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That's where I come in with my concerns.
1. QC is a BIG issue.
(...)
2. Service is appalling
(...)
3. Tesla is NOT customer centric
We had a very intelligent poster "neroden" on TMC that was uber bullish except on the points you mention.

He got frustrated with the TMC crowd forgiving Tesla's service and quality control due to fanboyism, to the point where he (allegedly) sold his stock and quit TMC. The last couple of days on here he was raging about it quite heavily.

Just to say, you're not the first and you're not the last to mention these points. He however sold just before the huge rally from october 2019 to june 2020 so his decision was costly.

Regarding QC and service, I believe these items will be fixed sooner rather than later. Also Tesla has enough cash on hand to improve upon these points.

Also you must remember these stories are anecdotal, i.e. for every complaint you read on the interwebs there are tens or even hundreds of satisfied customers not posting anything because there is no reason to. What you read online is always skewed towards "the crowd willing to post". It is why Twitter and Youtube comments are mostly worthless, since the profile of people posting on there regularly is very specific and mostly excludes highly succesful people. (TMC is another matter IMO, but also here there are of course bad apples).

I believe Tesla is very customer centric though, in another manner than traditional OEMs. (adding features asked for on Twitter, being able to order online, ...)

You just don't have the suck-up-car-salesman, which I find positive, not negative.

To sum up: I'm not worried as much as you are. Try and get a question regarding the service network or the QC through on the next Conference call (for example by contacting Rob Mauer, his questions get asked everytime). This might ease your nerves.
 
In other news....

Some time ago I ranted on another thread about Musk's $5B slush fund, which I believed was taken to manipulate and flatten the share price after having been dissed by the S&P.
My reasoning was that rejection was due to the volatility of the stock and institutional managers' unwillingness to buy at inflated value. A deal was worked out whereas if Tsla could manage to control the share price within a tight bracket for x number of months to allow them to buy at a consistent price, they would revisit the inclusion.
I vociferiously complained that proof of my accusation has been Tsla share price constrained to a 410-430 range for the last months and I projected that Tesla would join the S&P before year end as a reward/consequence.
Of course at the time I was ridiculed by TMC's cheerleader squad. With no proof and no reputation, I was nothing but a delusional short seller.
Tonight's announcement is a vindication. I realize my assertion is without proof, but I would not be surprised if that $5B has been diluted by now.
The good news is the share price will once again be free to swing and should spike on the inclusion, probably well beyond 500. That is, until traders realize that S&P institutional investors have already bought their required % of shares. At that point price will tank, maybe sub 400 before recovering to around 450, but again free to swing.
 
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S&P induction is having the predicted effect of taking the stock price to new highs. It is time to rejoice, at least until the whiplash. Because we all know that the price will drop back, do we not? I call it 500, maybe lower but no lower than 450, before the end of the year.

For those who continue to believe that Tesla has no competition, read this:

Volkswagen’s ID.3 hatch blew by both Tesla and Renault to become the best selling electric car (EV) in Europe in October. It even surged to become the best selling car overall in Norway, The Netherlands and Ireland, taking more than 19 percent overall market share in Norway. While Renault’s Zoe h...

View the article.
Volkswagen’s ID.3 Leapfrogs Tesla, Renault In October European EV Sales Charts
 
S&P induction is having the predicted effect of taking the stock price to new highs. It is time to rejoice, at least until the whiplash. Because we all know that the price will drop back, do we not? I call it 500, maybe lower but no lower than 450, before the end of the year.

For those who continue to believe that Tesla has no competition, read this:

Volkswagen’s ID.3 hatch blew by both Tesla and Renault to become the best selling electric car (EV) in Europe in October. It even surged to become the best selling car overall in Norway, The Netherlands and Ireland, taking more than 19 percent overall market share in Norway. While Renault’s Zoe h...

View the article.
Volkswagen’s ID.3 Leapfrogs Tesla, Renault In October European EV Sales Charts
If you don't understand the outselling of the model 3 by certain models like the ID.3 is due to the fact that there is not enough Model 3 dupply in Europe yet, then you shouldn't be investing.

This is the Gordo argument of cherry picking sales data.

We'll talk after GF Berlin ramps up.
 
In other news....

Some time ago I ranted on another thread about Musk's $5B slush fund, which I believed was taken to manipulate and flatten the share price after having been dissed by the S&P.
My reasoning was that rejection was due to the volatility of the stock and institutional managers' unwillingness to buy at inflated value. A deal was worked out whereas if Tsla could manage to control the share price within a tight bracket for x number of months to allow them to buy at a consistent price, they would revisit the inclusion.
I vociferiously complained that proof of my accusation has been Tsla share price constrained to a 410-430 range for the last months and I projected that Tesla would join the S&P before year end as a reward/consequence.
Of course at the time I was ridiculed by TMC's cheerleader squad. With no proof and no reputation, I was nothing but a delusional short seller.
Tonight's announcement is a vindication. I realize my assertion is without proof, but I would not be surprised if that $5B has been diluted by now.
The good news is the share price will once again be free to swing and should spike on the inclusion, probably well beyond 500. That is, until traders realize that S&P institutional investors have already bought their required % of shares. At that point price will tank, maybe sub 400 before recovering to around 450, but again free to swing.

so there was some secret agreement between the people who run the S&P500 and Elon Musk that wasn't disclosed on the capital raise?

and the proof is that a stock that was at $250 a few months ago ran up to $410-430 for a couple of weeks.

that's your argument? just making sure I can follow it.
 
so there was some secret agreement between the people who run the S&P500 and Elon Musk that wasn't disclosed on the capital raise?

and the proof is that a stock that was at $250 a few months ago ran up to $410-430 for a couple of weeks.

that's your argument? just making sure I can follow it.
Clearly you're having difficulties following arguments. I never brought up how much Tsla was months ago, you did, to make some nonsensical point.
After the split, TSLA dipped significantly, but the share price rallied back to the mid 400s from Sept to mid November, not "a couple of weeks", and pretty much languished there (very unusual for Tsla) until the recent S&P announcement. You can go look at the chart if you'd like.
I wholeheartedly embrace the rally, although I hope we all understand it has nothing to do with anything other than the expected share squeeze due to the required buying from S&P institutionals and those aligned to the S&P. I may very well be wrong, but I suspect there won't be a further ludicrous price climb on D (21st) day because the shares have already been purchased at a reasonable price (mid-400s). Thus, I expect a gastly drop before year end.
You can always come back and make fun of me if I'm wrong; I can take it.
 
We had a very intelligent poster "neroden" on TMC that was uber bullish except on the points you mention.

He got frustrated with the TMC crowd forgiving Tesla's service and quality control due to fanboyism, to the point where he (allegedly) sold his stock and quit TMC. The last couple of days on here he was raging about it quite heavily.

Just to say, you're not the first and you're not the last to mention these points. He however sold just before the huge rally from october 2019 to june 2020 so his decision was costly.

Regarding QC and service, I believe these items will be fixed sooner rather than later. Also Tesla has enough cash on hand to improve upon these points.

Also you must remember these stories are anecdotal, i.e. for every complaint you read on the interwebs there are tens or even hundreds of satisfied customers not posting anything because there is no reason to. What you read online is always skewed towards "the crowd willing to post". It is why Twitter and Youtube comments are mostly worthless, since the profile of people posting on there regularly is very specific and mostly excludes highly succesful people. (TMC is another matter IMO, but also here there are of course bad apples).

I believe Tesla is very customer centric though, in another manner than traditional OEMs. (adding features asked for on Twitter, being able to order online, ...)

You just don't have the suck-up-car-salesman, which I find positive, not negative.

To sum up: I'm not worried as much as you are. Try and get a question regarding the service network or the QC through on the next Conference call (for example by contacting Rob Mauer, his questions get asked everytime). This might ease your nerves.

What is most worrisome is how dismissive Tesla fanboys are about the serious QC issues. It's no longer possible to justify this because "it's a new company"... The same cars have been built for 10 years.
Not everyone owns Tsla shares and will negate anything that could affect the price. I believe in the project, and part of believing is having the confidence that the best product is being built and sold to the paying customers.


U.S. agency opens probe into 115,000 Tesla vehicles over suspension issue

Article: Tesla: Recalls more than 9,500 Model X and Model Y units due to possible roof detachment.
View the article.
Tesla: Recalls more than 9,500 Model X and Model Y units due to possible roof detachment
 
Wow! How a propos was my point above...

Article: Tesla hires head of Mercedes-Benz factory, German union gets weirdly mad about it - Electrek
Tesla hires the former head of a Mercedes-Benz factory near Berlin just after having fired the head of its Gigafactory Berlin project. The local union behind the Daimler factory is getting weirdly mad about it. René Reif was the head of the Mercedes-Benz factory in Marienfelde near Berlin until O...

View the article.
Tesla hires head of Mercedes-Benz factory, German union gets weirdly mad about it - Electrek

And here's a most recent one:

Tesla’s effort to build a new Gigafactory near Berlin has had a few hiccups, but it seems to be going smoothly overall. However, it looks like the automaker might have to battle with IG Metall, a powerful union in Germany. Elon Musk came to Berlin earlier this week and got showered with complimen...

View the article.
Tesla and powerful German union prepare for a fight - Electrek
 
And here's a most recent one:

Tesla’s effort to build a new Gigafactory near Berlin has had a few hiccups, but it seems to be going smoothly overall. However, it looks like the automaker might have to battle with IG Metall, a powerful union in Germany. Elon Musk came to Berlin earlier this week and got showered with complimen...

View the article.
Tesla and powerful German union prepare for a fight - Electrek

And another
Germany's Largest Union Prepares Battle Against Tesla: 'We can endure a long fight'
 
@Stinger63 , regarding your opening post: my issues with Musk are mainly his sometimes doubtful Tweets, doubtful by being either too impulsive ("funding secured") or too war-mongering (Thai cave diver incident).

You dispell these as forgiven, I don't really. Of course the reality is that I have to accept the flaws (which are few) with the strengths (which are many).

That said, the rest of your argument is quite thin and based on either lack of doing enough homework on Tesla, or on ill-intent. That is why some choose to dispel you as a short seller.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, since I agree TMC can sometimes feel like an echo chamber where all is forgiven due to Musk's holy status.

However, to adress some of your points:

- battery day presented amazing tech, just like Autonomy day. That the market doesn't realize this and that the stock price has not soared after these tech reveals is not Tesla's/Elon's fault, but the market's. Also it does not indicate whatsoever the true value of battery day.

- the presentation style of battery day (as you say "wingin' it") is how Tesla presents stuff. We all know this and there is no real need for change in this regard. Why do they present like this? Because 1) Tesla/Elon does not want to waste too much time on just PR. The resultst will speak for themselves. 2) This approach is (or at least seems to be) more truthful and honest than streamlined presentations.

If you're not on board with Tesla's presentation style, you might wanna invest in another stock. It won't change.

- you seem to have concerns regarding PR. Short rebuttal: as long as Tesla sells every vehicle they produce, there is no need for PR. Those "horror stories" you seem to be afraid of are the minority and won't impact future growth much. I hear way more "Tesla is great" stories.

- you state the competition is here. There are other BEV's on the market, yes, but again: as long as Tesla sells every vehicle they make, there is no issue. None.

- I'll play along: what if Tesla by 2022 makes 2 million cars a year and CAN'T sell them all because of competitors? What is the differentiator?

Not the 2 seconds of acceleration, no. Value for money. Tesla has the lead in creating BEV's at low cost, therefore they can just drop margins and take out the competition that scares you so much at any time.

Just today I read an article (on a local website in dutch, won't share) that BMW will name their iNeXt the iX and it will be available in 2022 with "around" 600 km of range per charge. (=375 miles)

By that time, 400 miles on a Tesla costing less will be easy.

So to sum up: why will Tesla keep selling all vehicles produced? :
- low cost; (many reasons)
- best batteries, long cycle life;
- improving FSD;
- supercharge network (this is not 'nothing' as you imply. This is huge. Tesla does not have to give this up for any reason. If they do make it available for other brands you can be sure Tesla will charge X$ per charge/minute/Watt for Tesla vehicles and X +50% or more for non-Tesla vehicles. This way the lines kan be kept free for Tesla's and Tesla earns money off all customers.)


Regarding service, I don't know so I won't talk out of my a$$, but what I do know is that Tesla is ramping their service fleet which also is something unique. Done are the days of having to make an appointment to drive to a service garage once or twice a year just to have your brakes checked and whatnot. I really believe in the mobile service fleet.

Regarding lower insurance, this might turn out to be in favour of Tesla also but again: in this post I just mentioned things we know today.


I am open for further discussion with you if you answer me on this one question:

"Which competing BEV which is currently available generates more demand than Tesla vehicles?"

That's right.

Although I've already replied to your question, here's a recent article about Norway, which will be the first nation to be fully electric by 2025. Their fantastic achievement is a result of strong government intervention and determination to move away from ICE vehicles. You would think that, as the pioneer of EVs, Tesla would be the primary vehicle in that country which doesn't even make cars and thus has no home brand loyalty. That Tesla is not the leader in Norway is a worrisome reality, one that Tesla ought to focus on but I think is not, because Musk doesn't believe in marketing, instead focusing on engineering prowess to sell his vehicles.

Article: Fossils Disappearing in Norway: EV Market Share At 80%, Pioneering The Shift Towards Electric Mobility
View the article.
Fossils Disappearing in Norway: EV Market Share At 80%, Pioneering The Shift Towards Electric Mobility - Vehiclesuggest
 
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Although I've already replied to your question, here's a recent article about Norway, which will be the first nation to be fully electric by 2025. Their fantastic achievement is a result of strong government intervention and determination to move away from ICE vehicles. You would think that, as the pioneer of EVs, Tesla would be the primary vehicle in that country which doesn't even make cars and thus has no home brand loyalty. That Tesla is not the leader in Norway is a worrisome reality, one that Tesla ought to focus on but I think is not, because Musk doesn't believe in marketing, instead focusing on engineering prowess to sell his vehicles.

Article: Fossils Disappearing in Norway: EV Market Share At 80%, Pioneering The Shift Towards Electric Mobility
View the article.
Fossils Disappearing in Norway: EV Market Share At 80%, Pioneering The Shift Towards Electric Mobility - Vehiclesuggest

This is a Gordo type BS article. For example, the author states:

Tesla is struggling in sales in these countries. In November 2020, the sales number for the Californian automaker were astonishingly bad.

With these countries the author is referring to the Netherlands and Norway.

Tesla does very very well in these countries, but the monthly sales figure depends on wether or not a shipment of Model 3's has arrived that month.

This cherrypicking of data is BS.
 
What is most worrisome is how dismissive Tesla fanboys are about the serious QC issues. It's no longer possible to justify this because "it's a new company"... The same cars have been built for 10 years.
Not everyone owns Tsla shares and will negate anything that could affect the price. I believe in the project, and part of believing is having the confidence that the best product is being built and sold to the paying customers.


U.S. agency opens probe into 115,000 Tesla vehicles over suspension issue

Article: Tesla: Recalls more than 9,500 Model X and Model Y units due to possible roof detachment.
View the article.
Tesla: Recalls more than 9,500 Model X and Model Y units due to possible roof detachment

2021 Tesla Model 3: E1 - First Impressions:
 
... I call it 500, maybe lower but no lower than 450, before the end of the year.
Looks like I was wrong about Tsla share price at end of year through end of 01/2021, which has be holding steady within an 820 to 880 bracket. I'm not a short trader and usually laugh off those who are, particularly with Tsla. I paid the price for selling early.
I think the S&P membership has helped control the exuberance of 2020's superb climb. Not sure which I like best, but it is what it is. I sold out of Tsla when it stagnated at 450 for a couple of months and, like a Bay Area favorite story says that once you leave you can't return because it's so expensive, I have been waiting in vain for enough of a drop to get back in.

Musk has recently acknowledged in an interview with Sandy Munro that QC issues are real and tied to the challenges of having to make changes while moving full steam ahead. Yes, those are rather common regardless of the industry one works in, but Tesla is under enormous pressure to make its quarterly numbers and the strategic choice Musk is making is to make the numbers over fixing QC issues. I respect the decision even if I don't agree with it.

2021 promise to be an exciting year with all the factories producing vehicles before the end of the year.
 
Looks like I was wrong about Tsla share price at end of year through end of 01/2021, which has be holding steady within an 820 to 880 bracket. I'm not a short trader and usually laugh off those who are, particularly with Tsla. I paid the price for selling early.
I think the S&P membership has helped control the exuberance of 2020's superb climb. Not sure which I like best, but it is what it is. I sold out of Tsla when it stagnated at 450 for a couple of months and, like a Bay Area favorite story says that once you leave you can't return because it's so expensive, I have been waiting in vain for enough of a drop to get back in.

Musk has recently acknowledged in an interview with Sandy Munro that QC issues are real and tied to the challenges of having to make changes while moving full steam ahead. Yes, those are rather common regardless of the industry one works in, but Tesla is under enormous pressure to make its quarterly numbers and the strategic choice Musk is making is to make the numbers over fixing QC issues. I respect the decision even if I don't agree with it.

2021 promise to be an exciting year with all the factories producing vehicles before the end of the year.
Well, I may have cut myself short on this one, with Tsla suddenly dropping to 670... hard to explain the reasons for the selloff, from Musk buying 1.5B Bitcoins, mouthing off again on Twitter, another terrible report from JD Powers, Porsche talking efuel,... I suppose all these could be the sources of the sour reaction.
Yet, who is selling off? Certainly not Tesla's fan club or the trove of post split retail buyers. We all know that Tesla’s valuation is primarily aspirational, so who could have lost faith? Unless those who sold are S&P funds with more practical interests...

Yesterday I txt a friend, "Tsla at 790, an opportunity or a step to the next big drop". I guess I can ask the same question... Tsla at 670, an opportunity or a step to the next big drop?
 
Well, I may have cut myself short on this one, with Tsla suddenly dropping to 670... hard to explain the reasons for the selloff, from Musk buying 1.5B Bitcoins, mouthing off again on Twitter, another terrible report from JD Powers, Porsche talking efuel,... I suppose all these could be the sources of the sour reaction.
Yet, who is selling off? Certainly not Tesla's fan club or the trove of post split retail buyers. We all know that Tesla’s valuation is primarily aspirational, so who could have lost faith? Unless those who sold are S&P funds with more practical interests...

Yesterday I txt a friend, "Tsla at 790, an opportunity or a step to the next big drop". I guess I can ask the same question... Tsla at 670, an opportunity or a step to the next big drop?
I write this as the share price is further dropping, now at 642. I imagine a lot of retail stockholders are glued to their favorite YouTube talking heads, looking for any sign of confidence or uncertainty to help them make another emotional decision. I can't wait to see our righteous early retail buyers, now millionaires, put their mouth where their money is, in Tesla shares. It's so easy to encourage people to buy into the aspiration when shares were bought at $50. Might not be so easy when they're at $642. C'mon guys, believe in your paper millions; diamond hands dudes!
I'm back in Tsla after having sold 2500 shares over the last months. If you read my posts, you'll know why I sold everything. But why come back? Tsla is still the easier stock I believe will grow, it's that simple.
I think the share price is dropping because the institutional investors who brought Tesla in the S&P club are upset with Elon's venture in bitcoins without forewarning. We know a large chunk of cryptos are mined in China and that country just announced they will clamp down on mining because of the enormous energy used to mine those cryptos.
Frankly Musk should have nothing to do with Bitcoin and he should get off the Trump like Twitter feeds.
 
I can't wait to see our righteous early retail buyers, now millionaires, put their mouth where their money is, in Tesla shares. It's so easy to encourage people to buy into the aspiration when shares were bought at $50. Might not be so easy when they're at $642. C'mon guys, believe in your paper millions; diamond hands dudes!

Right here, dude. I'm long for years and my average price is $45/share. I bought a bunch more today at $574.
 
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Looks like I was wrong about Tsla share price at end of year through end of 01/2021, which has be holding steady within an 820 to 880 bracket.
Well folks, as I humbly acknowledged erring in my prediction, please allow me to gloat for a minute. My prediction was correct but only off by a couple of months. Tsla did drop to 500 from its high of 900 when all the groupies and gurus were predicting 1500.
I don't expect cred for this and in fact don't want it. The drop gave me a chance to get back in Tsla and once again put my mouth where my money is.
As I've written since my November prediction, I think the S&P big boys are not at all happy with Musk's purchase of bitcoins without being prenotified. They're basically saying, you wanted in the club? You have to play by the club's rules. There's no going back to rebellious street kid behavior until we decide to throw you out of the club.
While I don't like the puppeteers' control, I fully agree that Tesla has no place buying a crypto that is well known to consume extraordinary levels of energy to produce. It's contradictory to Tesla’s mission.
Of course, I fully expect some groupies and gurus to justify the purchase if it helps to raise the stock price; greed as no morals by definition. Are we going to experience a mission schism, one driven by the pragmatics, who believe that the end justifies the means, when the end often mean becoming a millionaire, while another group, the idealists, who demand Tesla holds to its sustainability goal over speed of delivery, if it means not wasting precious energy?
Since Tsla stock value is aspirational and its value has dropped significantly, perhaps some idealists are also cashing out because Tesla is seen veering from their expectations? It's all hard to tell....
I do expect Tsla stock price to recover this year as Musk announces bigger and better things to come while meeting his quarterly numbers. I just don't expect breaking 1000 for a couple of years though...
 
It's been a couple three months since I last wrote about my favorite source of frustration. Elon's Trump like devotion to Twitter and their similar nonsense is baffling, particularly since the SEC has already pretty much banned him from the medium if he tweets anything remotely tied to his businesses including satellite ones... that's a pretty large net. The result is what I perceive as an increasing negative image of both Musk and Tesla, without a marketing/media machine to dispel those, manufactured or not, negatives. This in turn will affect Tesla’s business if the car and company are no longer considered uber cool but the product of an arrogant, self absorbed billionaire.
Plaid presentation came and went, again with abysmally bad presentation skills from Musk. As for the car, as I have written in a prior post, the new Tesla S Plaid is all about ego, not about customer centric focus. It plays into Tesla’s fan base but, at $130k, isn't going to propel Tesla’s results.
I'm very impressed with Tesla’s tech achievements which are proof of the tech superiority of the vehicles. No one's doubting that. Does it translate into more sales? We don't know because the hot sellers aren't using that tech yet and probably won't for some time. With 2 new factories about to go live, sales numbers without production constraints will become key to Tesla’s stock price.