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Tracking P85D delivery thread

Denarius

Active Member
Apr 27, 2013
1,378
84
Utah
Why doesn't ICE hp = EV hp? You mean because the area under the torque "curve" is so much greater?

Regardless of whether the Tesla's hp numbers can be usefully compared to an ICE vehicle (I actually think they can), what confuses/bothers me is trying to compare one Tesla to another.

When the Model S debuted, you had different power figures for the 60, 85, and P85--which appeared to reflect reality, at least from the performance measures I've seen.

Now, the 60 and 85 are rated as having the same output. Since the 60 is a couple of hundred pounds lighter, it should be faster, right? But presumably it's not, because (again presumably)* the 85 and 60 really *don't* have the same power output, since the 85's pack has a higher voltage than the 60's.

If you are deep in the weeds on EV tech, you may understand this; you may even think it's as obvious as the nose on your face. But for someone not steeped in the ins and outs of EV engineering, when the spec sheet says Car A has 380 hp and Car B also has 380 hp, they are quite reasonably going to assume they have the same power.

I suppose you can say, well, who cares how much power either car makes so long as they perform? But that argument proves too much; you might as well just get rid of spec sheets entirely at that point.


__________

*I'm assuming, as most people seem to, that Tesla didn't make an actual engineering change that leveled the real world output of the 60 and 85. Maybe they did.

With the first battery swapping station coming soon perhaps Tesla started listing the potential because if you put the 85kWh battery in a 60 your performance will improve.
 
Why doesn't ICE hp = EV hp? You mean because the area under the torque "curve" is so much greater?

Regardless of whether the Tesla's hp numbers can be usefully compared to an ICE vehicle (I actually think they can), what confuses/bothers me is trying to compare one Tesla to another.

When the Model S debuted, you had different power figures for the 60, 85, and P85--which appeared to reflect reality, at least from the performance measures I've seen.

Now, the 60 and 85 are rated as having the same output. Since the 60 is a couple of hundred pounds lighter, it should be faster, right? But presumably it's not, because (again presumably)* the 85 and 60 really *don't* have the same power output, since the 85's pack has a higher voltage than the 60's.

If you are deep in the weeds on EV tech, you may understand this; you may even think it's as obvious as the nose on your face. But for someone not steeped in the ins and outs of EV engineering, when the spec sheet says Car A has 380 hp and Car B also has 380 hp, they are quite reasonably going to assume they have the same power.

I suppose you can say, well, who cares how much power either car makes so long as they perform? But that argument proves too much; you might as well just get rid of spec sheets entirely at that point.


__________

*I'm assuming, as most people seem to, that Tesla didn't make an actual engineering change that leveled the real world output of the 60 and 85. Maybe they did.

Which is why we should ask those who either have received delivery on their d or test drove what the max kw output they saw on the dashboard. For me...today...it was around 440kw at about 50% battery charge=about 590hp. If anyone can uplay a screenshot or ideally video of a d launch it would be helpful...ideally at 100% charge
 

JST

Active Member
May 23, 2013
1,560
228
Which is why we should ask those who either have received delivery on their d or test drove what the max kw output they saw on the dashboard. For me...today...it was around 440kw at about 50% battery charge=about 590hp. If anyone can uplay a screenshot or ideally video of a d launch it would be helpful...ideally at 100% charge

That's a good idea, but what would be even more illuminating is to see whether the max kW output for either the S85 or S60 has changed.

Honestly, this is one of those things where I feel like people give Tesla a pass just because Tesla.

Imagine this hypo: tomorrow, GM changes the hp rating on the Corvette Stingray from 460 hp to 650 hp.

You say, wow, what did GM do to give it such a big power boost?
And GM replies, well, that's what that engine would be capable of with a supercharger.
And you say, but does it come with a supercharger? And GM says no, not the Stingray. But the Z06 does. And you say, how much power does the Z06 make? And GM says, 650.
And you say, perfect. So can I get a supercharger in my Stingray?
And GM says, nope. Can't get one. Have to get the Z06 for that.
And you say, uh...ok. But how much power does the engine make *in the the Stingray,* where it doesn't have a supercharger?
And GM says, 650. If it had a supercharger.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
440kW would be around 1400-1500 amps at 50% SoC... which is probably about right. I doubt it could go much higher at that SoC. The kW draw is limited by the SoC for sure since the lower the SoC the more amps it will want for the same power, which is probably less noticeable on other models. Max draw of 320kW on a P85 at 20% SoC for example is only around 1000 amps (which is roughly the amperage max on the P85 IIRC)

Keep in mind we have 14,208 cell level fuses to worry about also. If one of those goes you lose 1.3% pack capacity immediately. So, it is best that the amperage remain as low as possible within the limits of those hair-sized fuses. I think 1500 amps is definitely pushing it because that means each one of those fuses is handling 20 amps!

I expect around a full charge (80-100%) we'll see over 500kW.

Edit: I should be getting some additional battery modules that I plan on breaking down into individual cells eventually. I plan on testing the current capacity of the cell level fuses at that point since this has been a point of interest for me.
 
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Hi. sorry for confusion. Let me clarify.
during my test drive when i accelerated the orange bar that goes up on the dashboard right near where it displays speed only maxed at 440. I'm wondering if you're seeing the same thing. 440 is significantly less than the 515 tesla claims which equals 691hp. I was in insane mode...batter 1/2 full. I'm wondering if you're seeing the same and if you are able to achieve 515 when 90% charged. Thanks

Typically test drive and loaner vehicles are top speed and acceleration limited via the software, from my experience at least.
 

aronth5

Long Time Follower
Supporting Member
May 8, 2010
3,067
2,515
Boston Suburb
car has been delivered - it's awesome - super fast - handles good - good brakes - very refined vs. my 2013 P85

initial impressions having driving a P85 for 26,000 miles

1. steering is ever so slightly heavier feeling - not adustable any more
2. the acceleration is "Insane" - it's awesome
3. car handles like a dream
4. Battery was a "E" version battery
5. VIN is a 2014 model year
6. The standard seats that are my temporary interior are better than the performance sport seats from my 2013 P85
7. speed limit sign reading works pretty well - nice display on the dash
8. the frunk is quite a bit smaller than you would expect -more space gone than just the microwave cubby
9. the car is responsive, fast, and comfortable, ever so slightly more stiff for the ride quality
10. car came with Michelin Pilot Sports - 265's on the back and 245's on the front
11. sun visors are better
12. charger port can be opened manually now - and open closed via controls inside the car
13. rear deck lid opens and closes more quietly
14. parking distance is pretty good nice subtle display

overall it's an awesome sedan -anyone receiving one will be very very happy - just take delivery with the normal seats and let Tesla install the new seats when they get them.

I would be interested once someone has a look at the bottom if access and replacing the front motor will be roughly comparable to the rear engine. I've always been impressed at the short amount of time it takes a service center to swap out a rear engine. The pictures on Tesla's web site makes it difficult to determine if access is just as easy as the rear motor. And hopefully nobody needs a motor replaced for a long long time!
 
Ours is still production even though it was born first?!!! Ok I had a quick temper tantrum and now feel better. With luck ours is on the truck as well. It is terrific to know that Chicago deliveries are starting.
I would have had a temper tantrum, too. I have a feeling you and the others who have been waiting longer are going to start to see your cars finished and shipping soon. Sending you all the positive energy I can that it is on the same truck to Chicago! Keeping my fingers crossed for you.
 
car has been delivered - it's awesome - super fast - handles good - good brakes - very refined vs. my 2013 P85

initial impressions having driving a P85 for 26,000 miles

1. steering is ever so slightly heavier feeling - not adustable any more
2. the acceleration is "Insane" - it's awesome
3. car handles like a dream
4. Battery was a "E" version battery
5. VIN is a 2014 model year
6. The standard seats that are my temporary interior are better than the performance sport seats from my 2013 P85
7. speed limit sign reading works pretty well - nice display on the dash
8. the frunk is quite a bit smaller than you would expect -more space gone than just the microwave cubby
9. the car is responsive, fast, and comfortable, ever so slightly more stiff for the ride quality
10. car came with Michelin Pilot Sports - 265's on the back and 245's on the front
11. sun visors are better
12. charger port can be opened manually now - and open closed via controls inside the car
13. rear deck lid opens and closes more quietly
14. parking distance is pretty good nice subtle display

overall it's an awesome sedan -anyone receiving one will be very very happy - just take delivery with the normal seats and let Tesla install the new seats when they get them.


some updates

15. turning radius seems the same as previous Model S's - at least it seems no better/worse than my P85
16. The wife prefers "sport" mode to "insane" mode.
17. the mirrors power fold
18. Stereo sounds good
19. plant your head against the headrests if you're going to accelerate hard
20. the charger port flap can be opened by hand
21. the auto close feature is cool.
 
440kW would be around 1400-1500 amps at 50% SoC... which is probably about right. I doubt it could go much higher at that SoC. The kW draw is limited by the SoC for sure since the lower the SoC the more amps it will want for the same power, which is probably less noticeable on other models. Max draw of 320kW on a P85 at 20% SoC for example is only around 1000 amps (which is roughly the amperage max on the P85 IIRC)

Keep in mind we have 14,208 cell level fuses to worry about also. If one of those goes you lose 1.3% pack capacity immediately. So, it is best that the amperage remain as low as possible within the limits of those hair-sized fuses. I think 1500 amps is definitely pushing it because that means each one of those fuses is handling 20 amps!

I expect around a full charge (80-100%) we'll see over 500kW.

Edit: I should be getting some additional battery modules that I plan on breaking down into individual cells eventually. I plan on testing the current capacity of the cell level fuses at that point since this has been a point of interest for me.

Aren't we running at 400 volts always so 440kw = 1,100 amps vs 1400-1500?
 
I have only one brief test drive in an P85+ but from my 6 years experience with my Roadster I still want much more region force. I frequently have to use the friction brakes in normal driving. It would be much nicer if the regen was 50-100% stronger, especially at low speeds. We are so close to being able to drive with one foot that it's frustrating. I was told way back before I got my Roadster that the reason (or a reason?) that it doesn't have more region is that too much on the rear wheels only would be a safety issue. But of course this is not a problem with the P85D. How about doubling the regen force in "Insane" mode?

I agree, greater control over regen would be a really nice upgrade.

Mercedes has paddles, which I really like. VW you can toggle different levels via shifter, almost as nice.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
Aren't we running at 400 volts always so 440kw = 1,100 amps vs 1400-1500?

At 100% charge the pack rests at between 398.4V and 403.2V. (I haven't been able to confirm which it is, but it is in that range)
At 0% charge it sits right around 300V, +/- 10V depending on the ant-bricking buffer that I haven't been able to confirm an exact voltage for.

The discharge curve is not linear, however. It will not stay near 400V for long, generally down to 380V by 85%, nominal voltage of 355.2 by 65-70% or so and stay near there only dropping a few tens of mV per % SoC until about 325-330V then a steep drop towards 300V in the last 0-20% ish.

But then you have to take voltage sag into account under that kind of load. At 440kW that is over a 5C discharge rate and those cells will sag into the 350-360V range.

I'll note that these numbers are off the top of my head for the most part and aren't 100% accurate, but are pretty close and give a decent idea on whats going on.
 
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