limit...
Marques Brownlee on Instagram: “Taking @Tesla's brand new car to a track and getting some power slides in. Not a bad day.”

Those are fair points. I generally view motorsports through a lens of competition and objective achievements, but the only reason I’ve ever competed is because it’s fun.

And good point about Tesla not even putting folks on real tracks. I also don’t understand why Tesla doesn’t put some more qualified drivers in these cars. Well, maybe I do. They seem to that know a good chunk of their market isn’t automotive enthusiasts, but rather tech enthusiasts. I assume that’s why so many of these highly viewed YouTube videos are by people who look like they should be reviewing a MacBook rather than a vehicle. It’s also evident in their limited automotive vocabulary. And I can count on one hand the number I’ve seen with helmets on. I’ve personally never been on a track without a helmet.

I do hope that in the hands of a really capable driver track mode turns out to be a lot more than “drift mode”.

 

[Amp3d]

This would be possibly true if the brakes had a big role in the stability/traction control domain.

They do have a role, but it's not a big one. Typical systems apply light braking to one or the other wheel to induce weight transfer and/or increase slip angles to balance the car. Because the car's usually already at close to the cornering limit (perhaps even beyond) when this happens, if anything other than light braking is used the car would be thrown into an uncontrollable skid.

This is a level of braking that any type of brakes should be able to deliver safely and repeatedly (or else we'd be talking about much more fundamental safety issues).

I don’t know that you can count on extremely hot brakes to do even the limited interventions you are suggesting with reliable effect. On the street it would almost never be an issue because that severe overheat condition is almost never going to happen. But a bunch of consecutive laps is a lot different.

I’d also think part of the role of large brakes is to put the driver in a position where those smaller interventions from the stability/traction control systems have a chance of actually helping.

If the brakes have faded and the driver is grossly over speed going into a corner, you are absolutely correct, it won’t matter what the control systems try to do.

 

[usofrob]

When someone was trying to figure out what brakes Tesla was using they found the brakes had a special feature to help with traction control or limited slip or something similar. And that feature is rather unique. If they're using that feature (which they probably are or they would have gotten different calipers), then it makes sense that you'd need to have PUP to get Track Mode. Also, it seems like they would have know that long long ago and could have mentioned it when they mentioned the potential Track Mode in the first place.

 

[ulrichw]

I don’t know that you can count on extremely hot brakes to do even the limited interventions you are suggesting with reliable effect. [...]
If the brakes have faded and the driver is grossly over speed going into a corner, you are absolutely correct, it won’t matter what the control systems try to do.

The size of the brakes is a factor, but not even the primary factor in brake fade. I'd be willing to bet that even Tesla's upgraded brakes will be subject to fade on certain tracks. Street pads are not designed for track use - they're tuned more for low noise and low dust emissions.

Most track enthusiasts will want to replace their brake pads with a more track-oriented compound. In the stock brakes, this will go a long way to prevent fade (brake fluid is the other). For the performance brakes, it's likely to change brake characteristics (bite, coefficient of friction) significantly, too.

If Tesla's control system can't accommodate this type of change, they're missing the mark, IMO.

 

[Jason_G]

I’m still trying to calm myself down over this clear distinction between the P3D- and P3D+. I have a P3D- on order, an order which took much deliberation to decide on, and now I feel I’ve made a bad call.

My primary use of the car will be for a 60 mile daily commute that is mostly highway. The AWD variant tempted me over the RWD since I felt the RWD was not peppy enough, and I feel like AWD helps residual value since I live in the Midwest. When I was deciding on my order the RWD and AWD had projected delivery dates of 2-4 months out, and the P3D variants were 1-3 months. I’m currently without a car, so the faster projected time helped give me the extra nudge (of course once I pulled the trigger the delivery dates became the same).

I was uneasy with the $10k price jump for the P3D-, but I convinced myself I wanted to go all in and get the most performance (P100D test drive hooked me). I also assumed that I would be paying a healthy premium to be included in potential future perks, such as a Ludicrous mode or the Track Mode. I live in a state that has lacking infrastructure funding, and it seemed that the 20” wheels with lowered suspension was a terrible ideal. The P3D- seemed like the Goldilock solution for me that would give me the acceleration I wanted without sacrificing comfort for my commute.

I didn’t consider for once that I would need the P3D+ to be included in any new goodies to be unlocked in the car. Now that it’s clear I was wrong, I’m left feeling like the P3D- is the worst relative value to the other variants. I feel the used market is going to place a much higher value on P3D+ if it gets special features like Track Mode and/or a Ludicrous equivalent mode. I see little to no compelling reason to pay a significant amount over the AWD for the P3D-.

At the end of the day, I guess I’ll suck it up. My wife won’t entertain any more discussion on this car, and I can’t risk impacting my vehicle delivery date.

I worry this will taint what should be an exciting moment when I do finally receive the car.

 

[Daniel in SD]

When someone was trying to figure out what brakes Tesla was using they found the brakes had a special feature to help with traction control or limited slip or something similar. And that feature is rather unique. If they're using that feature (which they probably are or they would have gotten different calipers), then it makes sense that you'd need to have PUP to get Track Mode. Also, it seems like they would have know that long long ago and could have mentioned it when they mentioned the potential Track Mode in the first place.

Brake based limited slip differential is very common. I would guess that all manufacuturers have implemented it. It does overheat the brakes in track conditions so I wouldn’t be surprised if bigger brakes were required. Another disadvantage if you’re using the brakes while accelerating you’re throwing away power.
Other manufacturers use mechanical or electronically controlled limited slip differentials in their high performance models. It will be interesting to see how well Tesla’s system works.

 

[Amp3d]

The size of the brakes is a factor, but not even the primary factor in brake fade. I'd be willing to bet that even Tesla's upgraded brakes will be subject to fade on certain tracks. Street pads are not designed for track use - they're tuned more for low noise and low dust emissions.

Most track enthusiasts will want to replace their brake pads with a more track-oriented compound. In the stock brakes, this will go a long way to prevent fade (brake fluid is the other). For the performance brakes, it's likely to change brake characteristics (bite, coefficient of friction) significantly, too.

If Tesla's control system can't accommodate this type of change, they're missing the mark, IMO.

I agree with all of that. Cooling is a huge factor as well. As I believe you alluded to previously, the impact of things like pad changes are easily measured in real time (x pressure applied, wheel slowed y amount) and any competent system can use that feedback loop to adjust accordingly within certain predictable ranges. The gain on those controls has to be dynamic or even normal wear would cause issues.

And you are absolutely right that even the upgraded brakes will be subject to fade. I’ve never seen a setup that was truly immune to fade and I’m currently unconvinced that the PUP are anything particularly special in that regard.

 

[Perry]

I’m still trying to calm myself down over this clear distinction between the P3D- and P3D+. I have a P3D- on order, an order which took much deliberation to decide on, and now I feel I’ve made a bad call.

My primary use of the car will be for a 60 mile daily commute that is mostly highway. The AWD variant tempted me over the RWD since I felt the RWD was not peppy enough, and I feel like AWD helps residual value since I live in the Midwest. When I was deciding on my order the RWD and AWD had projected delivery dates of 2-4 months out, and the P3D variants were 1-3 months. I’m currently without a car, so the faster projected time helped give me the extra nudge (of course once I pulled the trigger the delivery dates became the same).

I was uneasy with the $10k price jump for the P3D-, but I convinced myself I wanted to go all in and get the most performance (P100D test drive hooked me). I also assumed that I would be paying a healthy premium to be included in potential future perks, such as a Ludicrous mode or the Track Mode. I live in a state that has lacking infrastructure funding, and it seemed that the 20” wheels with lowered suspension was a terrible ideal. The P3D- seemed like the Goldilock solution for me that would give me the acceleration I wanted without sacrificing comfort for my commute.

I didn’t consider for once that I would need the P3D+ to be included in any new goodies to be unlocked in the car. Now that it’s clear I was wrong, I’m left feeling like the P3D- is the worst relative value to the other variants. I feel the used market is going to place a much higher value on P3D+ if it gets special features like Track Mode and/or a Ludicrous equivalent mode. I see little to no compelling reason to pay a significant amount over the AWD for the P3D-.

At the end of the day, I guess I’ll suck it up. My wife won’t entertain any more discussion on this car, and I can’t risk impacting my vehicle delivery date.

I worry this will taint what should be an exciting moment when I do finally receive the car.

You are describing the exact thinking process I went through and came to same conclusion. At least there is promise of an aftermarket device that will provide some of this stuff like disabling some of the nanny features. I hate relying on Tesla for stuff since they are so unpredictable. In a way they have some of the same bad qualities that Apple has: a closed system, unfriendly to third parties, they think they know best what you want and not consumer friendly when it comes to options. We should all do a little less begging the all mighty T for bread crumbs and look outside for aftermarket solutions. I believe the Model 3 will become one of the most moded car in history so in time there will be a lot available for it.

 

[Perry]

I agree with all of that. Cooling is a huge factor as well. As I believe you alluded to previously, the impact of things like pad changes are easily measured in real time (x pressure applied, wheel slowed y amount) and any competent system can use that feedback loop to adjust accordingly within certain predictable ranges. The gain on those controls has to be dynamic or even normal wear would cause issues.

And you are absolutely right that even the upgraded brakes will be subject to fade. I’ve never seen a setup that was truly immune to fade and I’m currently unconvinced that the PUP are anything particularly special in that regard.

According to Mountainpass Performance and the tests they've done on the track, the biggest problem with the brakes and brake fade on the Model 3 is the overheating. That's why their replacement big brake rotors are larger (and lighter) than the ones on the P+. According to them that's all you need to eliminate brake fade since the non P+ calipers are good enough and they don't contribute to the fade as long as you have huge rotors to dicipate that heat. That and a higher boiling point brake fluid and pads. All stuff you can do yourself for a potentially better system than the P+. Yet, no track mode for you!!

 

[Sg911]

I’m still trying to calm myself down over this clear distinction between the P3D- and P3D+. I have a P3D- on order, an order which took much deliberation to decide on, and now I feel I’ve made a bad call.

My primary use of the car will be for a 60 mile daily commute that is mostly highway. The AWD variant tempted me over the RWD since I felt the RWD was not peppy enough, and I feel like AWD helps residual value since I live in the Midwest. When I was deciding on my order the RWD and AWD had projected delivery dates of 2-4 months out, and the P3D variants were 1-3 months. I’m currently without a car, so the faster projected time helped give me the extra nudge (of course once I pulled the trigger the delivery dates became the same).

I was uneasy with the $10k price jump for the P3D-, but I convinced myself I wanted to go all in and get the most performance (P100D test drive hooked me). I also assumed that I would be paying a healthy premium to be included in potential future perks, such as a Ludicrous mode or the Track Mode. I live in a state that has lacking infrastructure funding, and it seemed that the 20” wheels with lowered suspension was a terrible ideal. The P3D- seemed like the Goldilock solution for me that would give me the acceleration I wanted without sacrificing comfort for my commute.

I didn’t consider for once that I would need the P3D+ to be included in any new goodies to be unlocked in the car. Now that it’s clear I was wrong, I’m left feeling like the P3D- is the worst relative value to the other variants. I feel the used market is going to place a much higher value on P3D+ if it gets special features like Track Mode and/or a Ludicrous equivalent mode. I see little to no compelling reason to pay a significant amount over the AWD for the P3D-.

At the end of the day, I guess I’ll suck it up. My wife won’t entertain any more discussion on this car, and I can’t risk impacting my vehicle delivery date.

I worry this will taint what should be an exciting moment when I do finally receive the car.

I have a P3D on order for delivery next month. Elon said they are working on a PUP aftermarket option, and as such if a ludicrous mode is released, we still have P cars ... and I feel they would be shooting themselves in the foot to not release to all P owner’s, maybe with a caveat of some aftermarket fee, and then L fee lol

 

[ℬête Noire]

Brake based limited slip differential is very common. I would guess that all manufacuturers have implemented it. It does overheat the brakes in track conditions so I wouldn’t be surprised if bigger brakes were required. Another disadvantage if you’re using the brakes while accelerating you’re throwing away power.
Other manufacturers use mechanical or electronically controlled limited slip differentials in their high performance models. It will be interesting to see how well Tesla’s system works.

Perhaps you read his post the way I did the first time, which I believe is a misreading? I think he's suggesting these particular calipers have a capability that is relatively unique, not that the Model 3 is doing as a concept is overly unique.

I'd like to hear more about this though, @usofrob . Did I read it [the 2nd time] correctly, and if so do you have more details (a link would be great) to expand on this?

 

[Xenoilphobe]

It's been confirmed (as much as can be with Tesla) that it will be. I feel that's why it only comes with the PUP, because those beefier rear brakes play a part in the active torque vectoring that will occur. Tesla keeps referring to it as not disabling traction control, but enhancing it.

The rear brakes are the same on the complete Tesla line..

See dialog here

Group Buy Poll for Mono-Block Forged Alloy Wheels by Titan 7


The Model 3 MPP (aftermarket) big brake kit front:
365mm x 26mm rotor

The Model 3 MPP (aftermarket) Brake Kit rear:
335mm x 20mm

Tesla Model Front: (By the type of Tesla caliper)

Model 3 Standard caliper (320 x 25mm rotor) - Plain color (LR and Dual Motor)
Model 3 Performance + caliper (355 x 25mm rotor) - Red color (Performance +)
Model S caliper (355 x 32mm rotor) - Palin or red color (Sports)

Tesla All Rear:
335 x 20mm caliper for all sub-models except the caliper cover/color.

Source: https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf#page=142

 

[Jason_G]

You are describing the exact thinking process I went through and came to same conclusion. At least there is promise of an aftermarket device that will provide some of this stuff like disabling some of the nanny features. I hate relying on Tesla for stuff since they are so unpredictable. In a way they have some of the same bad qualities that Apple has: a closed system, unfriendly to third parties, they think they know best what you want and not consumer friendly when it comes to options. We should all do a little less begging the all mighty T for bread crumbs and look outside for aftermarket solutions. I believe the Model 3 will become one of the most moded car in history so in time there will be a lot available for it.

Thanks for the validation, at least we are not alone. At the end of the day, I’m buying this car with the intention of keeping it a long time, hopefully with the passage of time I won’t obsess over this anymore (I’ll be livid the day P3D+ owners get free ludicrous mode and I get buyers-remorse-mode).

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I'm gonna quote my own post again because this is clearly what has happened. The original intent was to have one P model with all the stuff. People got mad at the price so then Elon tweeted and all of a sudden the whole Tesla workforce had to scramble and figure out pricing for a P model without all the stuff. Track mode wasn't even a thing yet, so it wasn't listed on the upgrade package. People were gonna complain about range loss so they put 235 tires on the P model. They needed huge rear brakes for track mode so they put 20" wheels on it. They're trying to please everyone and in the end have pissed everyone off. But once again, the first model rolled off the assembly line two months ago and in that time it seems a whole confluence of forces have been acting to destroy the company. I really hope they can figure out how to smooth this over but the reality is this happened because they were trying to smooth other stuff over.

rear rotors are all the same on EVERY Tesla, which is why the smallest wheel for an S is 19 inch. The rear caliper might be different on the P3D+ vs P3D-, LRD, SRD, LR and SR

Group Buy Poll for Mono-Block Forged Alloy Wheels by Titan 7

 

[SD_Engnr]

rear rotors are all the same on EVERY Tesla

Group Buy Poll for Mono-Block Forged Alloy Wheels by Titan 7

But they're not. The rotor diameter is the same, but there's a difference in the rotor hat on the performance upgrade package.

Does anyone here with the standard rear brakes have any pictures that can be shared so we can compare the rear calipers?

 

[Xenoilphobe]

#3 and #4 applies to me. I stretched my budget significantly to get the P3D- (with FSD). While the extra $5k is within the realm of affordability, I wanted to give myself breathing room so I'm not house and car poor (I'm 31, so I don't have as much savings as others maybe..).

The range issue is a bigger aspect as this car will be road trip car with my dream to visit all the US national parks as I've basically never driven outside of California except for Vegas. I don't want to lose the range because I really do want to travel (I never did it before because gas/carbon footprint yada yada etc.). On the plus side, free supercharging means it doesn't really matter in terms of cost but in terms of how many stops I need to make.



I'll summarized the impact of this to P3D- owners everywhere:

• If you were planning on tracking this, with your own upgrades. This simply sucks and no way around it not sucking.
• If you would've gotten PUP, but was stretched on $$$, well....racing car is still expensive so you just saved some more $$$ lol
• If you're worried about the extra regen, the PUP range loss will never be made up by the extra regen you could get with track mode.

As for me:

1. I like the rice from the PUP and extra performance from it.
2. Range loss from PUP (~40 miles). I can always add ranged wheels when money allows but I can't add the PUP later easily.
3. Track mode is really not that important to me but just one of those "fun" things I could use.
4. Future upgrade limit: Ludicrous and beyond, Tesla may limit track mode to P3D+, but not necessarily future upgrades. Still take a risk base on MXWing's Game theory decision tree. Reasonably high chance we might not get the option if this is a sign.
5. Resale value: While I don't plan on reselling if I ever did, P3D- models will depreciate much more rapidly than P3D+ models because of the perceive loss of value of extra updates.

To defend Tesla's decision to limit track mode to P3D+, this guy cooked his stock brakes and rotors after 8 laps at Laguna Seca and got Tesla to replace them. I think Tesla has a real fear that poorly informed P3D- would do the same with track mode.

i

There's tons of knowledgeable people like @Xenoilphobe who stopped shouting endlessly and pointlessly once they got past their initial rage. He could be right to the ends of the earth and so could you.

If Tesla says Track Mode requires X. It requires X. No amount of justification on your part is going to change that.

It is what it is. You are lucky to not have taken car delivery and can still do something about it. Don't delay to where you gt a VIN assigned and compound your problem.

Pay the $5,000 or go to AWD, or buy a BMW.

Sounds mean but I'm helping to manage expectations for you. Think about what is important to you and deal with facts and not emotion.

actually i have decided not to get a 3, until they sort this out..