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Except he's required to disclose any material knowledge that he has that would effect the value of the vehicle and if he doesn't, the previous owner is likely to find out from Tesla.
But in this case Tesla already knew about it. Why? Because the shop needing parts had to tell Tesla in order to get those parts.
Well, I am not sure what he knows is material, especially if the Car Fax is still clean. He knows Tesla told him it was in an accident, then backed off that statement and said it had work done that may or may not be accident related.
Thanks for allowing me to vent guys and gals.
I happen to work in the automotive valuation industry, I know the car is worth more and will definitely go private party if I decide to end up selling it. I was just completely shocked at the value. I know they aren't in the used car business, but the used Tesla business? They've got the monopoly on that one
Also, @Gizmotoy , You are (maybe?) correct. I got the following response to the question "wtf accident are you talking about?"
Which further pissed me off because he specifically said this in the first email
Sigh...
$27K isn't all that unreasonable. Tesla offers a 50% guarantee buyback after three years for the base price and I believe 40% for options. At $92K original, probably a $60 base, means $30 for the base price plus 40% of the remaining $32K = another $12,800 for a total of $42,800 if you had only 36,000 miles (12,000 per year). They charge 25 cents per mile on the guarantee buyback program for every mile over 12,000 per year. You are 50,000 miles over. That's another loss of $12,500. Bringing you down to $30,300. They generally reduce their offer on trade-ins by 6 to 10% for conditioning and prep of the vehicle to resell, so that's another $3,000 down to $27,300. Pretty much a spot on valuation. Dealer trade-ins are never going to be high. They are in business to profit. Plus any 86,000 mile car is much tough to sell.
Not to completely call you out, but how do twin charging, air suspension, and supercharging (and even 85kw if you classified it as an option) = 30K in options?
But yes, otherwise equation checks out. I did this before I purchased the car, as the previous owners were considering doing the buyback and I offered slightly above 50% buyback at the time.
I have a message out to my service guy who I've worked with a bit in the past to find out why this never came up in the 2 DU swaps I had while the car was in and out of the shop. I'll see what he says.
Overall, getting a carfax now is moot, $40 to what? Find out it actually was in an accident and reported later? That doesn't resolve anything for me.
In the end, I'll drive the car like I said I would when I bought it... "till it dies"
Overall, getting a carfax now is moot, $40 to what? Find out it actually was in an accident and reported later? That doesn't resolve anything for me.
In the end, I'll drive the car like I said I would when I bought it... "till it dies"
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Actually dealerships are not a solution to those concerns, but rather "right to repair" laws. A dealership would still charge expensive service and the manufacturer is still allowed to limit tool/parts availability to dealerships. "Right to repair" was designed to address this (allow 100% independent shops access to same tools and parts as dealerships). All a dealership adds is another middle man to the new car transaction.
The used car market Tesla actually doesn't have much direct control over: you can sell private party, to a third party dealer, or to a Tesla store. Same options as any other car.
Ah, if you are going to keep it, then, yeah, no need to pull the car fax.
If you were going to try and get appraisals from other places, it might be worth knowing if the accident it there or not (it might be clean, Tesla may be the only one who knows anything). Also, there is a rare possibility it has an accident reported that is incorrect (if an accident was reported during your ownership period, for example). Then you might be able to have the record corrected.
Sir Guacamolaf
The good kind of fat
Well, the "right to repair" law would be the appropriate way to fix things. But we don't have that or have that enforced well enough. So in absence of that, you'll see dealerships rise which I agree is not a great solution. In fact it makes things worse. So Tesla needs to embrace the third party repair market, and actively encourage it. Right now, they are doing the exact reverse. They are being the Apple of the car industry where you must buy an overpriced lightning cable from Apple, until someone reverse engineers .. reverse engineering . which won't happen in the Tesla world in a hurry.
Also, Tesla has a bigger influence on used Tesla pricing than any other manufacturer for many reasons. It's not like other car manufacturers. This very thread is testament to that greater influence. Do you think a Honda or a Mercedes would have run into this issue where only the manufacturer knew of the vehicle history, and not even carfax knew? I don't think so.
Rmsosu
Member
carfax reports are woefully unreliable. I just ordered an S. Tried to trade my BMW in and received a very low ball figure. Went through Auto Trader and received a number 4K greater and sold it the next day to a Honda dealer.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Actually I don't think so, I know so. Lemon law cases are a common example where a manufacturer knows of the entire vehicle history but carfax doesn't:
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/how-carfax-doesnt-protect-you-from-buying-a-used-lemon-1653942445
That's why people say Carfaxes can't be 100% relied on. There are too many ways for problems to go unreported.
Sir Guacamolaf
The good kind of fat
Sorry but I disagree, but perhaps I am not explaining myself well enough.
My original point was, Tesla controls the used car pricing market. This is for two reasons,
Reason #1 -
The CPO program, Tesla also gets to dictate what you and I can charge for our used cars. Tesla being a buyer/seller of major momentum in this limited market, can price a car at say 50K. That pretty much means I have to sell a comparable car for < 50K. Other manufacturers have CPO programs too, but the percentage of used Honda sales on CPO vs craigslist is vastly different than Tesla's.
And this ratio is guaranteed to remain skewed in favor of Tesla, given that only Tesla can offer a warranty on a Tesla, and Tesla refuses to sell the second owner any sort of warranty. Paired with the fact that only Tesla can repair Tesla's which greatly increases the value of the warranty, and is generally reflected in the private party sale of an out of warranty car (that you cannot buy warranty for).
Reason #2 -
You said .. "Where a manufacturer knows of the entire vehicle history but carfax doesn't:" ..
That is where the issue lies. The instances where Tesla knows the vehicle history are an order of magnitude higher than say Honda.
Tesla has a much higher chance of knowing the vehicle history than other manufacturers do. In fact, Tesla has a 100% chance of knowing. This is because only Tesla sells Tesla parts, and Tesla has a computer wired into every car, connected over cellular always on internet. Tesla knows every single time you didn't brake but autopilot did, the level of control and information is at a much higher scale than any other time in history of car manufacturing.
This allows them much deeper insight into the vehicle than any other manufacturer. I can hide a Honda repair from Honda motor company much easier than I can hide a Tesla repair from Tesla. This means, I have zero chances of the Honda knowing of a repair that carfax didn't reflect, and zero chances of Tesla not knowing even if carfax doesn't know.
Tesla uses this additional data to their advantage, like pricing the OPs car at $27K, ... because ... they have the advantage of additional information about your car that other manufacturers don't, and therefore they can control the price of your sale.
.. long story short .. Elon Musk is a genius, he is controlling the entire supply chain and picking your pocket at every single step. Buying the car is literally an entry into this bar where every single drink and snack is overpriced, and the price to exit is also under their control. This is not a new concept, Apple does this, so does Microsoft. But only Tesla does this in the car market.
My original point was, Tesla controls the used car pricing market. This is for two reasons,
Reason #1 -
The CPO program, Tesla also gets to dictate what you and I can charge for our used cars. Tesla being a buyer/seller of major momentum in this limited market, can price a car at say 50K. That pretty much means I have to sell a comparable car for < 50K. Other manufacturers have CPO programs too, but the percentage of used Honda sales on CPO vs craigslist is vastly different than Tesla's.
And this ratio is guaranteed to remain skewed in favor of Tesla, given that only Tesla can offer a warranty on a Tesla, and Tesla refuses to sell the second owner any sort of warranty. Paired with the fact that only Tesla can repair Tesla's which greatly increases the value of the warranty, and is generally reflected in the private party sale of an out of warranty car (that you cannot buy warranty for).
Reason #2 -
You said .. "Where a manufacturer knows of the entire vehicle history but carfax doesn't:" ..
That is where the issue lies. The instances where Tesla knows the vehicle history are an order of magnitude higher than say Honda.
Tesla has a much higher chance of knowing the vehicle history than other manufacturers do. In fact, Tesla has a 100% chance of knowing. This is because only Tesla sells Tesla parts, and Tesla has a computer wired into every car, connected over cellular always on internet. Tesla knows every single time you didn't brake but autopilot did, the level of control and information is at a much higher scale than any other time in history of car manufacturing.
This allows them much deeper insight into the vehicle than any other manufacturer. I can hide a Honda repair from Honda motor company much easier than I can hide a Tesla repair from Tesla. This means, I have zero chances of the Honda knowing of a repair that carfax didn't reflect, and zero chances of Tesla not knowing even if carfax doesn't know.
Tesla uses this additional data to their advantage, like pricing the OPs car at $27K, ... because ... they have the advantage of additional information about your car that other manufacturers don't, and therefore they can control the price of your sale.
.. long story short .. Elon Musk is a genius, he is controlling the entire supply chain and picking your pocket at every single step. Buying the car is literally an entry into this bar where every single drink and snack is overpriced, and the price to exit is also under their control. This is not a new concept, Apple does this, so does Microsoft. But only Tesla does this in the car market.
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randy1077
Model X60->75 Vin 180XX. Model 3 Vin 074XX
Manheim (Dealer auction site) says you should get $39,300 at auction at 86,000 miles.
Recent Sales for 2013 Model S
08/11/16 Manheim Riverside Regular $51,500 20,162 Above GRAY EL A Yes
08/10/16 Manheim New Jersey Lease $45,500 38,477 Avg RED EL A Yes
07/21/16 Manheim Palm Beach Regular $51,200 15,786 Avg BLUE EL A Yes
07/20/16 Manheim San Francisco Bay Lease $42,500 66,524 Below WHITE EL A Yes
07/20/16 Manheim San Francisco Bay Lease $35,000 61,283 Below BLUE MET EL A No
07/14/16 Manheim Riverside Lease $45,000 53,243 Avg BLACK EL A Yes
Recent Sales for 2013 Model S
08/11/16 Manheim Riverside Regular $51,500 20,162 Above GRAY EL A Yes
08/10/16 Manheim New Jersey Lease $45,500 38,477 Avg RED EL A Yes
07/21/16 Manheim Palm Beach Regular $51,200 15,786 Avg BLUE EL A Yes
07/20/16 Manheim San Francisco Bay Lease $42,500 66,524 Below WHITE EL A Yes
07/20/16 Manheim San Francisco Bay Lease $35,000 61,283 Below BLUE MET EL A No
07/14/16 Manheim Riverside Lease $45,000 53,243 Avg BLACK EL A Yes
Haha thanks Randy! I actually work for Manheim's parent company, which may explain my shock in Tesla's valuation process
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
My point was that this happens for other manufacturers also (my link shows specific examples) and the chance is definitely not zero as you were implying (but rather considerably higher).
For the ratio of CPO to craigslist, that will vary depending on vehicle type (a high end Mercedes will have a much different ratio than a low end Honda). Plus a lot of it will have to do with Tesla being a new manufacturer and little to do with whether Tesla uses dealerships or has greater influence over used vehicles.
There is no evidence as to your point that other manufacturers don't have similar capabilities for knowing service history. For example, Onstar has the same remote diagnostics capability and has had it far longer than Tesla's system. Other examples for similar systems: FCA Uconnect, Ford Sync, Hyundai Blue Link, Mercedes COMAND, etc (don't have the time to list and find all of them).
Mercedes had a centralized digital service record since before they even came out with an in-vehicle internet connected system:
Mercedes service history goes all digital
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